Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Is intentionally scooping moral?

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The problem is worse in Magic: The Gathering - because there are draws. You see a top cut where, in the final round, both players just decide to draw. In a three-round draft tournament, in the third round (8 players, 3 rounds), first and second choose to draw and then are placed first and second, still.


In my opinion, it is as moral to concede to your opponent to get them in to top cut as it is to beat them with no advantage other than to make sure they DON'T get a spot in top cut.
 
I will always be of the belief that the game should be decided at the table, not by draws or concessions. The only time I will concede would be to my son in a tourney. I generally judge/run tourneys and when I get a rare chance to play, it is fun. (Although it is nice to show that PTOs can still play this game too!) I dont need to win ag'st my son. I played 1 CC this yr. 5th and last rd of swiss, my son and I are 3-1 and get paired. It is only a t4. I know the winner makes cut. We play the game, but I would have scooped it I was winning. He ended up kicking my butt that game. (The decks were 55/45 match up...no real adv. either way)

I understand it is in the rules and I cannot do anything about this. It is simply my personal belief. Beat the players TOM gives you or miss cuts.

Keith
 
InnoceNt said:
If I'm going to bubble in at 6/3, but miss because someone who should've lost got in due to an intentional scoop, how in the hell is nothing wrong with that? There's no way to fix it, but it isn't right.
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If you want to make sure you get in then go undefeated. It's your own fault that you lost be it that you got out played or made a mistake in deck construction prior to the event. (IE didn't play enough basics and got donked T1.
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losjackal said:
From what I've seen, friends generally do not like it when they are paired up with each other in Swiss rounds.
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Okay, I guess I had that coming. I meant getting lucky enough to get paired against somebody who would scoop to you. Generally these people are your friends, but I should have been more specific.

louist200 said:
If you want to make sure you get in then go undefeated. It's your own fault that you lost be it that you got out played or made a mistake in deck construction prior to the event. (IE didn't play enough basics and got donked T1.
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I played a deck with 15 basic Pokemon last weekend and got donked by Zekrom twice before I even got to draw a card, despite building my deck specifically to beat ZPST. I could play a deck with 50 basic Pokemon and still get donked. I won every game I got to draw a card but still bubbled cut. Some factors are quite simply out of a player's control. Not every game inevitably favors the better player. It simply doesn't happen.

You should go to a Pokemon tournament to play Pokemon, not to make top cut whatever way you can.
 
So this discussion is pretty great, but I really don't appreciate the idea being thrown around by a few posters that myself or anyone else mentioned in my article is cheating. I've never cheated in a single game of Pokemon and I'm certainly not going to start now.

As I said in the comments of the article, I'm sorry that I want to see my friends succeed and they want to see me succeed more than others. =\
 
Also, I know this is against Pokegym rules, but it'd be great if the OP could be edited to include a link to my article, so that people can read what happened before commenting.
 
Missing cut doesn't just come down to who scooped someone in, but also which of your opponents sucked (or didn't suck) and who copped out and dropped. Tell your opponents to quit sucking or copping out and maybe you just might make cut.



Or become friends with Kenny. That's always a sure fire way as well. ;)
 
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I love how we're trying to turn a gamic element a moral issue. I understand it can be frustrating to bubble at a tournament because of IDing or intentional scooping, but that's more of a problem with how a tournament cuts than this. If there's anything immoral here, its that there aren't enough rounds, not large enough top cuts, etc. Don't try to push the issue on something else and pass it off as a moral issue.
 
Yes, it is moral to scoop.

However, it's also moral to win...Very, very moral.
 
This is a topic that everyone shouldn't worry about.

Is it moral? I say yes, but also consider that if it isn't...

Is it enforceable? I'm allowed to misplay, and I could just forget to put down a second Pokémon. I could forget to attack. So, without, "scooping," players could still throw away a game. There isn't a real fix even if this were a problem. Move along, play better.
 
Kenny, I'd like to clarify that I don't think you cheated or anything of the sort. All my mention of you is intended to do is explain where I saw the emergence of it being a bit more commonplace in the open.

To the people telling me I have sour grapes, I was nowhere near top cut there, heck, I'm two states away from Washington. I've top cut on occasion here in Cali, but I don't usually do too hot lately. So, it's not sour grapes, the people getting booted out of top cut and myself are two separate groups with little to no overlap.
 
If it is part of the game it is part of the game.
Donks, Milling, Scooping, etc are all a part of the game. I may hate the first 2, but you either do something about it and petition for it to stop, or get over it. Everyone who complains without action is a "Scrub."

Complain+Action=Good
Complain+Complain=Scrub

It's just as easy to sit down and misplay yourself into a loss as it is to just circle the word loss on a matchslip BTW.
 
