Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

gengar -- viable for worlds?

one thing i've been thinking about is the promo toxi G tech in the gengar decks...

using it as a lux tech-- is it even really worth playing?
without nrg gain, it HAS to sit on the bench a full turn

rendering it vulnerable to brightlook/ infernape 1hko
so... almost useless ?

thoughts?
 
Gengar could be viable for Worlds, but it needs to watchout for Palkia Lock. Gengar cannot do much and setup with 8.turns of Mesprit Psychic Binding and Power Spraying. Dialga G is also a bad matchup, with Trainer Locking and such. But who knows?
 
No, Volt, it's really not. In my experience, as much as I REALLY don't want to admit it, Inferay is a FAVORABLE matchup for gengar. I'm not sure by how much, but plenty to be noticable.
 
Stigma said:
No, Volt, it's really not. In my experience, as much as I REALLY don't want to admit it, Inferay is a FAVORABLE matchup for gengar. I'm not sure by how much, but plenty to be noticable.
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Wow, why do people keep saying this? I swear I'm the only one who thinks the total opposite and has factual proof to back it up...

Too lazy to type this out yet again:

Shen said:
I'm not saying Gengar was the play (In Masters, at least), but I don't think you're giving it enough credit. There was actually 2 in T8. And I must be missing some sort of secret tech in Luxrape because, as far as I know, it actually doesn't have that great of a match-up with Gengar.. I played against a Luxray variant myself, whiffed energy the first 3 turns, and still won with my opponent having 2 prizes left. I'm not the only player actually, so don't just take my word for it, there's two factual Nats reports, one of them being a T8 Gengar player:

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104193

Notice he plays FOUR DPL's in Swiss, which I'd say counts as a Luxray variant, and also a Luxrape in T16.

Another...

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103935

He beats FOUR Luxrapes in Swiss at Nats, and another in a side event.

These were the only two Gengar reports I read, but I'm sure that's pretty concrete evidence that Gengar has a decent time with Luxray and friends.

...

Seniors ... ended up having 1st, 2nd, and 3rd all as Gengar variants. Notice 4th as well, a Luxrape that lost to Gengar!
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So, really, how does Luxrape win Gengar? I know Fainting Spell is random, but it does win games... and Luxrape has to attack it straight up. Uxie/Skuntak/Crobat plays are rendered useless by Nidoqueen as well.
 
Gengar can give Luxape trouble and requires thought and skill to win, but in my testing Luxape is 7-1 against Gengar with the loss due to being benched from a bad start. That includes games with 100% Fainting Spell flips. Take out the Claydol against most Stage 2 decks early into the game and be ready to Power Spray any Uxie and they will run into problems. My build runs 2 Unown G and Claydol ( which helps alot to put 2 trainers to the bottom each turn. ) Fainting Spells are pesky, but most KO's will be Gastly, Claydol, Baltoy, Crobat G from the bench.
 
I'm sorry to break it to ya but personal experience doesn't have much pull in talking match-ups, because I personally have a great time against Luxrapes. And so now we go nowhere with the discussion with my word against yours.
 
How else can you work out match-ups?

Personal experience of playing the match.

Endless theorymon.

That's it, really.

If someone finds that they can nearly always beat Gengar with Luxape then either . . .

1. They have a winning strategy
2. It's a good match up
3. They haven't tested enough to get a truly accurate picture
4. They are playing against a bad list
5. They are playing a bad opponent

I know nnaann, and I know that he isn't testing against bad lists or bad opponents, so it must be either 1, 2, or 3.
 
My logic behind "personal experience counting for nothing" is because, really, what do you think of when you see some guy walk into a thread and go "Machamp beats Gengar, I've never lost a match to it!" I usually bring that up to dispel such things, because usually this involve points 4 and 5 that you mentioned (Without insulting the player). And, too, people can always just say things, y'know?

A third option in talking match-ups I think is pretty concrete is tournament results, but that may fall under personal experience as well. But really, a winning decklist beating these match-ups says alot. This option aside, I'll generally just believe people I respect on the here about match-ups (Usually). You being one, I guess Nnaann must have cracked open something on Gengar.

Question I do have though, for Nnann, have you tried against any Power locking Gengar lists?
 
