Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Importance of decklist breeds netdeckers

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If you dont want your super cool deck list leaked to the public, dont post it on the internet.

That's a pretty true comment. It almost seems inevitable for content found on Underground to leak out because of this.

Because paying to read it yourself is not a license to distribute it to others. Just because you buy the newspaper doesn't mean you can scan its contents and post it on your own website.

I'm sure someone is allowed to read the newspaper and talk about it to their friends and family who haven't read it. Thus, I doubt SixPrizes could stop people from talking about the Underground articles with their friends physically and digitally.

UndergroundInformant perhaps took it too far, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Underground topics find their way onto other forums.

who cares. the decks were bad anyway.

real top players keep their lists secrets. the UG is not a secret. is a facade that the people who run the UG use to make themselves seem more important in the metagame than they really are by posing as "secretive" and "seclusive".

I think this is an interesting comment. I don't have any reply to it, but I thought I'd at least quote it.

I think you're spot on here, someone that netdecks card for card is not going to win an event. The only reason you'd want to keep a deck secret is if you either want to keep the surprise element of the deck or have a specific tech in it that isn't widely known. If either of those reasons are true then the player isn't going to post the deck anywhere online, let alone the 6P underground. Looking at the 3 lists that were posted here earlier (saved them to notepad because I knew the threads would be deleted) there is nothing that special about them

i didn't see the lists but i can tell you that whatever they post on the underground is not what they'll be playing come tournament time.

So there were at least 2 people that felt the lists posted weren't that amazing, and I felt the lists were still in the early stages and would differ greatly than their final tournament versions.

I wonder why lists like these couldn't be posted in regular SixPrizes articles.

(although it's always interesting to look at the Trainer lines of "good" players to grab some ideas for future deckbuilding) so I don't see the big deal.

Isn't it interesting? How many people have looked at World Championship pre-made decks? How many people scan big tournament pictures in hopes of figuring out the lists players run? Like you, I did look over the lists because I was curious how well known players may construct a deck, even if it lacked crucial techs.
 
I'd like to point out, for those of you that think that real lists don't get posted on 6PUnderground, that there have been multiple instances of week 1 states lists being posted before week two. Meaning that top players have shared the lists that they've used in events in time for other players to use that information in other major events. Given that, I don't see how you could say that the lists on Underground aren't quality.
 
meh I kinda feel like it is the writer's fault, should they get upset over this. Don't post a list on the internet, or a site that has 250+ members.
 
If you forced everyone to play 'rogue' there would be no 'rogue' . . . just everyone playing a bunch of random bad decks. Where's the skill in that?

Wouldn't you say that there is much more skill needed to win in such a format. It would be (and is if the rotation sticks) difficult to prepare a ton of matchup-specific strategies going into the event. What does this cause? THE ABILITY TO THINK ON YOUR FEET. When you don't know what's coming next, the best players will have the most success because they know how the game works and are they are able to think farthur ahead and delve into a deeper web of theoretical possibilities. In the format we are hopefully leaving, the opposite of a blank slate format, many decisions can be correctly made by just thinking one turn ahead because decklists are all extremely similar.
 
The issue is that we have a User Agreement and Terms and Conditions which legally say that content on 6P is not to be reposted to other sites in the manner it was.

Whatever you think of me, SixPrizes, SixPrizes Underground, the deck lists, etc... that's all irrelevant considering the legal matter. It's as simple as that.
 
Wouldn't you say that there is much more skill needed to win in such a format. It would be (and is if the rotation sticks) difficult to prepare a ton of matchup-specific strategies going into the event. What does this cause? THE ABILITY TO THINK ON YOUR FEET. When you don't know what's coming next, the best players will have the most success because they know how the game works and are they are able to think farthur ahead and delve into a deeper web of theoretical possibilities. In the format we are hopefully leaving, the opposite of a blank slate format, many decisions can be correctly made by just thinking one turn ahead because decklists are all extremely similar.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that it takes the skill out of true rogue deckbuilding - the ability to make a deck which counters the meta.
 
meh I kinda feel like it is the writer's fault, should they get upset over this. Don't post a list on the internet, or a site that has 250+ members.

