Durant and the Spirit of the Game
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Magic_Umbreon
Researching Tower Scientist, Retired
Then you'd need Scott at least to prevent it from being topdeckable only and before you know it you've reprinted half the format!
What???
How is a card that helps you when your doing bad and supports not attacking a 'huge skill based card'?
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Because I decide when it is activated and it makes going for the quick prizes not always a good idea. The game should have many cards "that help when you are doing bad." A player shouldn't be able to just "run the table" because they opened with a better hand or got out of the gate quicker, cards like Scramble, N, and Twins promote playing the "long game" and not just trying to prize rush the opponent.
You kids these days are so spoiled with your Junk Arms and Pokemon Catchers back in my day we actually had think if we wanted to win a game of Pokemon.
This is by far one of the most conceited and rude posts I have ever read, and one that I am very surprised comes from the mouth of someone I really respect as a player. You do realize I played back then right?
I'm hoping this is sarcasm...
As far as scramble goes, it could be argued either way, and I do see your point.
bullados
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?
Never liked Scramble. I think it would be balanced if it were two Rainbows rather than 3 with that effect, maintaining the Evolution and Non-EX clauses. But I agree that there should be more "come from behind" cards with powerful but balanced effects. POW! was a great card for this. Twins is good, but I'd prefer one additional card for the effect (as it's mostly turning into "One Card Plus Twins" these days). Admin/N is a great comeback card, but it's also a great setup card as well, easily as powerful as PONT for that purpose, while still providing come-from-behind and disruption tactics necessary in the current game.
Relax it was sarcasm, I know who you are and how long you've been playing. My point was I feel to many games are simplified to a state of Pokemon Catchers and Junk Arms it's to easy for a player to simply prize rush the opponent than have to play "the long game." Take the Garevoir/Gallade era for example how many games ended because one player stole 6 cheap prizes?
Hmm, figures, but sarcasm is hard to convey over the internet.
Back then was not a whole lot different from now. If they got a fast psychic lock, you were in for a tough game. If they ran jirachi, you were in for a tougher one. But rewarding a player that is doing badly during a game in a format that you think skilled players won can be argued either way, and I respect and see your point.
Otaku
Active Member
Jay, is that really "you"? Your last post sounds like me doing a bad "Jaeger" impression. :lol: Still you may have a point even if the post sounds a little more "attitude" filled than I expected, plus even if it isn't just me reading it poorly I know from my own poor posting habits that many things can result in such a post.
Still, let me answer what you have said.
First, one does not directly choose when Scramble Energy activates, the game state does. A player chooses when to play Scramble Energy, but especially against a skilled opponent it may not Activate when you really want it to.
Of course going for quick prizes is not always a good idea. That is an observation, not a reason for bringing back Scramble Energy. Punishing true over extension is a good thing, but don't fall into the trap of using the "Yu-Gi-Oh" definition, namely where "playing the game" is basically over extension. The true definition of over-extension might not be 100% clear, and what it means in game terms varies not only from TCG to TCG but from match to match.
If a game needs a specific counter-card to punish over-extension, it is a bad sign for that game; the core mechanics or skillful use of the general card pool should suffice.
That is an opinion Jaeger, not a fact. You may believe it but I just as firmly believe the game should have few if any such cards. The general game mechanics and a few key cards should suffice. Anything more and you have an elaborate ruse hiding that the game may as well be flipping a coin to decide the winner.
Your conclusion is ill supported by your reasoning. You open that statement with something I agree with you on: a lucky open shouldn't equal an automatic win for a player. This does not justify the cards you listed. First I would fault the game mechanics/card pool for resulting in this detestable state. While I would allow for cards to "patch" the problem, the real cause should not be ignored.
Second, you keep equating N and Twins with Scramble Energy, which I find to be a grievous error. The most obvious, and simplest, difference is that N and Twins are Supporters while Scramble Energy is of course an Energy card. Think about what that means to game play: using the former you are likely cutting yourself off from your best, if not all your draw, search, and recursion cards for that turn, and barring some very specific examples you have to play them that turn.
Contrast this with Scramble Energy. You give up your Energy for the turn, but even sticking with your normal Energy attachments you can still plan ahead so that the Pokemon you are using Scramble Energy on is not the only Pokemon you have in play with any Energy attached. You likewise will have access to Trainers (including Supporters) to draw into Scramble Energy the turn you need it, unlike N and Twins. Besides a flippy Item (which has a more reliable counterpart for Energy if I remember correctly), you require an non-Supporter form of draw/search power to get N or Twins into hand the same turn you need to use it.
