LCQ Issues

[DukeFireBird]

After 5+ years of this, we keep hearing the same thing. invites that do not get accepted DO NOT GO INTO THE GRINDER.

Just because Japan had no qualifier, does not mean that those slots go into the grinder. Japan probably did something to assure their presence in the championships.

Now for those of you who still dont get the structure, it will go like this

Assuming 513-1024 entrants in division
R1 plays down to 512
R2 plays down to 256
R3 plays down to 128
R4 plays down to 64
R5 plays down to 32
R6 plays down to 16
and R7 plays down to the magic 8

Assume 7 rounds for the LCQ for masters, regardless of flighting, because if they flight us, then you play down to the top 4 in each pod, making the 8 invites.

The only way extras will get in worlds via LCQ, will be if P!P decides to open up to the T16, or even the T32 (however unlikely)

Assume 7 rounds, and if for some reason we get 1025+, then its 8 rounds.

Also, I have never seen a cap at the TCG LCQ ever. We came CLOSE 1 year with 252 players, however, that does not mean there wont be one this year.

 

[Box of Fail]

You honestly think P!P hasn't thought about this when they made their decision? I think you really underestimate them and just have some very sour grapes over a decision they made that did not please you. I'm sure they'll know how to deal with this issue from the beginning.

lol, so we shouldn't have sour grapes when they make decisions that don't please us? They're SUPPOSED to cater to us, the contestants...

 

[DukeFireBird]

lol, so we shouldn't have sour grapes when they make decisions that don't please us? They're SUPPOSED to cater to us, the contestants...

WRONG. They are giving you (generic you) an opportunity to make worlds, even though you did not qualify via rating, or Nationals. Worlds is about the best of the best, not the LCQ. The argument rises each year, and Ill start it this year. If there's going to be this much bickering, why have the LCQ?

If you want to avoid this, qualify normally via Nats/ranking.

I am grinding this year, as I usually do every year, and I only had sour grapes 1 time, and that was in 2005. Every time afterwards, I accepted what happened, and had a blast at the side events!

 

[Cyrus]

I don't know if there's a cap or not, but regardless, I think that a pre-registration process would be very useful, and would save both staff and players a ton of time on the actual day of grinders.

If there's one thing that's certain, it's that the LCQ needs to start _on time_.

 

[nnaann]

lol, so we shouldn't have sour grapes when they make decisions that don't please us? They're SUPPOSED to cater to us, the contestants...

Worlds isn't for the average Pokemon player, it's a reward for the players who have battled throughout the year to win a Worlds invite and to give them a chance to showcase their ability as well as become a World Champion.

Catering to other players is nice when it's possible, but this new format allows the Judges and Staff running the whole event to be better prepared for the World Championships. If the LCQ is supposed to be more important than the actual World Championships, then something is very wrong.

 

[Box of Fail]

WRONG. They are giving you (generic you) an opportunity to make worlds, even though you did not qualify via rating, or Nationals. Worlds is about the best of the best, not the LCQ. The argument rises each year, and Ill start it this year. If there's going to be this much bickering, why have the LCQ?

If you want to avoid this, qualify normally via Nats/ranking.

I am grinding this year, as I usually do every year, and I only had sour grapes 1 time, and that was in 2005. Every time afterwards, I accepted what happened, and had a blast at the side events!

The grinder isn't some favor that OP decides to do out of the goodness of their heart.

It's something that will be EXPECTED and taken for granted by Pokémon players at worlds and any other invitation-only event Pokémon does in the future.

If OP axed the grinder, how do you think people would react? 'Oh, well it was just a nice thing to do; it isn't like they owed us a shot at worlds when we already blew that'

OP OWES us the grinder. We are ENTITLED to it as long as there are invitation-only events. Any attempt to axe (or in this case, sabotage) it will be met with sharp resistance from the player base. The shot at grinding in, however small, gives many people a reason to come. You may be satisfied playing side events, but do you think that many people will shell out the cash to come to San Diego to do that?

When people who miss the invite come regardless for a shot at the grinder, it improves the Worlds experience for everyone, including those with invites. Plus, every year there are very big names who miss the invite, but whom everyone would love to see play worlds.

