Issues Facing the TCG

[bullados]

v_g, I just post based on what I've seen and how the parents in my area react. I'm in Champaign-Urbana, IL. The closest large metro area to us is Indianapolis, and their OP isn't exactly the strongest in the world. My parents aren't players, and generally do not want to be. They balk at traveling even to Indy. They generally have to think hard about travel to Chicago or St. Louis for States and Regionals, too far for them, too much of a necessity for overnight stay. Want to tell them that they have to take a hotel for their visit to a big event? Indy for Nationals was somewhat different, as it's the biggest tournament in the world by attendance less than 2 hours from their doorstep; they generally won't miss that. But 2 days for Regionals, which is 3 hours away, they don't particularly like.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian. I'm trying to be realistic based on my experiences with the parents that I've come in contact with, and with conversations that I've had with others in this game about their experiences with large events.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

it's fine to be realistic ... but without positive effort realistic quickly becomes curmudgeonly.

What gets me is that nearly all the staff, professors and whatnot tend to be very negative towards suggestions of change here. Certainly every suggestion isn't going to be realistic or pratical ... but some good stuff seems to get shot down with the bad. All IMHO. YMMV.

 

[NoPoke]

The usual risk with a big format is unforseen combos. However when the combos that give rise to the donk are in the same set then the only conclusion that makes any sense is that the donks are intended to be part of the environment.

Any card that does 60 or more for a single energy card is going to be able to donk the opponent. X2 weakness just increases the candidates that can be donked by the many 60+ for 1 pokemon.

The problem is not donks per se but the impact they have on the tournament structure we use. No one would care about the donks if the tournament structure was designed to minimise their impact. Often when there are complaints someone trots out the fix of "win more games" but that misses the problem by focussing on the wrong aspect of our tournament structure. With our tournament structure the correct advice would be to "lose fewer matches" but with donk losses deciding every round that is just not possible.

 

[Kayle]

The problem is not donks per se but the impact they have on the tournament structure we use. No one would care about the donks if the tournament structure was designed to minimise their impact.

Just would like to emphasize this statement.

I love the skill and forethought required in building and playing donk decks. They are NOT easy to play or create. They are, inherently, one of my favorite decks - and in some sense they are balanced because of the rarity of its success condition: go second + no trainer lock/whatever.

Buuut, they create NPEs (love that expression!) when played in tournaments. That's the problem.

I got donked by Toxitank at my first states (which is, now that I'm further into the game, just a kick in the pants) in my first round, and played Kingdra in the second. You can imagine I was pretty miserable the whole tournament.

 

[NoPoke]

Its only a negative play experience because it more than likely just ended your chances at the cut.

Which is why a lot of Europe used to use 45 minute best of three in the swiss. Getting donked wasn't good but didn't end your day there and then: you still had the remainder of the round to undo the damage, or at least to try to undo the damage. However the recent rule change to game two of match play has eliminated 45 minute best-of-three as a viable round option.

 

[xcfrisco]

We had a discussion on Negative Play Experiences a long time ago on pokegym and imo not much has changed between last year and this year.


People who play Unown Q (*insert 30 hp pokemon here) in their deck and a low basic count should not complain about getting Negative Play Experienced.

People who play low hp basic decks that are weak to either electric, colorless, or dark should not complain about getting Negative Play Experienced.

You're pretty mush just asking for it in all the above scenarios. Plus I saw some 70 hp non-SP basics in the new black and white set thats coming out in Japan so there's probably hope for the metagame in the future.