N is a one and done effect. Twins might technically last several turns, but it has its own balancing factors. Scramble Energy can be dropped into play early and still be saved for when the time is right. If fortunes reverse and the special effect of Scramble Energy shuts itself off, you still get :colorless: from it, which is far better than nothing. Twins is dead in hand when you are even or ahead in Prizes, while N requires more skill to play well. Not to play for a positive return (all three are pretty easy in that regard) but to play for more than some so-so draw power and so-so disruption, even when you're behind. Even if you're a single card behind, Scramble Energy can be attached for a huge bonus, and again possibly saved for later use!
Something similar to Scramble Energy might make for a good addition, but not a reprint. The main change I would suggest is having Scramble Energy discard itself at the end of the turn, since that prevents much of the abuse. After that it takes a skillful play to seize control from your opponent, and then the opponent cannot have had a very firm lead.
:lol:
I am going to take this as a joke comment, because despite the tone of the rest of the post it makes the most sense that way. Despite the undesirable aspects of this format it still requires thinking, or at least as much thinking as most of the game's life as required. Plus I seem to recall a lot of games in past formats where either you didn't have to think all that hard (you crushed me easily enough, even when I was trying to run something "serious"). I even seem to recall you had a problem with "over thinking", but perhaps that is just my memory playing tricks on me. I am after all an "old man" of 30 years who, however little my contribution was, helped steer you towards successful competitive play. :wink:
tl;dr: Two wrongs don't make a right. Scramble Energy required little skill to play, and only a specific skill set to abuse. Introduced into the current format it will just lead to wins by Evolution decks that make you feel like you were just run over by a ZPST deck. Sleep off the New Years and feel free to reply back. :thumb:
Edit: Oh and Bullados, I favor cards that a) allow you to "spend" Prizes for a bonus (like Electrode) and then cards that have varying effects based on the Prizes in play. Technically Scramble Energy falls into that, but I prefer the "less broken" ones. Personally I think the main problem is Scramble Energy doesn't discard itself and isn't variable enough; imagine if the amount of Energy provided depended on how far behind you were. Still, not discarding itself (like Boost Energy used to) is the main thing that makes it too easy to abuse.
Anyway, cards that "spend" Prizes, cards with variable effects depending on how many Prizes you have or if you're "behind", cards that get stronger based on your opponent's set-up, etc. are all cards that function as "recovery" but also feed specific types of decks. Types of decks I'd like to see more of because when it is all done right (a big "if" I know), it results in a diverse format that naturally punishes over-extension while rewarding skillful plays.
Still, let me answer what you have said.
First, one does not directly choose when Scramble Energy activates, the game state does. A player chooses when to play Scramble Energy, but especially against a skilled opponent it may not Activate when you really want it to.
Of course going for quick prizes is not always a good idea. That is an observation, not a reason for bringing back Scramble Energy. Punishing true over extension is a good thing, but don't fall into the trap of using the "Yu-Gi-Oh" definition, namely where "playing the game" is basically over extension. The true definition of over-extension might not be 100% clear, and what it means in game terms varies not only from TCG to TCG but from match to match.
If a game needs a specific counter-card to punish over-extension, it is a bad sign for that game; the core mechanics or skillful use of the general card pool should suffice.
That is an opinion Jaeger, not a fact. You may believe it but I just as firmly believe the game should have few if any such cards. The general game mechanics and a few key cards should suffice. Anything more and you have an elaborate ruse hiding that the game may as well be flipping a coin to decide the winner.
Your conclusion is ill supported by your reasoning. You open that statement with something I agree with you on: a lucky open shouldn't equal an automatic win for a player. This does not justify the cards you listed. First I would fault the game mechanics/card pool for resulting in this detestable state. While I would allow for cards to "patch" the problem, the real cause should not be ignored.
Second, you keep equating N and Twins with Scramble Energy, which I find to be a grievous error. The most obvious, and simplest, difference is that N and Twins are Supporters while Scramble Energy is of course an Energy card. Think about what that means to game play: using the former you are likely cutting yourself off from your best, if not all your draw, search, and recursion cards for that turn, and barring some very specific examples you have to play them that turn.