Luxape has a clear advantage over Gengar, almost every game. Major disruption. Getting both Nidoqueen and Gengars out at the same time is hard without Claydol, and if Luxape has a Spray or two handy, it's game over. Luxape can play a hand with few trainers and Guard Claydol + Bronzong. After that, Poketurn cleans up opponent's prizes, or it nabs more with Luxray. Fainting Spell is inevitable with the standard Luxape, however by the time that it gets to that point in the game, it should not matter anyways.

Nidoqueen is the only viable attacker, yet unfortunately (or maybe not...) Nidoqueen takes three energies and also does not have Fainting Spell. As soon as two energy placements (maybe even one) are committed to a Queen, Bright Look swaps it out. The situation is advantageous to Luxape almost no matter what.

Gengar makes this match up favorable is Luxape whiffs on the early disruption, but consistent builds can do it about 75-80% of the time.
 
How isn't Gengar a good attacker against Luxrape? The whole deck is powers. Drop a Mesprit or get an Alakazam out to take care of your Claydols, I actually ran 3-3 with my Gengar for the obvious Power Spray. That should give you steady draw, protected Claydols, and anti-Guard for Luxrape.

The only way any deck has ever had anything on Gengar is via Powers. If you shut them off, even for a turn, Gengar dominates the board.

But again, we dive into Theorymon. According to RESULTS, I don't get how a Gengar can go against FOUR Luxrapes unanswered at Nats and not prove a decent match-up. If you're unwilling to agree Gengar has the favor, at least don't say Gengar loses. Another facing one of the more competitive builds in T16.
 
Shen said:
My logic behind "personal experience counting for nothing" is because, really, what do you think of when you see some guy walk into a thread and go "Machamp beats Gengar, I've never lost a match to it!" I usually bring that up to dispel such things, because usually this involve points 4 and 5 that you mentioned (Without insulting the player). And, too, people can always just say things, y'know?

A third option in talking match-ups I think is pretty concrete is tournament results, but that may fall under personal experience as well. But really, a winning decklist beating these match-ups says alot. This option aside, I'll generally just believe people I respect on the here about match-ups (Usually). You being one, I guess Nnaann must have cracked open something on Gengar.

Question I do have though, for Nnann, have you tried against any Power locking Gengar lists?
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I have tested this Matchup as accurately as I think I can. I've played a large number of games, against a good opponent ( 2nd at Nationals ) and both are solid lists. I've tried both decks in the matchup and if anything, our testing was biased towards Gengar since me and my brother ran it for States and Nationals and have alot more success and experience with it than Luxape. I also tried some techs in my Gengar like adding Cynthias Feelings to help when Claydol is taken out to try and improve the matchup.

I haven't tried any Power Locking Gengar lists. Our Nationals and BRs where before RR, and since we can't make Worlds we haven't tested as much as we would have. Alakazam is an intresting choice, but it would make the deck more clunky which hurts playing Luxape as much as it helps it.
 
Shen said:
How isn't Gengar a good attacker against Luxrape? The whole deck is powers. Drop a Mesprit or get an Alakazam out to take care of your Claydols, I actually ran 3-3 with my Gengar for the obvious Power Spray. That should give you steady draw, protected Claydols, and anti-Guard for Luxrape.

The only way any deck has ever had anything on Gengar is via Powers. If you shut them off, even for a turn, Gengar dominates the board.

But again, we dive into Theorymon. According to RESULTS, I don't get how a Gengar can go against FOUR Luxrapes unanswered at Nats and not prove a decent match-up. If you're unwilling to agree Gengar has the favor, at least don't say Gengar loses. Another facing one of the more competitive builds in T16.
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The only thing Gengar can hit is leveled up pokemon. Luxape choses when to do so, and can also Poketurn. Alakazam is a double edged sword, you can't stop all of my powers, and eventually you'll run low on cards. In fact, all of my testing is against Gengar/Queen with a tech Alakazam. In fact, Luxape can live without powers easily, I don't get where you see power reliance at all. The deck is all basics, with cheap energy costs. As long as Cyrus exists, powers will not be needed for draw.

Also, there is almost no way outside of a god hand that Alakazam will hit the field before Luxray LvX.

Luxape won nats. There's your results. In my own experience, I beat three of four Gengars at nats.
 
Pooka didn't play a single Gengar in top cut though.

