honest mistake or unfair advantage or cheating?
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NoPoke
Active Member
Every card has an exactly equal probability of appearing at any given position. Given the vagaries of PRBS generators and the limits of 32bit arithmetic that just isn't going to happen.
A deck containing no pairs or larger clumps would be unusual (approx 10% ). Why do players think that a uniform random distribution means no pairs *shrug*. The uniform part applies to the probability distribution not the outcome.
A deck containing no pairs or larger clumps would be unusual (approx 10% ). Why do players think that a uniform random distribution means no pairs *shrug*. The uniform part applies to the probability distribution not the outcome.
meganium45
Active Member
I think NoPoke is being generous with only prize card penalties for some serious shuffling issues.
Some would consider stacking the deck outright cheating, and Pokémon has raised the penalties of such action, THIS YEAR, to include punishments such as a LIFETIME BAN.
I have not studied this video, but on a first look, it looks like he sets 2 parts of his deck, then does a half deck shuffle. The usual mid-cut plays RIGHT into this.
Vince
Some would consider stacking the deck outright cheating, and Pokémon has raised the penalties of such action, THIS YEAR, to include punishments such as a LIFETIME BAN.
I have not studied this video, but on a first look, it looks like he sets 2 parts of his deck, then does a half deck shuffle. The usual mid-cut plays RIGHT into this.
Vince
what's the 'henry prior issue'?
NoPoke
Active Member
Who said anything about only a prize card penalty? Right now I think players are getting away with nothing so even *only* a prize card would be a step up.
---------- Post added 06/26/2013 at 05:25 PM ----------
@SD pokemon: Henry has improved since the Virginia Regional. The top cut have a video...
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Glumanda
Rulings Compendium Translator
Unfortunately, there are two threads on this topic, so I will choose this one.
After watching this video, I have to say that this is a clear case of "insufficiently randomizing your deck". I mean, in the end, Zach is presenting a completely unrandomized deck. He looks in the cards, resorts some things and then there is NOT ONE SINGLE ACTION, I would consider as shuffling.
In this situation, everything ranging from Prize Loss to DQ is possible based on how the talk with the player will go.
And don´t get me beginning with: "Huh, he is sooo nervous". The third game is the game where incentive to cheating is bigger because you need to win it if you want to win the match.
In my opinion, we need a passus in the rules strictly forbidding declumping in the pre-game shuffling. Within shuffling procedures during the game the issue might be a little bit different (although I´m not really buying this), but during the pre-game shuffling there is no need at all to pick up your deck after you shuffled and sort around cards. I mean before picking up the deck, Zach has a sufficiently randomized deck. If he wants to get the game going, he can stop right there!
In a randomized deck, you might have one Juniper on your starting hand, you might have two, or your might have even all four. Each of these scenarios is possible. The last situation is of course a big disadvantage. By declumping and then doing a light shuffle you are increasing the odds of not having two Junipers at once during your game by a good amount, giving yourself a huge advantage. And when players are asked, they even answer something like: "I do not want to draw two Junipers at once.", practically admitting that they are actively trying to alter the odds in their favor. Jeez, say something like this at a Magic tournament and you are insta-DQed facing a severe suspension.
All in all, it is pretty obvious that an unfair advantage has been gained. The question, if it is an honest mistake or cheating cannot be answered by this video alone, principally a judge would have to run an investigation on this issue at site. IMO, honest players do not need to declump.
After watching this video, I have to say that this is a clear case of "insufficiently randomizing your deck". I mean, in the end, Zach is presenting a completely unrandomized deck. He looks in the cards, resorts some things and then there is NOT ONE SINGLE ACTION, I would consider as shuffling.
In this situation, everything ranging from Prize Loss to DQ is possible based on how the talk with the player will go.
And don´t get me beginning with: "Huh, he is sooo nervous". The third game is the game where incentive to cheating is bigger because you need to win it if you want to win the match.
In my opinion, we need a passus in the rules strictly forbidding declumping in the pre-game shuffling. Within shuffling procedures during the game the issue might be a little bit different (although I´m not really buying this), but during the pre-game shuffling there is no need at all to pick up your deck after you shuffled and sort around cards. I mean before picking up the deck, Zach has a sufficiently randomized deck. If he wants to get the game going, he can stop right there!
In a randomized deck, you might have one Juniper on your starting hand, you might have two, or your might have even all four. Each of these scenarios is possible. The last situation is of course a big disadvantage. By declumping and then doing a light shuffle you are increasing the odds of not having two Junipers at once during your game by a good amount, giving yourself a huge advantage. And when players are asked, they even answer something like: "I do not want to draw two Junipers at once.", practically admitting that they are actively trying to alter the odds in their favor. Jeez, say something like this at a Magic tournament and you are insta-DQed facing a severe suspension.
All in all, it is pretty obvious that an unfair advantage has been gained. The question, if it is an honest mistake or cheating cannot be answered by this video alone, principally a judge would have to run an investigation on this issue at site. IMO, honest players do not need to declump.
vaporeon
Moderator
^So people who declump are cheating by your own words then? That would also mean that "honest" players all shuffle the same way and "sufficiently" shuffle their decks. I can also say that "honest" players roll dice instead of flipping coins. Should also be cautious of a player who says they rather flip coins because they get better results? The play who rather flip coins dont think they are cheating or at least think I think they are cheating. All of this is subjective.