When you look at this from another angle though, take a look at big game review corporations like IGN and
Gamespot. They are both free sources of information for the gamer community, and most of them have information regarding games WAY in advance. These guys have games from the developers as early as a month before release, and they're sworn to secrecy on what they give out to the public until launch. They're allowed previews, but we don't see Reviews of the game at least not until the launch or a little before or after. Gamestop gets their games before street date, and they're not allowed to break street date under any circumstance. Same goes with Target and Wal-mart and pokemon TCG items (Even though Target has broken street date countless times)

Josh and Chris put their information up here in a section of Sixprizes that has user agreements and terms of service, people have to pay for this information, and using this information to give to everyone else is kind of cheating the system and Sixprizes out of how they work. In essence, its "breaking street date" of decks that people could be playing at nationals. I'm sure neither Chris or Josh wanted the entire mainstream community to know of their decks, and I know I'd be mad myself if that happened.

This undergroundinformant unless I'm mistaken had like no posts, so its either a new member of these forums or someone with an existing screen name already here who didn't want to be caught. IMHO, if you're not going to use your real account, its apparent this person knew what he was doing is wrong, which speaks of my opinion on the matter.

Do I approve of netdecking myself? I'd be lying if I said no. When I made top cut at Nationals during the GG season, I actually was browsing Pokegym a couple nights before and found someones list of Banbliss. Now, it wasn't the same list everyone suddenly started playing, but it was a list I liked and did everything I wanted it to do against GG. Is it wrong? I don't think so. There are a lot of people who are not skilled at making decks, and this is a good base to base your decks off of, maybe even to help you find out what your decklists could look like in the future. I make decks for people at my league all the time. They put no work into it except for buying the cards, can that be considered netdecking if I put my time into making a list for them that they can't make themselves?

All in all, theres a reason that information is paid for. Those of you calling the decks hash and stupid, you likely don't realize that the people who have made these deck lists are widely revered across the pokemon community. Chris Fulop is one of the most extremely skilled players in this entire game, and I dare you to speak otherwise. I've played enough games with him (and I'm not a bad player by any means) and lost enough games to him to realize that he is in a completely different league of play. His decks are impressive and full of creativity. I don't know much of Jwittz other than that he's "Kind of a big deal" across many forums and he's known pretty well for his statistical input and that he plays Sablelock similarly to myself. Technically, by posting these on the forums, you've pretty much ripped off all the people who got their information legitimately by paying for it, which is not a pro move at all.

UndergroundInformant perhaps took it too far, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Underground topics find their way onto other forums.

I actually did a search on the Beach and other major TCG sources and found them to not be around. The only other source we could consider it reaching is Facebook, and usually by word of mouth, its probably all over the internet by now off of that alone as you can't really track that unless you're friends with people who have UG content.

who cares. the decks were bad anyway.

I lol'd.
 
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The issue is that we have a User Agreement and Terms and Conditions which legally say that content on 6P is not to be reposted to other sites in the manner it was.


While I respect that and the site, the User Agreement isn't legally enforceable for the contents of the decklist as the cards themselves have not been licensed to 6P for exclusive use and for 6P to successfully enforce any copyright law therein specifically. The article which accompanies a decklist is obviously another story as it's the original work of the writer. So long as the article (which would only have to contain at least 12 points of difference for it to not be infringement) wasn't published along with the decklist, then 6P has no legal claim to it. The most that could come out of this for the offender, under Terms and Conditions, is a loss of privileges to the site without refund.

I'm really surprised the lists (and the user him/herself so it appears) were removed from the Gym to be honest as other SD's have been leaked from other team based sites and they have always remained posted.
 
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The whole point of playing 'rogue' is to use a deck which counters the meta and has the element of surprise.

