LunarWolf21
New Member
Basic Pidgeot EX with Quick Search?
evolved pokemon as BASIC??
- Thread starter canderson
- Start date
- Status
Basic Pidgeot EX with Quick Search?
ShadowCard
Active Member
I expected to come in here and explain how an evolved basic works in the card game. Instead, I am disappointed that the course that BW has taken the game doesn't look like it is going to be reversed.
vaporeon
Moderator
At this point in the game, do you think it would even matter. Worst thing that could come from that is games go down to 20 minutes with 40 minutes top cut.
They are in too deep. If they want to fix the game at all, they would have to do a hard rotation to XY with some kind of plan to prevent the game from going through another Power Creep. If that chandy is going to be our very last BW set before the release of XY, this could mean that XY will continue the same trend. I just dont see them making a stage 2 Pokemon a basic ans it being the only one made. Then again, I've been questioning the choices that were taken with BW from the beginning.
The team that makes the cards right now need to get fired and replaced with a team that has respect for the game. BW has to be by far the worst block in the history of the game.
Otaku
Active Member
Not true; correction doesn't have to be instantaneous. It might mean newer sets feel weaker at first, though even this can be mitigated by focusing on specific Pokémon at first (ones where whatever is being "weakened" matters least to the card's overall capacity).
I have wondered if upping HP scores significantly across the board while leaving damage/energy acceleration the same or decreasing it a little would have the same balance... with older cards. Then in a rotation or two, we are on the new stuff only and things could finally be balanced.
As a reminder... the first Modified Format (Rocket-On) was kind of terrible in many ways, and largely only able to come across as an improvement because of how stale Unlimited had become at the time. The second Modified Format (Neo-On a.k.a. Neon) was a little better, but it didn't start getting "good" until Eon... so about two years to fix the problems back then.
---------- Post added 06/30/2013 at 04:27 PM ----------
Addendum: This feels kind of fake to me, though at the same time plausible that I can't just assume it is a fake... which tells you what my confidence is with R&D for the game, lately (or whomever has caused the game to take its overall current course the last few formats).
fuzzywuzzy229
New Member
Here's hoping to get this card (I love me my Vilegar 
)
Gengar-EX - Psychic - HP180
Basic Pokemon
Poke-Ability: Fainting Spell
Once during your opponent's turn, if Gengar-EX would be Knocked Out by damage from an attack, you may flip a coin. If heads, the Defending Pokémon is Knocked Out.
[P] Shadow Room: Put 4 damage counters on 1 of your opponent's Pokémon. If that Pokémon has any Poké-Abilities, put 8 damage counters on that Pokémon instead.
[P][C] Poltergeist: Look at your opponent's hand. This attack does 50 damage times the number of Trainer, Supporter and Stadium cards in your opponent's hand.
When Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Dark x 2
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1
)Gengar-EX - Psychic - HP180
Basic Pokemon
Poke-Ability: Fainting Spell
Once during your opponent's turn, if Gengar-EX would be Knocked Out by damage from an attack, you may flip a coin. If heads, the Defending Pokémon is Knocked Out.
[P] Shadow Room: Put 4 damage counters on 1 of your opponent's Pokémon. If that Pokémon has any Poké-Abilities, put 8 damage counters on that Pokémon instead.
[P][C] Poltergeist: Look at your opponent's hand. This attack does 50 damage times the number of Trainer, Supporter and Stadium cards in your opponent's hand.
When Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Dark x 2
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1
vaporeon
Moderator
Here's hoping to get this card (I love me my Vilegar
Gengar-EX - Psychic - HP180
Basic Pokemon
Poke-Ability: Fainting Spell
Once during your opponent's turn, if Gengar-EX would be Knocked Out by damage from an attack, you may flip a coin. If heads, the Defending Pokémon is Knocked Out.
[P] Shadow Room: Put 4 damage counters on 1 of your opponent's Pokémon. If that Pokémon has any Poké-Abilities, put 8 damage counters on that Pokémon instead.
[P][C] Poltergeist: Look at your opponent's hand. This attack does 50 damage times the number of Trainer, Supporter and Stadium cards in your opponent's hand.
When Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Dark x 2
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1
Calling it now, Quad Gengar EX Laser.
Here's hoping to get this card (I love me my Vilegar
Gengar-EX - Psychic - HP180
Basic Pokemon
Poke-Ability: Fainting Spell
Once during your opponent's turn, if Gengar-EX would be Knocked Out by damage from an attack, you may flip a coin. If heads, the Defending Pokémon is Knocked Out.
[P] Shadow Room: Put 4 damage counters on 1 of your opponent's Pokémon. If that Pokémon has any Poké-Abilities, put 8 damage counters on that Pokémon instead.
[P][C] Poltergeist: Look at your opponent's hand. This attack does 50 damage times the number of Trainer, Supporter and Stadium cards in your opponent's hand.
When Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Dark x 2
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1
We might get a Gengar EX but I doubt it's going to be anything close to yours as that makes Gengar Ex a more powerful card than anything released in BW TCG and besides, Pokemon with abilities only have one attack in BW. Also if by some luck we got this exact card, a power creep for it's format would be a complete understatement.
fuzzywuzzy229
New Member
LOL, yeah I highly doubt that card would ever exist. One can only dream. But I guess this is a move in the semi-right direction since these are Stage 2s...in basic form so I guess we getting the best of both worlds?
Reprinting Fainting Spell would be a complete, unmitigated disaster for the CCG.
I'm kinda disappointed, but all this really says to me is one thing:
PCL probably after some months of playtesting found that with the power level of the basic, legendary pokemon-EX, it became impossible to balance evolved pokemon-EX.
What I mean is... they could've made a stage 2 CHandelure EX. But to justify having to evolve into it, it would've had to have ungodly stats. Easily 220+ HP. My team and I estimated that to really 'WORK' they would have to approach more like 240-260 HP.
Which would make them utterly insurmountable to any rogue strategies. And would require completely absurd damage output to be truly viable... which would completely shutter the format into only the most obscenely powerful cards being competitive. Basically you'd nullify any chance of 'playing around' these gargantuan stage-2 EX and you'd be forced into a raw numbers game, which is something the Pokemon CCG has never devolved into, thankfully.
I'm kinda disappointed, but all this really says to me is one thing:
PCL probably after some months of playtesting found that with the power level of the basic, legendary pokemon-EX, it became impossible to balance evolved pokemon-EX.
What I mean is... they could've made a stage 2 CHandelure EX. But to justify having to evolve into it, it would've had to have ungodly stats. Easily 220+ HP. My team and I estimated that to really 'WORK' they would have to approach more like 240-260 HP.
Which would make them utterly insurmountable to any rogue strategies. And would require completely absurd damage output to be truly viable... which would completely shutter the format into only the most obscenely powerful cards being competitive. Basically you'd nullify any chance of 'playing around' these gargantuan stage-2 EX and you'd be forced into a raw numbers game, which is something the Pokemon CCG has never devolved into, thankfully.
ShadowCard
Active Member
Yes, it does seem like they are in deep but I thought things were starting to change with Boundaries Crossed. There are some strong stage 2 pokemon in BCR and PLS that could bring the game back into balance if a rotation into at least DEX-On was done. Like Otaku, I disagree that a hard rotation is needed. The PL fast-paced basics were a match for the heavy beatdown of DP stage 2s, effectively reversing course on that trend yet creating a balance that did not send those stage 2 pokemon to the shoebox. Afterward, HGSS pokemon were slow and clunky compared to the PL's basics and set up a new metagame for when PL rotated. So, like Otaku said, a new block focusing on specific pokemon with a more balanced power level may not make much of an impression now but it will alter the trend in the game when it comes time to rotate, which again is what I thought BCR was going to accomplish.
Despite reading the pokebeach update, I'm still wondering if it is possible that the card is a fake or in some way unplayable and is only meant for collecting purposes, like a jumbo card.
Last edited:
LunarWolf21
New Member
I'd be surprised if Chandelure's the only Stage 2 as a Basic EX in the set.