Please don't try to tell me that those who missed their invite aren't good enough to play in worlds. There are tons of reasons people miss the invite, but surviving the grinder shows you deserve to play in worlds just as much as, if not more than, those who worked over the season to get an invite. Those who do well at the grinder tend to do well the next day. Plus there are tons of Japanese people who will have to grind in this year, and it really will be their only chance.

The change to single elimination format is essentially an attempt to get the grinder over with as quickly as possible. It's essentially saying, "we care more about our judges' being well-rested for the main event than we do about the grinder." I'm sorry but a judge who can't perform under 5-6 hours of sleep doesn't deserve to be judging worlds in the first place, if indeed it is as prestigious as you make it sound.

Worlds isn't for the average Pokemon player, it's a reward for the players who have battled throughout the year to win a Worlds invite and to give them a chance to showcase their ability as well as become a World Champion.

Catering to other players is nice when it's possible, but this new format allows the Judges and Staff running the whole event to be better prepared for the World Championships. If the LCQ is supposed to be more important than the actual World Championships, then something is very wrong.

I don't think that the grinder is more important than worlds. I think that at both events, only top-level judges who can perform at their best should be on the job. Any given match at the grinder is just as important as one in Swiss at worlds. Even if we miss cut at worlds, at least we got to play. Every match in the grinder is crucial to the securing of one's worlds invite, so I don't think OP should use mediocre judges for either event.

 

[Scorpidad]

The grinder isn't some favor that OP decides to do out of the goodness of their heart.

It's something that will be EXPECTED and taken for granted by Pokémon players at worlds and any other invitation-only event Pokémon does in the future.

If OP axed the grinder, how do you think people would react? 'Oh, well it was just a nice thing to do; it isn't like they owed us a shot at worlds when we already blew that'

OP OWES us the grinder. We are ENTITLED to it as long as there are invitation-only events. Any attempt to axe (or in this case, sabotage) it will be met with sharp resistance from the player base. The shot at grinding in, however small, gives many people a reason to come. You may be satisfied playing side events, but do you think that many people will shell out the cash to come to San Diego to do that?

When people who miss the invite come regardless for a shot at the grinder, it improves the Worlds experience for everyone, including those with invites. Plus, every year there are very big names who miss the invite, but whom everyone would love to see play worlds.

Please don't try to tell me that those who missed their invite aren't good enough to play in worlds. There are tons of reasons people miss the invite, but surviving the grinder shows you deserve to play in worlds just as much as, if not more than, those who worked over the season to get an invite. Those who do well at the grinder tend to do well the next day. Plus there are tons of Japanese people who will have to grind in this year, and it really will be their only chance.

The change to single elimination format is essentially an attempt to get the grinder over with as quickly as possible. It's essentially saying, "we care more about our judges' being well-rested for the main event than we do about the grinder." I'm sorry but a judge who can't perform under 5-6 hours of sleep doesn't deserve to be judging worlds in the first place, if indeed it is as prestigious as you make it sound.





I don't think that the grinder is more important than worlds. I think that at both events, only top-level judges who can perform at their best should be on the job. Any given match at the grinder is just as important as one in Swiss at worlds. Even if we miss cut at worlds, at least we got to play. Every match in the grinder is crucial to the securing of one's worlds invite, so I don't think OP should use mediocre judges for either event.

You're ENTITLED to a grinder? You must be a senior!

 

[JandPDS]

Worlds isn't for the average Pokemon player, it's a reward for the players who have battled throughout the year to win a Worlds invite and to give them a chance to showcase their ability as well as become a World Champion.

Catering to other players is nice when it's possible, but this new format allows the Judges and Staff running the whole event to be better prepared for the World Championships. If the LCQ is supposed to be more important than the actual World Championships, then something is very wrong.

You are missing one crucial thing. The best players are not always in the Worlds tournament before the LCQ starts. Last year the Juniors Champion went undefeated in both the LCQ and Worlds, do you think she did not belong participating in worlds because she was not good enough to have already have qualified for it without playing in the LCQ?

The year before that the Juniors World champion and the Worlds 2nd place both qualified for worlds by playing in the LCQ as did the Seniors Champion, so 1/2 of the top 6 finishers at Worlds that year were not in Worlds before the LCQ began.