If you forced everyone to play 'rogue' there would be no 'rogue' . . . just everyone playing a bunch of random bad decks. Where's the skill in that?

There will be a bunch of bad deck if all people do is netdeck. The game should be,

1- Find a card or cards you like
2- See what you can combo with what you like
3- Add counters for your decks weaknesses
4- Tech against what YOU think can hurt you
5- Cover your bases

Any good deck builder, and there are a lot of them, will do well. It's what sets the good players apart from the bad one. It will also help fix the Spirit of the Game and more people would feel better about a win or an loss.

---------- Post added 05/07/2011 at 01:48 PM ----------

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that it takes the skill out of true rogue deckbuilding - the ability to make a deck which counters the meta.

Playing rogue is not always about meta counters. It's just playing what you like.
 
There will be a bunch of bad deck if all people do is netdeck. The game should be,

1- Find a card or cards you like
2- See what you can combo with what you like
3- Add counters for your decks weaknesses
4- Tech against what YOU think can hurt you
5- Cover your bases

Any good deck builder, and there are a lot of them, will do well. It's what sets the good players apart from the bad one. It will also help fix the Spirit of the Game and more people would feel better about a win or an loss.

---------- Post added 05/07/2011 at 01:48 PM ----------



Playing rogue is not always about meta counters. It's just playing what you like.


I have to disagree with that last statement. As a player who has a history of playing Rogue, it's only a Rogue deck if it has some meter of success. You can build unique decks; decks with your favorites are perfectly acceptable, but the criteria for a successful rogue deck among the competititve community is some meter of success. For example, I'm a Michigan football fan. Last year we ran a 3-3-5 defense under our coach Rich Rodriguez. Not many teams run that defense. Does that mean the defense is better than the more common 4-3 schemes? Nope. Michigan had one of the worst defenses in the league last year. It was unique but it wasn't rogue. The coach, unable to adapt to the talent he had available, continued to coach in the only way he knew how. He had previous success with the system but ulitmately couldn't adapt to a new conference and team(Parallel to adapting to a new format) Ultimately, the lack of success had with the defense resulted in the firing of the head coach.

However, I am also a Packer fan. The Packers defensive coordinator, Dom Capers introduced a blitz package called the Psycho package. This blitz package capitalized on the strength of the Packers defense, Clay Matthews and an incredibly deep linebacking core. It saw some level of success in both the regular season and post season and ultimately, the defensive coordinator of the Packers, as well as the entire team, recieved the greatest accomplishment in the game, winning the Lombardi trophy.

Rogue deck building is a lot like the above. Oftentimes, you find a card that you feel has flown under the radar and test several concepts with it. You find which of your ideas play to the cards strength and offer good synchronization, and dismiss those that don't. Anybody who builds Rogue will tell you that no idea is 100% original. You can never be sure that nobody has ever thought of your idea before. I see people post an idea on the gym and get depressed when people say they've already thought of it. That's the difference between a player who wants to be recognized for making unique decks, and a player who wants to COMPETE with rogue decks. The casual player will give up once he realizes somebody beat him to the punch with his idea. The rogue player will focus on making the list the best he can and hope that his personal touches and ideas are enough to take the deck to the next level.

Sorry about the rant, but I'm really tired of Rogue being lumped in with unique. Most rogue decks are unique in some way, but only a fraction of unique decks are capable enough of countering the metagame and becoming rogue.
 
Playing rogue is not always about meta counters. It's just playing what you like.

We obviously have different ideas about what a rogue is.

To me, 'playing what you like' is about fun decks. Some cards are just bad, no matter how much you like the Pokemon and how hard you try and make them work. My favourite Gen V Pokemon is Lilligant. I can make a fun deck with her but there is nothing that I or anyone else can do to make her competitive. There are much better cards than Lilligant out there, and if I want to win, it would be mental of me to use a poor card just because I like the Pokemon.