Contrast this with Scramble Energy. You give up your Energy for the turn, but even sticking with your normal Energy attachments you can still plan ahead so that the Pokemon you are using Scramble Energy on is not the only Pokemon you have in play with any Energy attached. You likewise will have access to Trainers (including Supporters) to draw into Scramble Energy the turn you need it, unlike N and Twins. Besides a flippy Item (which has a more reliable counterpart for Energy if I remember correctly), you require an non-Supporter form of draw/search power to get N or Twins into hand the same turn you need to use it.
N is a one and done effect. Twins might technically last several turns, but it has its own balancing factors. Scramble Energy can be dropped into play early and still be saved for when the time is right. If fortunes reverse and the special effect of Scramble Energy shuts itself off, you still get :colorless: from it, which is far better than nothing. Twins is dead in hand when you are even or ahead in Prizes, while N requires more skill to play well. Not to play for a positive return (all three are pretty easy in that regard) but to play for more than some so-so draw power and so-so disruption, even when you're behind. Even if you're a single card behind, Scramble Energy can be attached for a huge bonus, and again possibly saved for later use!
Something similar to Scramble Energy might make for a good addition, but not a reprint. The main change I would suggest is having Scramble Energy discard itself at the end of the turn, since that prevents much of the abuse. After that it takes a skillful play to seize control from your opponent, and then the opponent cannot have had a very firm lead.
:lol:
I am going to take this as a joke comment, because despite the tone of the rest of the post it makes the most sense that way. Despite the undesirable aspects of this format it still requires thinking, or at least as much thinking as most of the game's life as required. Plus I seem to recall a lot of games in past formats where either you didn't have to think all that hard (you crushed me easily enough, even when I was trying to run something "serious"). I even seem to recall you had a problem with "over thinking", but perhaps that is just my memory playing tricks on me. I am after all an "old man" of 30 years who, however little my contribution was, helped steer you towards successful competitive play. :wink:
tl;dr: Two wrongs don't make a right. Scramble Energy required little skill to play, and only a specific skill set to abuse. Introduced into the current format it will just lead to wins by Evolution decks that make you feel like you were just run over by a ZPST deck. Sleep off the New Years and feel free to reply back. :thumb:
Edit: Oh and Bullados, I favor cards that a) allow you to "spend" Prizes for a bonus (like Electrode) and then cards that have varying effects based on the Prizes in play. Technically Scramble Energy falls into that, but I prefer the "less broken" ones. Personally I think the main problem is Scramble Energy doesn't discard itself and isn't variable enough; imagine if the amount of Energy provided depended on how far behind you were. Still, not discarding itself (like Boost Energy used to) is the main thing that makes it too easy to abuse.
Anyway, cards that "spend" Prizes, cards with variable effects depending on how many Prizes you have or if you're "behind", cards that get stronger based on your opponent's set-up, etc. are all cards that function as "recovery" but also feed specific types of decks. Types of decks I'd like to see more of because when it is all done right (a big "if" I know), it results in a diverse format that naturally punishes over-extension while rewarding skillful plays.
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A quick Psychic Lock could be met with Jirachi EX (which often times left the quick Gardevoir in a worse position), or a quick Psychic Lock KO could be met with Gallade/Scramble. Take Gardevoir mirror and remove Scramble than you would see some pretty lopsided games.
---------- Post added 01/02/2012 at 12:55 PM ----------
yea it's me
My point I choose when to give you Scramble by taking a prize...you saw alot of "darn he had Scramble" but it caught nobody off guard.
Without come from behind cards, wouldn't to much of the game be decided on the opening coin flip and opening hands?
Take any game your never going to be able to remove "the strong openings" this isn't a problem with the game rather an unavoidable state.
I'm not saying Scramble, N and Twins are of the same power rather they are all "come from behind cards" both Scramble and Twins having the downside of being dead in the opening hand.
Dropping Scramble Energy early will simply have that Pokemon Catchered and KO'ed before it "goes off" I can actually see quite a few skillful plays to be made in this reguard.
Scramble Energy would by far be the most powerful of the 3 but I would be fine with that. The downsides are it can't be attached to basics, provides 1 C when tied or ahead, and it's dead in the opening hand I feel are significant disadvantages of course we will have to agree to disagree.
It just seems odd to assume that if you are a better player that scramble will make you more likely to win over a bad player using scramble.
If you are a better player, you already have a significant advantage over a worse player, scramble energy doesn't make that lead increase exponentially or anything.
If you are a better player, you already have a significant advantage over a worse player, scramble energy doesn't make that lead increase exponentially or anything.