LCQ players in Masters have taken many T4 finishes and if I am not mistaken I believe that one Champion started out as a LCQ participant (I think it was in Anaheim)

I am pretty sure that we have not had a year were at least one of the Worlds T4 was not from the LCQ, and from what I have seen LCQ participants have top cutted at a equal to or higher percentage rate then the at large participants.

This year will be different because the format change had made it so luck will win out over skill and the best players may not make it thorough the LCQ to worlds

The LCQ is just as important as Worlds because a fair one was the only way to make sure that the best players are in the Worlds tournament this year maybe that will not necessarily be the case

The LCQ is just as important as Worlds because a fair one was the only way to make sure that the best players are in the Worlds tournament this year maybe that will not neccesarily be the case

 

[PokePop]

I had to give BoP's post a "thanks" because it gave me a good laugh after a rough day at work.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

After 5+ years of this, we keep hearing the same thing. invites that do not get accepted DO NOT GO INTO THE GRINDER.

Um, yes they do. They might not ALL going into the Grinder, but some do. They have never said they DON'T go into the Grinder, and have continually said that they DO. I'm not sure where you got that fact from, but that's just not a true statement.

Drew

 

[PokePop]

You are missing one crucial thing. The best players are not allways in the Worlds tournament before the LCQ starts. Last year the Juniors Champion went undefeated in both the LCQ and Worlds, do you think she did not belong particpating in worlds because she was not good enough to have already have qualified for it without playing in the LCQ?

The year before that the Juniors World champion and the Worlds 2nd place both qualified for worlds by playing in the LCQ as did the Seniors Champion, so 1/2 of the top 6 finishers at Worlds that year were not in Worlds before the LCQ began.

LCQ players in Masters have taken many T4 finishes and if I am not mistaken I believe that one Champion started out as a LCQ patricpant (I think it was in Anehiem)

But that's not your issue, is it?

No, your issue is that players who have lost a couple of games in the grinder won't get to keep playing for fun, isn't it?
The grinder is still there and will still work for that undefeated player to make it though.

One could also argue that the best player in the world isn't at Worlds, even with the grinder. They are a junior that only plays their 13 year old brother at home in a trailer in Mobile Alabama. No one has ever heard of them, but they're the best player in the world and won't be in San Diego to play in the grinder, so the whole World Championship is a fraud.

But no, that's a straw argument, too.
The truth is that the true World Champion is the player that worked their way through the system that was set before them in any given world and wound up as the winning player at the end of the whole thing. Whether that system includes an LCQ or not doesn't matter.
Sure, the LCQ is a great thing and I'm glad that Pokemon offers it to the players. It was certainly needed in the first few years to flesh out the attendance.
However, it is not needed for the event anymore. Enough players make it, in all age groups, that there would be enough players with earned invites already attending that all Pokemon would need to do is to drop the invites down to the next 8 (or so) ranked players in the region and they'd have a pretty full event.

So, at this point, the LCQ exists solely as a gift to the player base that is either local or willing to travel. Pokemon does not need a huge attendance at Worlds.
That's what Nationals are for. One might argue that the LCQ is unfair to non-local player bases as it is easier for US players to just show up than it is for foreign players to do.
So, yes, the LCQ is a gift from Pokemon and if they feel that it works better for them to run it as single elimination to make it a "clean" event that is easy for players to know when they are done and to reduce the staff that is needed so that the staff is fresher for what is really the main purpose that Pokemon paid for them to be there, well, then so be it.

 

[butlerforhire]

Sense of entitlement + perpetual sour grapes = one good way to alienate P!P.

 

[JandPDS]

But that's not your issue, is it?

No, your issue is that players who have lost a couple of games in the grinder won't get to keep playing for fun, isn't it?
The grinder is still there and will still work for that undefeated player to make it though.

One could also argue that the best player in the world isn't at Worlds, even with the grinder. They are a junior that only plays their 13 year old brother at home in a trailer in Mobile Alabama. No one has ever heard of them, but they're the best player in the world and won't be in San Diego to play in the grinder, so the whole World Championship is a fraud.

