Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Durant and the Spirit of the Game

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Well, I rather have my deck eaten by a bunch of Durant then having Reshiram and Zekrem take a dump all over my deck. Just sayin...

I think I have to agree with vaporeon, though I haven't had a chance to face a Durant deck due to my lack of time to play lately. Still, if the choice is between someone hammering me with a big basic or losing to a win condition rarely used in the game, the latter sounds better.
 
Personally, the song "Durants go marching" plays in my head whenever I see a Durant deck being played, as I envision a straight line of 4 Durants carrying cards back to their anthille.

Or the song High Hopes "What makes that little old ant think he can move that rubber tree plant... its because he has high hopes, high hopes, high apple pie in the sky hopes"
 
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One good thing the presence of Durant as a deck has done is, for some people, add deck recovery such as Super Rod and Flower Shop Lady. Not a huge boon against Durant, but still!
You know, when Durants make an "anthill", I'm pretty sure that means a mountain. Anthill implies that Durant is tiny. Durants are huge insects.
Well, I'd say that would be making a mountain of a molehill, given the presence of Excadrill in Victory Road, the location Durant can be found.
 
Sabledonk was not against the SotG. It was a deck and still won, taking advantage of one of the three win condition, like many others would say.

Sabledonk didn't let the opponent get a turn. If you draw nothing in your opening hand going first and get donked, then at least you got a turn to play. Sabledonk went first if it started with sableye regardless of the coin flip, and didn't even allow the opponent to play. It consistently FTK'd people, even if they started with more than 1 basic! That's against the spirit of the game in my opinion. In fact, enough people found it to be a problem that an unprecedented event happened, a mid-season rotation.

That's just my opinion though. Durant let's you not only get at least 1 turn, it let's you get up to 10 turns. Sabledonk didn't even let you play the game
 
Sabledonk didn't let the opponent get a turn. If you draw nothing in your opening hand going first and get donked, then at least you got a turn to play. Sabledonk went first if it started with sableye regardless of the coin flip, and didn't even allow the opponent to play. It consistently FTK'd people, even if they started with more than 1 basic! That's against the spirit of the game in my opinion. In fact, enough people found it to be a problem that an unprecedented event happened, a mid-season rotation.

That's just my opinion though. Durant let's you not only get at least 1 turn, it let's you get up to 10 turns. Sabledonk didn't even let you play the game

That may be true but it used legal cards and won one of the legal ways to win. It's no different then getting donked by Zekrom when you did not get a turn. It's not against the SotG to win games when the way you won was legal.
 
That may be true but it used legal cards and won one of the legal ways to win. It's no different then getting donked by Zekrom when you did not get a turn. It's not against the SotG to win games when the way you won was legal.

Zekrom gives you a turn.

....If you win the Coinflip.


Sabledonk did not give you a turn. Period.
 
You could still get a turn against Sabledonk, not very likely but you could still get one by running your own Sableye and winning the flip or hope they don't get their Sableye in their hand. Ether way, the luck factor is bad for the game.
 
Durant is a deck that just forces your opponent to think outside of the usual metagame mentality. It's a speedy deck that can only be matched by speed of the same pace. There's truly nothing wrong with Durant in this way.

Again, Spirit of the Game is based on the fairness of the actual matches along with the sportsmanship of the players. That's where Spirit of the Game comes in. Durant has nothing to do with these. You guys aren't questioning whether Durant is within these limitations at all anymore but instead questioning whether Durant is beyond of the lines of causing these things to happen or whether it's fair or not.

Therefor, that being said, I'll give my input.

Durant is a fair deck to play. Therefor it's not against SotG.
Durant may cause some players to lose there collectivity or to lose there cool, but that again isn't on Durant. It's easily prevented by playing Durant in the first place, but in all honesty, it's on the Players themselves. If you can't play the game within the limits of SotG, which emphasizes and enforces respect and fairness, then you shouldn't be playing the game at all. 'Nuff said.

~MSF
 
Well, let's see whats different with Durant than with other decks and why people could call it against SotG.