By power reliance I mean Guards and Bright Looks. Luxrape can't possible kill off ALL my Claydols/Baltoys (Which I do find myself getting 2 around T2/3), and Alakazam is at its best potential early game before you run low on cards, which you can use to your advantage to draw more on Cosmic Power. I actually DO believe I can get a T2 Alakazam most the time (I ran 3-3 Claydol, 4 Candy, 4 BTS, 2-0-2 Alakazam, 1 Uxie, 3 Luxury Ball, and 4-3-4 Gengar just to give you an idea of my consistency). In this case, it'd come down to who goes first (Since T1 Alakazam is not realistic at all even if I go second). I never had any trouble with Luxrape and I was confident playing this build at Nats. I believe if Gengar has steady draw it wins this match-up, but if you think otherwise I see no reason to continue the conversation as it will only be my opinion against yours (As well as both of our experiences).

Y'know, honestly, we're talking about each others' builds, which actually is difficult to use in discussing match-ups since no one else really plays them except ourselves and perhaps a few playtesting buddies. I still believe Gengar wins either way, but I'm sure you still stand by your opinion anyways... lol.

nnaann said:
I haven't tried any Power Locking Gengar lists. Our Nationals and BRs where before RR, and since we can't make Worlds we haven't tested as much as we would have. Alakazam is an intresting choice, but it would make the deck more clunky which hurts playing Luxape as much as it helps it.
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Gengar/Alakazam was perhaps the most consistent list I've played all year. I went 7-1 in Swiss at Nats losing only my last match to the only other undefeated, so I really don't think Alakazam really killed the consistency. I'll admit I didn't play against any Luxrapes, but I did play against an SP deck with Luxray in them (Winning it). I went with the idea of straight consistency and tried to avoid any techs (Only played Unown G as a tech, 2 of them, I guess you can count Uxie as one... but Alakazam was played as 2-0-2 as I said so I don't believe it to be a tech). Ideally I'd get Gengar and Alakazam on the field T2 (It's ideal, but sometimes Alakazam didn't make it until T3) to stop any Guards.
 
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Shen said:
Y'know, honestly, we're talking about each others' builds, which actually is difficult to use in discussing match-ups since no one else really plays them except ourselves and perhaps a few playtesting buddies. I still believe Gengar wins either way, but I'm sure you still stand by your opinion anyways... lol..
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We can agree to disagree.
 
Shen said:
Pooka didn't play a single Gengar in top cut though.

By power reliance I mean Guards and Bright Looks. Luxrape can't possible kill off ALL my Claydols/Baltoys (Which I do find myself getting 2 around T2/3), and Alakazam is at its best potential early game before you run low on cards, which you can use to your advantage to draw more on Cosmic Power. I actually DO believe I can get a T2 Alakazam most the time (I ran 3-3 Claydol, 4 Candy, 4 BTS, 2-0-2 Alakazam, 1 Uxie, 3 Luxury Ball, and 4-3-4 Gengar just to give you an idea of my consistency). In this case, it'd come down to who goes first (Since T1 Alakazam is not realistic at all even if I go second). I never had any trouble with Luxrape and I was confident playing this build at Nats. I believe if Gengar has steady draw it wins this match-up, but if you think otherwise I see no reason to continue the conversation as it will only be my opinion against yours (As well as both of our experiences).

Y'know, honestly, we're talking about each others' builds, which actually is difficult to use in discussing match-ups since no one else really plays them except ourselves and perhaps a few playtesting buddies. I still believe Gengar wins either way, but I'm sure you still stand by your opinion anyways... lol.



Gengar/Alakazam was perhaps the most consistent list I've played all year. I went 7-1 in Swiss at Nats losing only my last match to the only other undefeated, so I really don't think Alakazam really killed the consistency. I'll admit I didn't play against any Luxrapes, but I did play against an SP deck with Luxray in them (Winning it). I went with the idea of straight consistency and tried to avoid any techs (Only played Unown G as a tech, 2 of them, I guess you can count Uxie as one... but Alakazam was played as 2-0-2 as I said so I don't believe it to be a tech). Ideally I'd get Gengar and Alakazam on the field T2 (It's ideal, but sometimes Alakazam didn't make it until T3) to stop any Guards.
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Your build sounds pretty intresting, and that sort of build would have a better chance against Luxape. But most Gengar builds aren't like yours, I've just been testing against a standard build I would expect to play in tournaments. Would you mind PM'ing me the list?
 
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