Lol Negative Play Experiences happen cause card makers in Japan WANT THEM TO. They make games go by faster, shorten tournament durations, save countless $$$ in tournament staff and venue fees, allow little kids to beat "top players," etc



^^^^Somewhat joke post, but seriously all of my lists either have 4 Spiritombs and/or 4 Call energy and I think out of 50 tourney matches I've only been Negative Play Experienced once in my life due to lone Karp start (No call or spiritomb in that list) and I went first

Am I just really lucky ???:colorless::lightning::dark:

Everything else I pretty much agree with what bullados has said

 

[NoPoke]

Lol donks happen cause card makers in Japan WANT THEM TO. AGREED

They make games go by faster, yes, but not in a nice way.

shorten tournament durations, No what they do is have lots of players standing waiting for the next round. in the USA

save countless $$$ in tournament staff and venue fees, etc Err No see previous answer



^^^^Somewhat joke post, but seriously all of my lists either have 4 Spiritombs and/or 4 Call energy and I think out of 50 tourney matches I've only been donked once in my life due to lone Karp start (No call or spiritomb in that list)

Am I just really lucky ???:colorless::lightning::dark: Probably, it is guaranteed that someone out there will have been very lucky.

Everything else i pretty much agree with what Austino has said

responses in green

 

[Physics Squirrel]

To respond to the original post, I think someone on this thread mentioned this, but I have always thought that the player going first should be allowed to play a Supporter. It allows them to get basics but isn't too powerful.


In trying to think of ways this could go wrong, it occurred to me that this would enable situations like a Sableye start, where they could Collector for Unown DARK, Crobat, Crobat and get a 70HP KO going first, which wouldn't be good. If not for cards like Sableye and Beedrill G, I think this would be the best solution.

As it stands, if they really wanted to make things fair, we could do something like, you may play a Supporter on the first turn, but if you do, you may not attack that turn.

 

[Raen]

To respond to the original post, I think someone on this thread mentioned this, but I have always thought that the player going first should be allowed to play a Supporter. It allows them to get basics but isn't too powerful.


In trying to think of ways this could go wrong, it occurred to me that this would enable situations like a Sableye start, where they could Collector for Unown DARK, Crobat, Crobat and get a 70HP KO going first, which wouldn't be good. If not for cards like Sableye and Beedrill G, I think this would be the best solution.

As it stands, if they really wanted to make things fair, we could do something like, you may play a Supporter on the first turn, but if you do, you may not attack that turn.

I love the idea of a Supporter being able to be played Turn 1, but as you said Sableye would be too powerful. Plus, once B&W rules come over here, it would become irrelevant.

 

[ChaosJim]

I feel like there have to be other children's hobbies that dominate more than 5 full weekends a year (2 states, regionals, nats, worlds). I wouldn't really know, since gaming and comic book reading have been my only longstanding hobbies.

My bad on the format bit. I literally got up and had lunch while catching up in the 7 pages of the thread.

In talking to a handful of players, the reason against multiple formats is effort/time investment. Some people speculate "things might get crazy!" Top players not being super-psyched says to me this might actually REDUCE a barrier to entry for new players: yeah, cards might be a little harder to find, but getting serious as the extended leg of the season starts means that you're in the same position to understand the meta as nearly anyone else.

I'll be testing an extended format at my league (starting January), anyone interested in helping me should reach out to me at [email protected], please let me know its about extended league in case I don't recognize your name/email.

At present, cards for an extended format wouldn't be super pricey. Players who didn't want to play the 'extended' events during the year since its too much effort could pawn off cards to players who did want to play those events. The result is that while PUI sells the same number of cards, it costs less for players to play. Kenny made a point somewhere earlier that an extended format would need to be announced at Worlds with the new modified format, it was kind of obvious to me, but might warp some people's brains a little.

On the Uxie NPE deck: can it reliably donk a double Spiritomb start if there is a third pokemon involved? If so, I have a new deck for cities, if not I just helped a ton of people out.

 

[SuperWooper]

As it stands, if they really wanted to make things fair, we could do something like, you may play a Supporter on the first turn, but if you do, you may not attack that turn.

This sounds excellent. I wish people would rally behind ideas like these so that POP would be forced to take notice.

 

[SD PokeMom]

This sounds excellent. I wish people would rally behind ideas like these so that POP would be forced to take notice.

except: TPCi/POP/P!P doesn't decide gameplay rules, japan does...