1) it doesn't really interact but puts a clock on the opponent
-> we had decks like that before, see Jumpluff, Lostgar etc

2) it's kinda luck-based what cards are milled
-> any deck is luck-based by drawing cards, and with Super Rod out there a crucial mill isn't an instant loss

3) it doesn't take skill to play
-> seriously... do ZPST and Reshiphlosion take more skill?

4) it makes slower decks even weaker
-> yes, that is legit point, but on the other side, trainer lock is a big problem for Durant - I've seen decks like Chandelure beating Durant in b-o-3 cause of that

So, while Durant is annoying, it's a legitimate deck. And let's take a look at some other aspects...

-> you need to change your strategy when you face durant instead of running your deck straight forward
-> Durant doesn't donk you
-> Durant let's you play whatever you want without attacking your Pokémon, locking your trainers, or whatever
 
You could still get a turn against Sabledonk, not very likely but you could still get one by running your own Sableye and winning the flip or hope they don't get their Sableye in their hand. Ether way, the luck factor is bad for the game.

That's a lot like saying you have freedom of speech... so long as anything broadcast online or through radio or television is first submitted for approval to the government and you correctly fill out all necessary forms!:rolleyes:

Now pay close attention: Sabledonk was not against the SotG. Why? Because SotG doesn't appear to be meant to address such things. If playing a legal (but not enjoyable to face deck) was against the SotG, guess what? Most competitive decks played by skilled players would be against SotG, barring final match-ups of tournaments perhaps.

Spirit of the Game is about how you conduct yourself, not about what you run. The only way what you play can come into conflict is if TPC starts reviving some silly old card effects that were introduced as a joke (and I don't believe ever made it to the U.S.), and even then they have to take it all to the extreme! Plus if they do, it still might not make for a conflict since one could argue that they are thus redefining what is acceptable for Spirit of the Game.

So what would decks like Sabledonk actually be against? Creator's Intent. This is not given anywhere near as much wait as seeking a balanced competitive game or even an enjoyable game, let alone SotG. You can get a glimmer of this over the years, like the invention of Supporters to allow the powerful Trainer card effects that were a signature of this game to remain, while slowing down play to an appropriate pace as envisioned by the game's designers. Sabledonk arouse because of a combination of rules changes and format changes not intended to overlap.

Players are free to dislike playing against a deck they don't find it fun to lose to, but that only becomes a SotG issue if the player's attitudes and actions violate SotG; such as being a sore winner or loser.

tl;dr: Make sure you (as in everyone) know what SotG actually applies to, and that your conclusions follow your reasons: getting to the right conclusion for the wrong reason is a bad thing!
 
Otaku said:
Spirit of the Game is about how you conduct yourself, not about what you run.

This is the most reasonable thing I've heard in a long time. Major props for articulating the point so well. :lol:
 
Well, let's see whats different with Durant than with other decks and why people could call it against SotG.

1) it doesn't really interact but puts a clock on the opponent
-> we had decks like that before, see Jumpluff, Lostgar etc

2) it's kinda luck-based what cards are milled
-> any deck is luck-based by drawing cards, and with Super Rod out there a crucial mill isn't an instant loss

3) it doesn't take skill to play
-> seriously... do ZPST and Reshiphlosion take more skill?

4) it makes slower decks even weaker
-> yes, that is legit point, but on the other side, trainer lock is a big problem for Durant - I've seen decks like Chandelure beating Durant in b-o-3 cause of that

So, while Durant is annoying, it's a legitimate deck. And let's take a look at some other aspects...

-> you need to change your strategy when you face durant instead of running your deck straight forward
-> Durant doesn't donk you
-> Durant let's you play whatever you want without attacking your Pokémon, locking your trainers, or whatever

How do you loose to Chandelure, it is sooo slooow. Your mills just destroy it. The only Trainer lock I have had problems with is Mew Box , and that is only because the Vileplume/Yanmega is annying and fast. But I did beat it 3 of the last 4 times I have faced it so that matchup is getting better.
 
One good thing the presence of Durant as a deck has done is, for some people, add deck recovery such as Super Rod and Flower Shop Lady. Not a huge boon against Durant, but still!