To me, a 'rogue' deck IS a deck that goes outside of meta builds to find something that counters the meta. What you are talking about I see as fun/casual/league decks.
 
I guess you have a point in that but thats how I play rogue. I play with what I like. It's just hard to be 100 percent when you see 8 topic in deck help for Zekrom.

---------- Post added 05/07/2011 at 02:26 PM ----------

We obviously have different ideas about what a rogue is.

To me, 'playing what you like' is about fun decks. Some cards are just bad, no matter how much you like the Pokemon and how hard you try and make them work. My favourite Gen V Pokemon is Lilligant. I can make a fun deck with her but there is nothing that I or anyone else can do to make her competitive. There are much better cards than Lilligant out there, and if I want to win, it would be mental of me to use a poor card just because I like the Pokemon.

To me, a 'rogue' deck IS a deck that goes outside of meta builds to find something that counters the meta. What you are talking about I see as fun/casual/league decks.

I see you point on that as well but all my competitive decks are fun decks.
 
I steal a quality product from your store.
I decide to give it away for free.
Would you be mad?

I like the "these lists are bad" posts. When you consider what the UG staff have achieved in this game compared to what the average poke gym player has accomplished it just makes me :nonono:
 
It's the 6 Prizes private forum featuring in-depth articles by respected players who will also offer advice. It costs $15 a month to gain access.

(I think that's an unbiased way of putting it).
 
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that it takes the skill out of true rogue deckbuilding - the ability to make a deck which counters the meta.

I still don't understand your argument. If you're a rogue player, you should love netdecking. It condenses the format to a much smaller range of relevant deck choices and, furthermore, specific card choices in those decks. Without netdecking, there would be no way to build a deck that has a very strong matchup against luxchomp, for example. Netdecking shows people the best possible techs to run and in what proportion regarding the rest of the deck. Without it, the number of possible sp techs you could go against are limitless. This is true for any deck in any situation.
 
I still don't understand your argument. If you're a rogue player, you should love netdecking. It condenses the format to a much smaller range of relevant deck choices and, furthermore, specific card choices in those decks. Without netdecking, there would be no way to build a deck that has a very strong matchup against luxchomp, for example. Netdecking shows people the best possible techs to run and in what proportion regarding the rest of the deck. Without it, the number of possible sp techs you could go against are limitless. This is true for any deck in any situation.

You took what I said out of context.

I was responding to this post

I dislike net decking all together. I put months into my list and would hate it if someone copied it. The game should force people to play rogue decks. that way we have pure deck builders and go into tournaments not know what is being played. The most skilled should win, not the person who copied a deck list.

I was saying that a format where everyone was 'forced' to play rogues would take the skill out of 'true' rogue deckbuilding.
 
I steal a quality product from your store.
I decide to give it away for free.
Would you be mad?

I like the "these lists are bad" posts. When you consider what the UG staff have achieved in this game compared to what the average poke gym player has accomplished it just makes me

First off, if it was stolen from "my" store and then given away, I wouldn't care that it was given away afterwards, only that it was stolen in the first place. Second of all, it was a paying customer who obtained the information. Thirdly, at least some of the information on six prizes could be considered just as stolen as it is in this case. I made a rogue deck that my brother has been using in seniors in states. With it, he has yet to lose a match. After Chris Fulop checked his deck at regs, he used our idea in an article on 6p. Granted, I have not read the article (I don't subscribe to UG), so I don't know what he said about it, but he sold the concept to subscribers none the less.

---------- Post added 05/07/2011 at 03:02 PM ----------

I was saying that a format where everyone was 'forced' to play rogues would take the skill out of 'true' rogue deckbuilding.

I see what you're saying. Without a solidified format or metagame, it is impossible to create a concept to counter it. So....... I think we agree with eachother.
 
I'm really surprised the lists (and the user him/herself so it appears) were removed from the Gym to be honest as other SD's have been leaked from other team based sites and they have always remained posted.

I believe they were removed by the request of the owners of sixprizes as well as JWittz.
 
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