Players who declump can be "honest" players. "Honest" players also dont rule shark opponents and would rather play the game then win on technicalities. Honest players play by the rules of the game.
You put way too much faith of what "honest" really is.
Players who declump can be "honest" players. "Honest" players also dont rule shark opponents and would rather play the game then win on technicalities. Honest players play by the rules of the game.
You put way too much faith of what "honest" really is.
K2theAblaM
New Member
2:00 min in...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOFi-tOsro
Henry organizes his deck Pokemon/TTS/energy and proceeds to double nickel with 4 riffles after.
Glumanda
Rulings Compendium Translator
Roflcopter alert!
Let me explain it to you:
Suppose you are a honest player, but you are declumping. Because you are honest, you go afterwards and shuffle thoroughly and sufficiently. After you have done this the odds of "bad" card distributions are the same as they were before declumping. So what exactly is the purpose of declumping then? If you are honest and accept the probabilites of this game and show this by a superb shuffle after declumping, why do you need the declumping? You had a sufficiently randomized deck before the declump (just talking about pre-game shuffling here), why do you want to do it again?
Some declumpers cheat.
There are definitely honest declumpers out there, who are just performing a completely unnecessary, superflous action. These people do not need to declump, right?
Let me explain it to you:
Suppose you are a honest player, but you are declumping. Because you are honest, you go afterwards and shuffle thoroughly and sufficiently. After you have done this the odds of "bad" card distributions are the same as they were before declumping. So what exactly is the purpose of declumping then? If you are honest and accept the probabilites of this game and show this by a superb shuffle after declumping, why do you need the declumping? You had a sufficiently randomized deck before the declump (just talking about pre-game shuffling here), why do you want to do it again?
Some declumpers cheat.
There are definitely honest declumpers out there, who are just performing a completely unnecessary, superflous action. These people do not need to declump, right?
Because pile shuffling is still able to be heavily manipulated a la double nickel?
Swordfish1989
New Member
The problem is that declumpers don't recognize that cards showing up next to each other does not mean that the deck is insufficiently randomized. If I shuffle my deck thoroughly and I somehow end up with all cards in perfect alphabetical order, it is still randomized. After he pile shuffled and saw, say, 2 Blastoises together, that's random.
I used to de-clump, but now I just opt to do a good shuffle after searching through my deck. If you shuffle thoroughly the clumps you saw will likely undo themselves anyway...
EDIT:
Plus, wasn't there a pretty huge MTG cheat who used to cheat by pile shuffling? Something along the lines of, if you pile shuffle a deck enough, in the same order, you can get the exact desired outcome whenever you want it..
I used to de-clump, but now I just opt to do a good shuffle after searching through my deck. If you shuffle thoroughly the clumps you saw will likely undo themselves anyway...
EDIT:
Plus, wasn't there a pretty huge MTG cheat who used to cheat by pile shuffling? Something along the lines of, if you pile shuffle a deck enough, in the same order, you can get the exact desired outcome whenever you want it..
homeofmew
Active Member
Well I understand mathematically pile shuffling is not TRUELY random. But the issue is, this is only really pulled off when they have their deck already stacked and then pile shuffles followed by a weak riffle. This would never fly in pokemon, pile shuffling with 1 weak ripple. Also you can shuffle your opponents deck. I heard people tell me but tina the damage is already done. The best way to insure a random deck is to put it in 4 pieces and shuffle them together, I find this a good way.
@ swordfish yes there is, he even explains how to do it, however it like I said requires a pre set deck before the pile shuffle followed by a weak shuffle. problem with his logic is if anyone even shuffles his deck again it will screw it up.
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ShuckleLVX
Active Member
You forgot to mention how, after the second pile shuffle, he holds the deck in such a way that he can see the bottom card of each stack he picks up, and pauses between each stack.
The things people do to win a game..
Title is meaningless.
"Sorry for speeding officer, I didn't know."
Doesn't matter either way.
Just shuffle your best without viewing cards.. And play with the deck gives you. Welcome to Pokemon, the game of chance and where anything can happen.
Title is meaningless.
"Sorry for speeding officer, I didn't know."
Doesn't matter either way.
Just shuffle your best without viewing cards.. And play with the deck gives you. Welcome to Pokemon, the game of chance and where anything can happen.
I think this is about more than randomizing your deck though.
If I play a "Search" card, I can look at my deck and determine what cards are prized. A "search" card allows you to do that.
Playing a "shuffle" action does not automatically carry with it a "look at your deck" component. Why should I (or my opponent) be able to get this additional information simply because we are being directed to randomize our decks?
A shuffle does NOT automatically mean "learn what is in your deck/prizes."
I agree with you for mid game/early game shuffles.
What we're looking at here, though, are pre game shuffles.
In that case, looking at your deck just puts you back to where you were before you started shuffling.
Vegeta ss4
Iron Chef Leader
With this big rise of cheating, I have always been a guy to cut my opponents deck, but now I feel forced to shuffle their deck. I do have a question, what happens when you shuffle your opponents deck and a card flops out of the shuffle and revealed? Obviously it is done by accident, but I do understand why an opponent would not like that. It takes away a lot of secrecy of the match, but what is the proper procedure for this event? Game loss, warning, prize penalty, etc?
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