The last EX format before this one (Delta species season) featured both Basic EXs and Evolved EXs. While the Evolved EXs were truly raid boss monsters with big attacks for their time and HP above 130, the Basic EXs would often only have 1 good attack and less than 100 HP. They were not impressive in terms of stats and were often run as techs. Surely, a single glimpse at the current meta would make people realise that the same approach cannot be used this time.
Moving to the present...I don't know why they would print a card like this. Chandelure EX is not really impressive for an EX and could just have been the next Stage 2 Chandelure and nobody would be surprised. In fact even as a normal stage 2 that's worth 1 prize, I would call it underpowered and not strong enough in the meta.
But instead, the company took a different approach and incorrectly labeled it a Basic Pokemon without any further explanation. This explanation might follow later and it may indeed be the gimmick of the next Japanese set to feature Evolved EXes that are labeled as Basics. This series will undoubtedly feature 2 or 3 really good EX cards as its main selling point. I just cannot imagine why they would take this turn. There are plenty of Basic Pokemon that do not have an EX card yet, and most sets only have about 5 new EXes anyway.
Whether these cards will help towards 'fixing the game' is completely irrelevant. All we can conclude at this point is that this single spoiler will probably not affect the meta decks, and there will be probably be sought-after cards in the set that will, or the set will not sell well.
I doubt the spoiler is fake. The card on the bottom left showcases a tip of White Kyurem EX's flamboyant hairstyle, which is confirmed to be a reprint in the same set, as far as the article provides. If a graphic artist were to fake a card, it seems unlikely that he'd put just the tip of another card next to it. If I would be interested in creating a fake card, I'd place it surrounded by the other confirmed EX cards very clearly, so we can all see how much it looks like the other EXes.
Moving to the present...I don't know why they would print a card like this. Chandelure EX is not really impressive for an EX and could just have been the next Stage 2 Chandelure and nobody would be surprised. In fact even as a normal stage 2 that's worth 1 prize, I would call it underpowered and not strong enough in the meta.
But instead, the company took a different approach and incorrectly labeled it a Basic Pokemon without any further explanation. This explanation might follow later and it may indeed be the gimmick of the next Japanese set to feature Evolved EXes that are labeled as Basics. This series will undoubtedly feature 2 or 3 really good EX cards as its main selling point. I just cannot imagine why they would take this turn. There are plenty of Basic Pokemon that do not have an EX card yet, and most sets only have about 5 new EXes anyway.
Whether these cards will help towards 'fixing the game' is completely irrelevant. All we can conclude at this point is that this single spoiler will probably not affect the meta decks, and there will be probably be sought-after cards in the set that will, or the set will not sell well.
I doubt the spoiler is fake. The card on the bottom left showcases a tip of White Kyurem EX's flamboyant hairstyle, which is confirmed to be a reprint in the same set, as far as the article provides. If a graphic artist were to fake a card, it seems unlikely that he'd put just the tip of another card next to it. If I would be interested in creating a fake card, I'd place it surrounded by the other confirmed EX cards very clearly, so we can all see how much it looks like the other EXes.
Last edited:
Otaku
Active Member
I hope it is a fake, but if I were convinced it were a fake, I wouldn't need to hope, would I? :lol:
Actually, faking cards (or similar media) is something of an art form, and most of your argument for why it can't possibly be a fake strikes me as just what is required of a good fake. Your approach would come across as "trying too hard".
This is also separate from it being an "error". There is the option related to being a fake, being a doctored real card. And yes, it could be real, in which case I have to rethink even my minimal involvement in this game. I know some have pointed out its probably a filler chase card that won't mean a thing to competitive play, but I consider releasing such cards foolishness. TCGs are complex enough where things often are more or less effective than expected, including full on reversals of "awesome" and "fail". Yu-Gi-Oh is notorious for this.
King Piplup
Active Member
S2's as basics isn't new...What do you think SP was?
Otaku
Active Member
A bad design decision; where as most earlier "Evolutions-as-Basic" Pokémon were horribly underpowered, we ended up with the opposite problem from SPs. Pokémon-EX in general wasn't really "new" either. So what's your point?