Well, I'd say that would be making a mountain of a molehill, given the presence of Excadrill in Victory Road, the location Durant can be found.

They dont work, it may buy the player an extra turn, but they still end up decked out. The vast majority of my deck out wins my opponent had drawn 3 or fewer prizes.
 
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THey dont work, it may buy the player an extra turn, but they still end up decked out. THe vast majority of my deck out wins my opponent had drawn 3 or fewer prizes.

So either you're saying you're not that good of a player, or you need to think about the full impact of what you're saying. :lol:

First your statement says "in the majority of my deck out wins..." which really should render the whole thing void as an evaluation. Yes earlier you mentioned 40% of your wins were via deck-out... but with this little scrap of information I don't know how many of your games the deck is winning. We don't know if that means you've won 100 games that way or just 10, nor do we know the caliber of your opponent's.

Second, I don't know if your opponent drawing 3 or fewer Prizes is really that impressive, without knowing who all you faced. I don't seriously doubt your skill, just pointing out without a detailed history, nothing says all those deck out wins weren't against the least skillful players and the players who defeated you on Prizes may have done so because of that extra turn.

So while I respect your opinions, I must seek further clarification so that I can give it proper weight. If you're facing an opponent of equal (or superior skill), how likely is that extra turn or two to spell the difference between a win and a loss?
 
Durant is not broken or anything it's totally fair.
and pretty soon we'll have a Ant Eater so who cares. :tongue:
 
So either you're saying you're not that good of a player, or you need to think about the full impact of what you're saying. :lol:

First your statement says "in the majority of my deck out wins..." which really should render the whole thing void as an evaluation. Yes earlier you mentioned 40% of your wins were via deck-out... but with this little scrap of information I don't know how many of your games the deck is winning. We don't know if that means you've won 100 games that way or just 10, nor do we know the caliber of your opponent's.

Second, I don't know if your opponent drawing 3 or fewer Prizes is really that impressive, without knowing who all you faced. I don't seriously doubt your skill, just pointing out without a detailed history, nothing says all those deck out wins weren't against the least skillful players and the players who defeated you on Prizes may have done so because of that extra turn.

So while I respect your opinions, I must seek further clarification so that I can give it proper weight. If you're facing an opponent of equal (or superior skill), how likely is that extra turn or two to spell the difference between a win and a loss?

OK I have playes seven tournes with durrant
CC #1 I went 4-1
Game 1 I beat a Haxourus deck on prizes in a game I had two durants and my rotom prized, no way a turbo durant list wins this game.
Game 2 I decked out a Magenzone/Yanmega deck. One of my mills discarded two magnezones, and when he did manage to get one set up I mase it dissapear with Drifblim and coasted to the deckout win.
Game 3 I decked out a DonChamp, Aftre I milled half of this deck he finally got a Mchamp up, then a Cibalon and a Balck Belt OHKO'd him and I coasted to the victory.
Game 4 I lost T1 without getting to draw a card to ZPST who went first and had everything he needed for the donk.
Game 5 I was beating a VVV deck on prized, but my opponent begged me to stock KO'ing him and deck him out, so I retreated my undamaged Cobalion and milled him 4 turns while her drew and passed.
I finished 5th in a T4

CC#2
Game 1 I faced a Tyram, I made it last 20 minuts but this is a bad matchup and I lost before I could deck him out.
Game 2 I won on prizes vs Cobalion/Kyrum. I milles a few key cards and mid game he blew up a Voltorb and wiffed, I swept from there on.
Game 3 I won on prizes vs a Mew box with Evolution lock. His 60 HP Mews are not match for powered up Cobalion.
Game 4 I lost to a Mewbox with Trainer lock and Yanmega, I went for the deckout but he Yanmegas and trainer lock were just to much
Game 5 I won on prized vs the Turth w/Kureum Beartic. I OHKO's a Keurum with a Durant ans a black belt and then swept from there on with Cobalion
I finished 5 in a T4

