illegal attacks/steps during a turn, pt. 2

[edwarpy]

PokePop has a good point here


In my opinion after asking for and receiving a take-back if a player does not return "the favor" in some manner then -yes, it is incredibly rude. And since it IS an option then unless some extremely poor sportsmanship or something outrageous occured then it would be difficult to access a penalty for this.

Ledyba, I really appreciate your approach and SotG, but,

League play is for fun, tournament play is to win. Pokemon offers both levels of play for both types
of player. When I play league, take back your last immediate play all you want. Change your mind
about energy attachment, go ahead. But I tell my trainers, slow down. Think first. At a big tournament
your opponent may/will not be so gracious.

So, I'm 2-2 at a state tournament, so is my opponent. I make a too-quick energy attachment and
say 'Whoops, mind if I put it here instead?' We're both out of top cut. Nevertheless, my opponent
tells me, 'Ok, go ahead, but I'm probably the only person here that would let you take it back'.

I laugh! No you're not! I would let you change your mind about such a small, just-did-it thing.

But, would I, if we were both not out of the running for a Pokemon State Championship? Nope.
And neither would he. OP Premiere Events are play-to-win. Attention to detail and no misplay
is definately part of the game.

Anyway, I really wanted to say hi, and offer you the other perspective. When we ever get to play
I'll give you a take-back....maybe.

 

[NoPoke]

regarding the phased / phase free approach to pokemon tcg. (in particular the presence or otherwise of a rewindable entry into the attack step when the attack cannot legally occur.)

There was a long discussion about this. It is not cut and dried obvious that either approach is correct. So POP gave us a rule to follow. It is the same rule for everyone. All judges follow it. I'm fairly sure that POP checked with Japan, certainly with Yasu on the existance of an attack step.

Tournament play is different to league play. I would disagree with anyone who asserts or suggests that not allowing takebacks shows a lack of graciousness or SotG by any player who is trying to win. At the high end all that seperates the best is the number of minor mistakes that they make. That can be an incredibly slim margin.

 

[SteveP]

Regarding take-backs in tournaments, IMO, any player who requests take-backs is the SOTG violator (besides possibly violating game rules). They made a mistake, and rather than "live with it," they are attempting to undo a possible disadvantage, and conversely, undo a possible advantage gained by their opponent.

Nevertheless, take-backs are persmissable, if your opponent allows, so just like concessions (by themselves) can never be considered as collusion, take-backs (by themselves) can't be considered SOTG or rule violations.

Yesterday, time was called in a BZ match I was playing. It was my turn. I was behind in prizes; however, I used Empolean to KO two Pokes and go ahead on prizes. Had time NOT been called, it would have been tough for me to win, but possible. I was playing a good friend, but a very competitive one. I asked myself, would he concede to me in a similar situation? I doubted it, so I applied the Golden Rule and chose NOT to concede. (BTW, he didn't ask for me to concede. He's better than that.)

At tournaments, I always doubt that take-backs will be returned, so I always deny them, and I never ask for them either. For me, asking for a take-back in tournament play is rude. Then, if given and not returned, the extreme rudeness escalates to Unsporting Conduct. I find it interesting that some professors/judge don't view extreme rudeness as a form of Unsporting Conduct.

 

[Lawman]

Regarding take-backs in tournaments, IMO, any player who requests take-backs is the SOTG violator (besides possibly violating game rules). They made a mistake, and rather than "live with it," they are attempting to undo a possible disadvantage, and conversely, undo a possible advantage gained by their opponent.

Nevertheless, take-backs are persmissable, if your opponent allows, so just like concessions (by themselves) can never be considered as collusion, take-backs (by themselves) can't be considered SOTG or rule violations.

Yesterday, time was called in a BZ match I was playing. It was my turn. I was behind in prizes; however, I used Empolean to KO two Pokes and go ahead on prizes. Had time NOT been called, it would have been tough for me to win, but possible. I was playing a good friend, but a very competitive one. I asked myself, would he concede to me in a similar situation? I doubted it, so I applied the Golden Rule and chose NOT to concede. (BTW, he didn't ask for me to concede. He's better than that.)