I am annoyed at it because I consider Evolution to be a central mechanic to this game and even if I didn't, this still doesn't look like something that will improve the game; best case scenario is they end up being harmless filler. Worst case is that it further knocks game balance out of whack.
ShadowCard
Active Member
Would they have been as good without the support they had? SPs slow down a lot without Energy Gain. No T1 Deafen, Chop Up, Claw Swipe, Target Attack, Split Bomb, Bite. All of those that Cyrus Conspiracy enabled you to use T1 become T2 minimum. The first time around, they didn't have LvX, correct?
But how EX are handled is new. When EX was ex, they were excluded from every kind of support until the last few sets. Now, EX are great because they have the advantage of all of the support every other pokemon has.
Otaku
Active Member
I am beginning to think that the game needs to get its core mechanics and balance down, as well as start regularly representing the Pokémon within it, before it gets too hung up on new "gimmicks". Such new twists can be great... when we have a solid foundation. When we don't, we get what happened with many Pokémon-EX; they aren't overpowered just because of their HP, but because of how fast they can be brought to bare.
S'bit like a rock band that literally just got their act together fussing with breaking new ground and innovating not because that is what they need most at the moment, but because they are already worried about going conformist, selling out, or becoming stale. It might matter long term, but at the moment they probably should polish their fundamentals.
I was responding to someone pointing out that Evolved-Pokémon-as-Basics wasn't new. Yes, Pokémon-EX are not the same as Pokémon-ex, nor are their relative interactions with cards the same... just like Evolved-Pokémon-as-Basics won't be the same this time using the Pokémon-EX mechanic as they ere using the SP. The differences are just more pronounced due to the marrying of the two mechanics, in a sense.
A reminder; Pokémon-ex weren't inherently overpowered either. Once again, fundamental design practices meant some were crazy powerful, others were pure filler. My concern is that by violating what has appeared to be the guidelines for Pokémon-EX in what is likely the last set of the block will be used as an excuse to ignore the problems with game design/balance we have.
SleepyScruffy
New Member
Oooh, that sounds amazing. Must have!
The Pinecone
New Member
This is the amount of legendaries per gen. Note that legendaries are most certainly added in the 2nd installment of the Gen, and this list included those additions.
Gen I: 5
Gen II: 6
Gen III: 10
Gen IV: 14
Gen V: 15 (counting B Kyurem and W Kyurem as seperate legendaries)
There is usually 6-8 EX's per set. They would have had plenty of new EX's to get them through til the next worlds. They really don't need to start making non-legends to get them by. They would only NEED to dip into non-legendaries if they plan on offering much more, say 12 EXs a set. If they follow the standard 6-8, they could even go all legendaries through Worlds 2015 if they had a couple new prints of legendaries and hit all the forms (Make a land-forme Shaymin EX, or incarnate-forme Thundurus EX). It just seems like a weird move. They seemed on pace to end EX's nicely after X/Y (although the new legendary in "Z" would fall have to be the start of a new mechanic).
My only guess (if this is not fake) is that they realize EX's sell and they want to cash in on the idea and turn popular pokemon into EX to stir sales, especially among collectors, but at the expense of the integrity of the game. Here comes Pikachu EX!
Gen I: 5
Gen II: 6
Gen III: 10
Gen IV: 14
Gen V: 15 (counting B Kyurem and W Kyurem as seperate legendaries)
There is usually 6-8 EX's per set. They would have had plenty of new EX's to get them through til the next worlds. They really don't need to start making non-legends to get them by. They would only NEED to dip into non-legendaries if they plan on offering much more, say 12 EXs a set. If they follow the standard 6-8, they could even go all legendaries through Worlds 2015 if they had a couple new prints of legendaries and hit all the forms (Make a land-forme Shaymin EX, or incarnate-forme Thundurus EX). It just seems like a weird move. They seemed on pace to end EX's nicely after X/Y (although the new legendary in "Z" would fall have to be the start of a new mechanic).
My only guess (if this is not fake) is that they realize EX's sell and they want to cash in on the idea and turn popular pokemon into EX to stir sales, especially among collectors, but at the expense of the integrity of the game. Here comes Pikachu EX!
- Status