CC#3
Game 1 I won on prizes vs the Truth w/Donchamp. Suprized OHKO'd a Machamp again with Cobalion/blackbelt and then took care of Donpahns with Drifloons and Won on prozed in sudden death
Game 2 I decked out a Magnezone/Eel deck. He set up super fast and was OHKO'ing my Cobalions with Magnezone and lost zoneing a lot of energy. He took five prizes on me but I catchered up an Eel and he could not retreat it. I only had 2 durrants in play but after 5 mills he was out of cards.
Game 3 Lost to the same Tyram players in CC#2 He knew my tricks and beat me a lost quicker this time.
Game 4 I beat on Prizes a ZPST. I milled both of this Pachis before he could use them and withough the energy acceleration he was too slow to KO me before I could erase his attackers with Drifloon and them take down the rest with Cobalion
Game 5 I beat by decking out The Truth w/Gothitelle. I milled him bad early and then when he finaly got a Gothitelle on the bench I catchered it up and made it disapear with Drfloon. Then by the time he was able to get a second Goth out he was down to about a dozen cards in his deck. I only lost one prize that game.
Game 6 I draw annother Tyram, lost ugly
I went 4-2 Finished 9 in a T8

CC#4
Game 1 I decked out a Magnezone/Eel Same as usual. they struggle to set up when they do I catcher up and eel, mill until they get it back to the bench, They KO me, I brign up another Durant chatcher up an eel. Rinse and reepat
Game 2 I lost to a the same Mewbox with Yanmega he set up to fast and beat me fairly easy
Game 3 I decked my way to a win over annother Magnezone eel, same plan bring up the eels and deck away.
Game 4 I won on prizes over a Chandelier/Vileplume. He was slow to get Vileplume in play and before he could do so I catcherd up and OHKO's his Dotrio with Cobalion, without being able to retreat his Chadleiers were pretty useless, and i had resistance on my side.
Game 5 I lost to annother ZPST, He took the first 5 rpizes, then I took the next 4 before he took the last one. I misplayed a turn attaching an energy to the bench when the active needed it for the OHKO< that cost me the game giving him an extra turn to build something up on the bench.
I finshed 3-2

CC#5
Game 1 I beat I was down a prize, played twins for a twins, took a prize, and then on my next turn I stupidly played twins again. And then took annother prize Did not catch it was illeagal until my oponents next turn when they playes an N and we shuffled our hands and as I cut his deck I realized I was up on prizes, wich meant we were tied when I playes my second Twins. I called a judge over explained my misplay and was given a prize penalty. This tied the game up again and it was close until I won in sudden death latter.
Game 2 I lost badly to a ZPST deck that was set up in T1
Game 3 Lost to my Wife and her Reshiboar deck. I had two durants prized, and she had the T3 win, but passed just so she could torotur me a little more. I could not do anything this game and she won on prizes.
Game 4 Lost to a Tyram deck, such a bad matchup.
Game 5 lost to ta tyram deck, thought i had a chance in this one, Started with Energy, Two Catchers and a Cobalion. T3 catchered up and OHKO'd a Qulava, was gong to do the same thing on T4 but he catched up Driffloon and I had no energy to retreat, and my hand was Two twins and a black belt. I drew and passed for 4 turns while he set up and coasted to the win
Game 6 I won on prizes over a Donphan deck. He went agro Donpah nwith 3 energy on it to OHKO my ants and did not see Drifblim coming until it was too late. When I earsed that I swept with Cobalion becuase he did not bother to set up an alterenate attacker.
I finished 2-4 my only loosing tourney

CC#6
Game 1 I lost to ZPST< he set up on T1 and I could not stay with him
Game 2 I decked out beat a Stage 1. I was loosing badly but late game I catched up a Shaymin and he coudl not retreat it until I decked him out 4 cards at a time for 3 turns.
Game 3 I lost badly ot a gohitelle. I was all set up for the Dirffblim erase on his 5 energy goth, but when I played my twins I found both blimps prized. I got one out two turns latter with Rotom but then I did not have the energy. So I juipered for 7 and wiffed. Scooped after that.
Game 4 I decked out a Magnezone/eel deck, Same story they take a few prizes, but theu eventually rn out of junk arm/Switches and something gets stuck up and I deck them out.
Game 5 I beat the Mewbox/Yanmega finally. Very strange game he just gets out one Yanmaga and nothing les game goes a few turns and he takes two prizes. then I send up Cobalion and OHKO it with a Black belt for the win. He shows me the prize he drew on his previous turn it was a Mew.
I finished 3-2

