Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Head Judge Banning Coins

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Cyrus said:
Well, if they don't want Pokemon being associated with gambling, then they've failed at it miserably (given our use of dice + the video game creators' constant spamming of gambling centers in RBY=DPP lol).

Still, I shouldn't let that comment about dice take over the concern about PCL's intent in the mechanics of flips and RPS. If it turns out that, sure, they couldn't car less about randomization, then that puts this discussion in a completely different light.
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*shrug* Seems like it matters since that's the only reason coins are given special treatment. Coins are special cause Japan says they are.

Aside from their reasoning, it really just makes logical sense. You need a randomizer with 2 outcomes, and there happens to be just such a thing that has been around for thousands of years, called a coin. If they wanted a randomizer with more than 2 outcomes they probably would've chosen a different randomizer.

Honestly, a coin is just a two sided die.
 
Card Flip game, Arcade Game, Goldenrod Game Corner?

What's the picture featured on Gambler? What's those in Blaine's hand on Blaine's Gamble?

The picture of the Card Flip Game and Arcade Game were altered for US print. Japan sounds fine with it. It is when it gets outside of Japan that people are afraid of a gambling association.

Ditto said:
Aside from their reasoning, it really just makes logical sense. You need a randomizer with 2 outcomes, and there happens to be just such a thing that has been around for thousands of years, called a coin. If they wanted a randomizer with more than 2 outcomes they probably would've chosen a different randomizer.
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Gotta agree with this. The simplicity of using something with 2 outcomes already in existence.

Sounds like it boils down to a cultural difference. Japan just interprets the "coin" a lot more strictly. Outside of Japan, we do not care as long as the randomizer can be reduced to "heads" or "tails," which the cards also call for. What does it matter what you use as long as it boils down to a 50% chance between those two outcomes in a timely fashion?

There was also the rumored uncanny ability of Japanese players to reliably flip heads at world championships...
 
ShadowCard said:
Card Flip game, Arcade Game, Goldenrod Game Corner?

What's the picture featured on Gambler? What's those in Blaine's hand on Blaine's Gamble?

The picture of the Card Flip Game and Arcade Game were altered for US print. Japan sounds fine with it. It is when it gets outside of Japan that people are afraid of a gambling association.
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Yeah, IDK, just what they say apparently. I don't know if it's still this way or not, but there's always been a big cultural emphasis on respecting those in higher positions, even if those people don't make sense. Title and status has always been very important in asian cultures. To say that someone of higher status is wrong is very bad manners.

ShadowCard said:
There was also the rumored uncanny ability of Japanese players to reliably flip heads at world championships...
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Cultural bias by americans' disdain of coins.


Interesting how this argument is always so heated because of two different cultural ways of thinking.
 
If coins can be so "easily manipulated", then why aren't YOU using one?

I remember at worlds last year I flipped heads on a reversal and the player from mexico actually takes my coin, flips it 5 times, gives me a mean face, and continues to play. that guy was a jerk. Good thing I beat him in sudden death ;)


Inb4spiritofthegame (because everyone travels to other states to compete for spirit of the game) /sarcasm
 
^And that's where the significance of PCL's interpretation of coins comes in. Do they consider it cheating if someone perfects his or her coin-flipping skills? That's what really matters.
 
Cyrus said:
^And that's where the significance of PCL's interpretation of coins comes in. Do they consider it cheating if someone perfects his or her coin-flipping skills? That's what really matters.
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They would IF and ONLY IF you could actually PROVE without a doubt that the person was manipulating the coin. Which is pretty much impossible to do without confession.
 
This thread is pretty depressing to read.

So, let me get this straight. If my opponent insists on using a coin as a randomizer, and he is able to land heads 9/10 times because he has mastered the teqnique to do so, there is nothing I can do to prevent him from doing what is, basically, cheating? Because according to the rules he is doing nothing wrong?

Very depressing.
 
How could you tell if the 9/10 heads was because he 'mastered the technique' or just random chance? I'm sure I've flipped 9/10 heads before and I don't know any of these 'techniques', and would not be happy to get called a cheat over someone's sour grapes.

I don't believe it is possible to learn a technique that would guarantee 9/10 flips during a Pokemon match if the flip and the coin are both legal.

People get lucky runs on flips during a tournament whatever they use.
 