At tournaments, I always doubt that take-backs will be returned, so I always deny them, and I never ask for them either. For me, asking for a take-back in tournament play is rude. Then, if given and not returned, the extreme rudeness escalates to Unsporting Conduct. I find it interesting that some professors/judge don't view extreme rudeness as a form of Unsporting Conduct.

SteveP: I respect this post. I agree with much of it. I hardly get to play anymore, except at league. I allow take backs all the time at league, helping to teach them or even suggest they attach the energy somewhere else because it .....XYZ (and I explain why this works better for them). Likewise, I did allow a take back playing in a State Championship in 2007. I was playing a pokemom and just felt it was the right thing to do, regardless of if it would cost me the game or not (it was early game) I ended up winning that game, and it felt better bc I allowed the takeback.

Keith

 

[Prime]

In the case of a take-back, does the player who made the mistake still get the penalty?

 

[Lawman]

In the case of a take-back, does the player who made the mistake still get the penalty?

They can be assessed a penalty for tourney tracking, depending on the level of tourney and what the take back was for. If it was a simple energy drop in the wrong place, and the oppo allows it, probably not a penalty. It is a case by case basis. If the take back involved an illegal attack and the oppo let them go back into the turn phase, so an energy can be attached, windstorm used, etc, then yes.....the penalty needs to be given and tracked.

Keith

 

[SteveP]

In the case of a take-back, does the player who made the mistake still get the penalty?

Yeah, like Lawman said, take-backs don't remove penalties, and probably should be tracked if some rule was violated. I say "probably" because I've actually seen some PTOs who don't track light-weight cautions (ie., forgot to discard a supporter).

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

SteveP: I respect this post. I agree with much of it. I hardly get to play anymore, except at league. I allow take backs all the time at league, helping to teach them or even suggest they attach the energy somewhere else because it .....XYZ (and I explain why this works better for them). Likewise, I did allow a take back playing in a State Championship in 2007. I was playing a pokemom and just felt it was the right thing to do, regardless of if it would cost me the game or not (it was early game) I ended up winning that game, and it felt better bc I allowed the takeback.

Yeah Keith, it's kind of easy to give take-backs (and not considered rude) when:

- you're playing a new/young player
- you're playing family or friend
- your opponent is getting hand-crap and he's losing badly

In some of these situations, I've actually offered take-backs even when the player doesn't request them.

In highly competitive, age-separated tournament play, I'd rather "scoop" than ask for a take-back, even if I've given take-backs in the situations listed above. But that's just me.

 

[The Gorn]

The main problem I have with take-backs is that elite players don't need them. It's one of the things that discriminates them from, well, me. Really good players don't make mistakes.

I've never asked for a take-back and probably never will. I give them in things like pre-releases and late rounds of events (hey, we're both 3-3 and it's the last round. Does it really matter?) but probably won't do it if I'm in a competitive situation.

 

[Tentacruel13]

I know the exact reason for this. When Jacob said Ice Shot instead of Icy Wind and when I Crystal Beached Dylan and he didn't notice he couldn't use Verdant Dance but he did anyway. Lots of game play errors on my opponents' halves(remembers illegal dice).

 

[yoyofsho16]

It is sad to say, but less-generous players are the ones that tend to win tournaments, at least in my area. Newer players are really nice about it, and let you take back, but older more experienced players tend to use opponents' mistakes to their advantage. Not that they don't have that right, but it is becoming a sort of strategy in some ways.

 

[edwarpy]

It is sad to say, but less-generous players are the ones that tend to win tournaments,

Sad...or wise? The song says, 'You teach me, and I'll teach you'. I've been taught a time or two.

When me and my son play, we usually 'train', work out our decks. Right about now, we start to cruuuunnnch.
Right up front I tell him, take your time, think about it, ready, 30 minutes, no slop. It's a lie that practice
makes perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.