I agree that scooping isn't a moral issue.

Yes, people can miss cut because of it . . . but the solution to that problem was in THEIR hands.

You can't/shouldn't count on people to do you a favour and help you scrape into cut.
 
Imhotep said:
No one has a right to tell another who they can and can't look down upon/morally judge.

Morality need not be an issue, morality need not be relevant but morality is the question at hand here. Let's try not to stray too far away from this fact. Is the game meant to be a test of skill, or a popularity contest/test of how many minions you can summon? It's not supposed to be a team game, let's remember this too.

This is just one of many issues involving fixing/matchup control, and whilst it's not the worst (bullying/threats to players to force concessions do occur regularly), it falls under the same radar. I think the people who are just shrugging this off are perhaps not really considering what it actually means in practice.
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No one is summoning any minions. All that's ever happened in my reports is friends helping friends. That's it.

And really, "bullying/threats to force concessions do occur regularly?" firstly, that doesn't even matter and doesn't belong in this thread. Secondly, I would hope that if it's happening regularly you are also reporting it regularly.

Also, what does this actually mean in practice? What are the ramifications of friends helping their friends in a completely legal way?
 
It didn't matter who I played, I was going to scoop if I played up in that final round, regardless if I liked the person or not. I understand Yuta would have gone 4-3 (as we played a game still and I won), but the fact is, I don't think that anyone who goes 4-3 should make it in at Worlds when there is 7 rounds. It was my choice and I'd do it again to anyone who was 4-2 at that point. However, saying that, Worlds now gives you CP, so maybe now I wouldn't have done that. However back then there was no drawback to me for scooping and I felt like I did something good and decent, and you know what, that's all I care about.

Drew
 
@Imhotep: I think for the basis of this argument, we have to remove the idea that anyone is being compensated. That is not what anyone is talking about here, as that is clearly illegal.

I also think you're blowing this out of proportion. People aren't just scooping to their bros all over. Like obviously everyone wants to win, and concessions only happen in fringe games where the person conceding has no stock/interest in the game/tournament. I definitely think the idea of "turf gangs" is a little ridiculous. There is literally no way for a "turf gang" to keep people down, if the out of towners are actually winning matches. If they're not winning matches, then why does it matter?

Also, the idea isn't "I can't get caught" it's that there is no ramification to being caught, because it's not against the rules. That's like saying you can't get caught eating cereal. Totally ridiculous.

Anyway, done commenting on this for now. I didn't do anything wrong, neither did any of my friends, and I'm really not liking being called a cheater/scum on here and 6P (although to be fair you guys are being way more rational than 6P).
 
I scoop to save time. Advantageous to me.
I scoop to avoid a bad matchup. Advantageous to me.
I scoop to allow a friend to topcut. Gain friend points, lose nothing. Advantageous to me.

You are in a tournament to win. You don't go to a tournament to worry about other people. Other people didn't make the cut due to resistance? Tough luck, life sucks, good luck next time, and work harder.

I'm sorry, I don't see the moral issue here. If I'm not making this clear, I'll say it again: You don't go to a tournament to worry about other people.

Nothing wrong with it, morally or otherwise. All's fair in love and war.
 
Perhaps you need to take your own advice. If you scoop to allow a friend to top cut YOU have worried about someone else gaining points and top cutting..
 
Rules are rules- they have purpose. It defines a line of what can/cant be done or what is acceptable or unacceptable.
Morals have no rules because morals are influenced by how a person percieves a desciosion to be made based on limits of the situation.

If your given a goal and it is to to win, your given the tools to do the work, your given a guidline to achieve limits to draw a conclusion to obtain the goal- where exactly is the point that morals should come into play when morals were never in the original design?

If people want morals in things, they should have those morals for themselves and not judge others- morals are a double standered issue in the first place. Morals are a set of self impossed guidlines of what you as an individual set limits on as too how you want to be treated in return.

If your morals convince you that something is not right to do for reason of reprocussion- you CHOOSE NOT TO DO IT-

If you feel guilty after doing something, maybe then you overstepped your own personal level of moral standerds- why should anyone else feel bad about that? They did not overstep the personal bounds you placed before yourself.

Just because you don't like something, it does not mean others should dislike it also. And using morals to convince others is a form of judging- and that fine line is where it becomes a matter of personal preferance.

Your given two options: win or lose
If thier is a tie- there is no result.
When you opt to lose on purpose, your still taking one of the two original options: win or lose.

Two People agree to do something- and it is an agreement to result in one of the two original options: playing by the rules.

As long as the requirments are met- it should not matter how the result was obtained as long as those results are found by way of following the rules outlined.
 
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