Okay let's put it this way instead. I know for a fact that my opponent knows how to manipulate coin flips. It is irrelevant how I know this, but let's say he's an old friend of mine, who once told me he had mastered the skill to manipulate coin flips and he even taught me how to do it.

I'm in a tournament and I'm playing him. Is there anything I can do to prevent him from playing with a coin, since I know he is manipulating the flips. Anything?
 
baby mario said:
How could you tell if the 9/10 heads was because he 'mastered the technique' or just random chance? I'm sure I've flipped 9/10 heads before and I don't know any of these 'techniques', and would not be happy to get called a cheat over someone's sour grapes.

I don't believe it is possible to learn a technique that would guarantee 9/10 flips during a Pokemon match if the flip and the coin are both legal.

People get lucky runs on flips during a tournament whatever they use.
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Is it any better if its only 6/10? (probably along the lines of the best participant in that study a couple pages back?)

Even if it's 6/10, and you lose because you go 2nd, does that make you feel better?

Even if I just had the slightest hunch my opponent could be a '6/10 flip master', I would have doubts to the legitimacy of any flip. Just use a dice and the problem is solved. It's so simple, I can't believe people resist it.
 
Are we really sure that dice can't be manipulated as well? I have no idea, but I bet if I googled, I'd find a ton of people claiming they could do it.
 
Flipping coins is part of the game. You practice all other aspects of your game, so why stop when it comes to flipping coins? And just because you personally call something cheating doesn't make it so. I'm sure the game designers know more about how they want the game THEY created to work than you...
 
Ken_the_Turtle said:
They would IF and ONLY IF you could actually PROVE without a doubt that the person was manipulating the coin. Which is pretty much impossible to do without confession.
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Even with a confession, does it not really matter? What matters is that the coin is fair and impartial. Skill of flipping a coin does not factor into the rules.
 
ShadowCard said:
Even with a confession, does it not really matter? What matters is that the coin is fair and impartial. Skill of flipping a coin does not factor into the rules.
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Yes it does

'Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Cheating include:
 Drawing extra cards.
 Taking cards from the discard pile and adding them to your hand or deck.
 Offering some form of compensation to an opponent for a concession.
 Altering match results after the conclusion of the match.
 Playing with marked cards.
 Lying to event staff.
 Arbitrarily adjusting the Special Conditions or damage counters put on any Pokémon in play.
 Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.
 Attempting to manipulate a random result.
 Stacking your deck.
Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Disqualification
Tier 2: Disqualification'
 
^Not if PCL considers coin-flips as anything other than purely random events. Which is why it'd be really, really useful if someone could ask them...*Hinthint nudgenudge @ Play! Pokemon*

If we assume that coin flips can be manipulated to the point of being less than random, and if those non-random results are allowed by PCL, then just what do they consider them? Tests of physical skill?
 
QD4U said:
Okay let's put it this way instead. I know for a fact that my opponent knows how to manipulate coin flips. It is irrelevant how I know this, but let's say he's an old friend of mine, who once told me he had mastered the skill to manipulate coin flips and he even taught me how to do it.

I'm in a tournament and I'm playing him. Is there anything I can do to prevent him from playing with a coin, since I know he is manipulating the flips. Anything?
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And I know for a fact that your opponent DOESN'T know how to manipulate coin flips.

It's physics guys, unless you can control the entire environment, then you can't manipulate a coin flip based on the coin flipping rules. The same is true for dice. So even IF you were somehow able to do it (you know, control the weather and size of space you're playing in and temperature and people's breathing and everything else in the world) then you could do the same thing with a die which makes them no better.

Remember, a coin is just a two sided die.
 
Ditto said:
And I know for a fact that your opponent DOESN'T know how to manipulate coin flips.

It's physics guys, unless you can control the entire environment, then you can't manipulate a coin flip based on the coin flipping rules. The same is true for dice. So even IF you were somehow able to do it (you know, control the weather and size of space you're playing in and temperature and people's breathing and everything else in the world) then you could do the same thing with a die which makes them no better.

Remember, a coin is just a two sided die.
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If there's something I have learned while reading this thread it's that you CAN in fact learn to manipulate coin flips. And now you're trying to tell me that's not possible...?
 
QD4U said:
If there's something I have learned while reading this thread it's that you CAN in fact learn to manipulate coin flips. And now you're trying to tell me that's not possible...?
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What you have learned is that some people believe that coin flips can be manipulated.

That's not the same thing.
 
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