'mom

 

[Physics Squirrel]

except: TPCi/POP/P!P doesn't decide gameplay rules, japan does...

'mom

I could be wrong but my understanding was that this was false. I thought TCPi chose to make it a priority to have consistent rules with Japan, as opposed to being obligated to. We already fail horribly at syncing up on a number of things like deck building format, legal sets, and age groupings.

Unless Japan has an interest in enforcing gameplay procedure rules in the US that are out of context and inappropriate for our format, even though everything else about their rules is different, I don't understand why this is a problem.

 

[Cyrus]

Technically right, SDPokemom: how the game "should" be played is dictated by Japan. However, your false assumption is that we'll be forever obliged to do what they say.

While I agree that it is ideal to play the game the way the creators intended it to be played, anything can happen in the future that could result in a shift from always conforming to Japan, to conforming to Japan only at Worlds (e.g., Yu-Gi-Oh).

 

[Scipio]

On the Uxie NPE deck: can it reliably donk a double Spiritomb start if there is a third pokemon involved? If so, I have a new deck for cities, if not I just helped a ton of people out.

Reliable? Ehm...I'd say about 30-40% chance. Should the Uxie player start with Uxie and Cyclone Energy, then yes. They would Cyclone the Tomb away, then bomb it with Crobats and Blowers, seeker the other, and KO.
This doesn't apply vs 2 Tombs.

 

[EvanBaker]

I'll agree that donks generally aren't good for the game, but all donks are not created equal. Some examples from this weekend's City Championships, where I placed 2nd but had 2 donks in my favor, 1 against in Swiss play. I'm playing LuxChomp, a deck that isn't designed to donk but can do so when given the chance:

1. My opponent starts Sableye, I start Ambipom. He has a second basic in his hand. He wants to use that basic for Pokemon Communication on his next turn, so he keeps it in his hand and Impersonates for a Collector, despite my active Ambi. I take my turn, collector for 2 Crobats, attach DCE and Snap Attack for the game. He shows me the second basic in his hand and laments his bad luck.

My Take: In my mind, this is totally his fault. He saw the Ambi and gambled.

2. My opponent starts lone Unown Q, I start Luxray, attach DCE, and Bite for the game. He's a friend, but jokes often that day that I got an "undeserved win." After awhile, I get annoyed with it and retort, "that's what you get for playing a basic with 30 HP."

My Take: I'm torn here. Unown Q is essential in VileGar (which he plays), and he has a pretty high basic count, so it's pretty unlucky for him. On the other hand, I've purposely omitted Unown Q, admittedly a very helpful card, for this exact reason. Is what I said correct? Is that "what you get for playing a basic with 30 HP?"

3. I play against my brother's HoPe deck, which is not a donk deck. I start lone Shuppet (I play 16 basics), go first with a pretty sweet hand, attach and pass. He starts Honchkrow G, Flash Bite, Target Attack, game over.

My Take: I play Shuppet/Banette as a tech against VileGar, Machamp, and Mewtwo. The 50 HP Shuppet is a risk I'm willing to take with how amazingly the tech has performed, and with how rarely I start with a lone basic due to my high basic count and my use of Call Energy. I'm sure I would have been way more steamed if it hadn't been my brother that donked me, but I'm willing to say this one was a little bit of both: rotten luck, and my fault for including Shuppet in my build. Let's face it, all Pokemon have an HP, whether low, high, or average, and it should be one of the things we as players think about when including a card in our decks.

 

[Scipio]

Evan, the thing with those donks is that they are matchup/own choice relied. The donks are not made by intentional donk decks.
The REAL donk issues lay with decks designed to donk regardless of the basic they face.

Evan, I'd like to hear your take on this one:

I play Abomasnow and start with Snover SF, who has the Hide attack to avoid damage. I have 13 basics in my deck as well as 4 call energy. The rest of my hand consist of Roseannes, Claydol, Bebe, 2 Energy, Abomasnow and Manectric. I start, attach to Snover and flip for Hide. Tails. My opponent plays Machop-Candy-Machamp, drops Uxie and gets Roseanne for game.