The better player is not always going to be up in prizes. Scramble punishes a player for going to aggressive to early.
Otaku
Active Member
For the record, the better player does not always deserve to win, unless you are making appeals to something beyond the basics of the game.
If the better player makes a mistake, either playing or in deck building, that player can (as in possibly) deserve his or her loss. If you give the game away, you give it away. Bad match-ups happen, and ideally are a part of game balance.
I just see this as wanting to ignore the flaws with game mechanics and/or card design over real fix. If my deck is designed to play aggressive early on and I make no misplays, why should the game require a specific card to punish that? The only real justification is if the card pool is such that my fast, aggressive deck is overpowered compared to the best other decks can be expected to perform, and if that is the case Scramble Energy is a "patch", not a true fix, treating the symptoms and not the actual problem.
Now I will say if a Scramble Energy-like card existed that was tone-down, as I already stated, I might be able to get behind that. Scramble Energy did not work right when it was legal: for every game where it saved my hide, its existence (not my playing it) seemed to cost me two! The answer seems clear: it made matches a little more pleasant against over-powered cards, but was by adding major lucksack factors.
Now I ask you to really think about what it would do to the current metagame. How will decks like ZPST respond to Scramble Energy use, and later beatdown builds that rely on Mewtwo EX? If they can't turn around and OHKO it back, they'll have a TecH Lost Remover ready to fire off, because those are the decks that can easily afford to add one in and spam it when necessary with Junk Arm. Unless it is a deck built around Vileplume or Gothitelle. Those two will find themselves on a bit more even footing, but instead of eroding the strength of the other more dominant decks, it will merely be removing what viability was left any deck that wasn't hyper aggressive OHKO fests or could block Items.
If the better player makes a mistake, either playing or in deck building, that player can (as in possibly) deserve his or her loss. If you give the game away, you give it away. Bad match-ups happen, and ideally are a part of game balance.
I just see this as wanting to ignore the flaws with game mechanics and/or card design over real fix. If my deck is designed to play aggressive early on and I make no misplays, why should the game require a specific card to punish that? The only real justification is if the card pool is such that my fast, aggressive deck is overpowered compared to the best other decks can be expected to perform, and if that is the case Scramble Energy is a "patch", not a true fix, treating the symptoms and not the actual problem.
Now I will say if a Scramble Energy-like card existed that was tone-down, as I already stated, I might be able to get behind that. Scramble Energy did not work right when it was legal: for every game where it saved my hide, its existence (not my playing it) seemed to cost me two! The answer seems clear: it made matches a little more pleasant against over-powered cards, but was by adding major lucksack factors.
Now I ask you to really think about what it would do to the current metagame. How will decks like ZPST respond to Scramble Energy use, and later beatdown builds that rely on Mewtwo EX? If they can't turn around and OHKO it back, they'll have a TecH Lost Remover ready to fire off, because those are the decks that can easily afford to add one in and spam it when necessary with Junk Arm. Unless it is a deck built around Vileplume or Gothitelle. Those two will find themselves on a bit more even footing, but instead of eroding the strength of the other more dominant decks, it will merely be removing what viability was left any deck that wasn't hyper aggressive OHKO fests or could block Items.
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If im the best player in the world and have to play against a monkey who gets t1 zekrom /catcher and gets 5 catchers in a row ill loose anyways :lol:
In a format with no come from behind cards a bad player can be carried to victory bby his opening hand because catcher is a kind of reverse scramble, way better when youre ahead.
I love scramble but its a risky card and can be broken quite easily, e.g. empoleon md used scramble by spreading everywhere but not killing stuff, in this case you could use scramble although you werent behind at all. On the contrary..
In a format with no come from behind cards a bad player can be carried to victory bby his opening hand because catcher is a kind of reverse scramble, way better when youre ahead.
I love scramble but its a risky card and can be broken quite easily, e.g. empoleon md used scramble by spreading everywhere but not killing stuff, in this case you could use scramble although you werent behind at all. On the contrary..
So a good player is just not going to take prizes? I don't understand.
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PhadedPhione
New Member
During the Base Set era Junk Arm was called Item Finder and Pokemon Catcher was called Gust of Wind.
I loved the sarcasm though <3.
My play testing group added Durant to the gauntlet since it is a deck people play and it wins. It's not somehow wrong to win by decking, since its a legitimate win condition. Take all prize cards, run the opponent out of pokemon, or deck them to win.
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