CC#7
Game 1 I get a bye free win
Game 2 I won on prizes vs the Stage 1 player from the game before. He get s a legend out but can only use it once after I Iron Break it, he is forced to retreat and sacrifice pokemon to try to OHKO me latter, but he never gets the right energy and I sweep
Game 3 I deck out the ZPST player from the day before. This time he is not set up T1 I start milling him and when he is able to start OHKO'ing my ants I respons with driffblim and Cobalions we trade prized and when time is called we are donw to one prize each. He damages a Cobalion with a Genie on T0. I look at his deck notice he has 4 cards left in his deck. I have two durants in on bench and a two in the discard pile. I have a Rivie and junk arm in hand. game over. revive, junk arm revive. Then all I need is an energy. I count the energy in my dicard pile and in play. I am two short of my total so even if i have one prized I still have one in my deck. I have 5 cards left in my deck. Play juniper. Get all of them. Get one energy. Attach it to durant retreat Coabalion and deck him out. Although we are both out of cards in our deck he looses because he cant draw to start his turn.
Game 4 I loose on prized to the Mew box Yanmega players. Change strategy and try to win on prizes, alsmost works but he is still too fast for me,
Game 5 I win on prizes vs a Fliptini deck. Just Victini 3 psychic and one Fire. He only flipss dpuble tails once, but he cant OHKO my Cobalions and they sweep to vicotry.
Game 6 I loose on prizes to a Lanturn/eel deck. Super close and I almost decked him out but he took his last prize before I could.
I go 4-2 and am 7th seed in T8
Game 1 I win on prizes. He cant get a mew out until late and My Cobalion swarm outpowers his Yanmega swarm. I am up by two prizes with two to go when he scoops to save time.
Game 2 I deck him out. He gets Mews out and is constantly Muking up my Cobalions, but I pile energy on them just to retreat them and I was able to mill 3 of his Copycat/Judge supporters early, So I am able to keep my hand 3 or 4 cards ahead of his the entire game making his Yanmegas useless, He gets two prizes but I deck him out

T4
Game 1 I loose on prizes vs Conalion/Kyurm. He takes the first prize then I take the second with Coblion, its back and forth and I think I have the win when I balck belt KO a Cobalion with my Cobalion but it is 10 damage away from the KO, but he only has a Electrode and Cleffa in play. His turn he collects fo a Kurym, blows up the Voltorb when there is only 14 cards left taking it to 7. He gets two places them on the Kurem, retreats and KO's my cobalion. Prizes are now 2-2. If i get an energy I can deck him out easy as I have 3 durants in play, All I have is a useless twins and I go dry while while he 30 spreads his way to victory.
Game 2 He sets up a quick Cobalion with tw ospecal metal and an eviolite, I erase it with Drifblim and then sweep my way to victory with my Cobalions.
Game 3 we are setting up our prizes to start when time is called. He gets a cleffa and a Tarakion, I start with a lone durant, He has a juniper I have a twins, T2 I draw a collector and retreat the Durant for a Cobalion, but T3 he junkarms for a Catcher he discarded with juniper and brings back my and for the KO.
I finish in 4th place in a T8

So thoes are my games you can decide for yourself if you think I am or am not a good player, or if my deck is or is not effecive. I amyself am very happy with it and I feel it has perfomed well above my expectations when the season started.
 
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JandPDS: I am sorry my attempt at levity and poking fun at what I felt was poor phrasing came across as serious criticism. Sorry. Though I really was looking for clarification, from what little I know of you online I would have been satisfied with something as simple as clarifying the skill level of the opponent's you're beating.

I am happy to see Black Belt being used. :)
 
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