Your take?

 

[xcfrisco]

I remember saying this last year and it still holds true:

Get better at calling the coin/dice wrong! I think you'll get Negative Play Experienced a lot less if you increase your chances of going second :tongue:. Realistically, the only chance you have of getting NPE'd (if going second) is if you start with the following scenarios:

-Lone basic with less that 60 hp (due to Special Dark Sableye starts)
-Lone basic with 60 hp that's double weak to Electric or Colorless (Garchomp C or Luxray GL plus DCE is a VERY common start, probably the most common)
-Lone basic with 60 hp or less (due to Snap Attack Ambipom)

Conclusion: Play decks with consistent 70 or more HP basics.

Solution to all this? Play Healix! Those basic have huge HP! :colorless::metal:

 

[Ness]

I too would absolutely love to see two day States & Regionals. Look how much Nationals improved when extending it into a three day tournament. I hope it never goes back! I also hear a lot of comparing Pokemon to Magic. Every move Pokemon has taken in the footsteps of Magic has been successful: turn extensions after time, Best 2/3 play, legitimate World Championships, World Championship decks, creating different formats. None of these things existed when Pokemon first debuted and all of them existed in Magic first. Why stop there? Magic also has a three-day Worlds with different formats, it rewards whatever country performs the best at Worlds, it has a Hall of Fame for the best players. Some of these ideas could be implemented in Pokemon, too, at least in some form. Magic has some really cool stuff and it's had more years than Pokemon had to come up with these ideas. We should use this to our advantage.

Complaining about the costs of a venue hall for an extra day is a joke. Yeah, stuff costs money. C'est la vie. The price of these venues is dirt compared to what people spend in cards. Common sense should tell anyone that it keeps the game alive & fun, which ends up in a more profitable game in the end anyway. The bottom line is Two Day events aren't even a luxury at events like Regionals, they are now a necessity to have a fair & fun tournament. We had a whole thread about this and a clear majority of players wanted two-day Regionals. Hopefully enough PTOs are reading this and will actually listen to the players and take the initiative. This is where 8 pages of discussion & brainstorming, with hundreds of opinions, and thousands of people reading can turn into something productive. We see what the players want, and what the tournaments need. Now, it's up to the PTOs to actually do something.

 

[Scipio]

I remember saying this last year and it still holds true:

Get better at calling the coin/dice wrong! I think you'll get Negative Play Experienced a lot less if you increase your chances of going second :tongue:. Realistically, the only chance you have of getting NPE'd (if going second) is if you start with the following scenarios:

-Lone basic with less that 60 hp (due to Special Dark Sableye starts)
-Lone basic with 60 hp that's double weak to Electric or Colorless (Garchomp C or Luxray GL plus DCE is a VERY common start, probably the most common)
-Lone basic with 60 hp or less (due to Snap Attack Ambipom)

Conclusion: Play decks with consistent 70 or more HP basics.

Solution to all this? Play Healix! Those basic have huge HP! :colorless::metal:

And then you get donked by Uxie who Crobats your Uxie to death, Seekers your Onix and then KO's your Onix. And voila, you still lost. (And yes, with 4 Crobats, 4 Turns, 4 Junk Arms and 4 SSU, that aint really hard to pull off)

Also, yeah, you may have a better chance. But even 90 HP basics are easily donked by certain stuff (Kingdra Prime + Belt comes to mind) so there's a lot that just doesn't work out.

As I said earlier, donks that are based on weakness - yeah, thats a Meta choice you made and thus your own fault. Same with Qnown, thats a deck choice thing.

@ Jason: Do you think that the amount of cards purchased as a result of 2-day-states/regionals will weigh up against the extra costs of the venues? Just playing devil's advocate here, mind you, but I recon a solid investment is needed. Not to mention the extra cost that is put on the players by having to arrange accomodation and all that.

Just saying it has some drawbacks, I'd favor 2-days-regs as well but I'm not American so take my opinion for what its worth.