But no, that's a straw argument, too.
The truth is that the true World Champion is the player that worked their way through the system that was set before them in any given world and wound up as the winning player at the end of the whole thing. Whether that system includes an LCQ or not doesn't matter.
Sure, the LCQ is a great thing and I'm glad that Pokemon offers it to the players. It was certainly needed in the first few years to flesh out the attendance.
However, it is not needed for the event anymore. Enough players make it, in all age groups, that there would be enough players with earned invites already attending that all Pokemon would need to do is to drop the invites down to the next 8 (or so) ranked players in the region and they'd have a pretty full event.

So, at this point, the LCQ exists solely as a gift to the player base that is either local or willing to travel. Pokemon does not need a huge attendance at Worlds.
That's what Nationals are for. One might argue that the LCQ is unfair to non-local player bases as it is easier for US players to just show up than it is for foreign players to do.
So, yes, the LCQ is a gift from Pokemon and if they feel that it works better for them to run it as single elimination to make it a "clean" event that is easy for players to know when they are done and to reduce the staff that is needed so that the staff is fresher for what is really the main purpose that Pokemon paid for them to be there, well, then so be it.

No they are not two separate issues they are one in the same. Swiss play is the only fair way to determine who are the most deserving players who will move on to the main event the next day.

Four years ago in Hawaii a Masters player from Japan playing Scizor EX lost in the 2nd round of the LCW to a fellow Washington player. The Washington player went on to loose 3 games and did not make it in. The Japanese player did not loose again until the final round of swiss and finished wit ha 6-2 record, placing 6th when the T7 went on to compete in the World Championships ( I remember this clearly as I ended up with an identical record to him but ended up in 12th place due to the tiebreakers)

The following day at worlds the Japanese player went undefeated until the final round of swiss where he ended up with a 5-1 record and was the #2 seed going into the top cut The final day he finished in 4th place and earned a free trip to compete in Worlds in Orlando the next year.
Did he not belong in the World Championships because he lost 2 games in the LCQ? The way he played in the World Championships proved that he indeed did belong in that field. But a player in his situation this year will not get the same chance he did to make it into the main event.

One early loss should not eliminate a deserving player from the chance to make it into the World Championships. How fair is it for a Zekrom player to have to face a Doniphan deck in Rd 2. Should that loss really cause him to be kicked out of consideration?

I am fairly certain that we will see stories on the gym after Worlds where a player will get donked in Game 1, play a competitive Game 2 where win 6-3 in a long game and then get in Game 3. Should a loss like this end their worlds dream?
The problem with eliminating Swiss play and putting every player in the LCQ in the Top Cut is that Luck will now play a more crucial role in who gets to worlds then ever before. In a normal tournament Swiss play separates the top players from the rest of the field. So players get multiple games to prove they belong in the playoff round. A game 2 loss in regionals does not eliminate a top player from being able to win the Championship. But the LCQ this year is all Top Cut with no chance for the best players to survive an early hiccup and play in enough games to make it to the top.

Another problem with starting with a 400+ player top cut is that given the increased stakes where you must win every round or you will be forced out of the event, is that cheating is bound to increase this year. Although it happens every year added pressure should push more players to cross the line and stack their decks and other such bad play. In Orlando I was donked T1 by a player when we were both 4-1. I was pretty sure that I knew how he did it, but without a judge to witness it there was nothing that I could do at the time. But I did tell the head judge what happened and how he did it and the head judge assigned a judge to stand near this player and watch his remaining games. This player then went on to loose each of his final two matches as I assume he could not duplicate his move on the other players.

Cheating even happens in Top cuts of major championships but a Judge is watching those matches to stop that when it occurs. But in the LCQ this year with 200+ top cut matches going on at once there is no way Judges will be able to catch the cheaters in the early rounds.

A last unfairness is that someone is going to qualify for worlds this year by going 4 or 5 and 0 and then get a bye for the last round of swiss when the number left will be 15 or under. If you have 21 undefeated players after 5 rounds and 20 of them have to play and win another round to get into worlds, how fair is it for the 10 losers of the final round of swiss that they are out, wile one player qualified without having to play in the final round of the Tournament?

No this year we will not necessarily see the very best of the field in the LCQ moving on and that is a shame.

As for the other issue, as normal swiss play is the best and most fair way to determine who will qualify for worlds, then there is no reason to kick out players who loose in the early rounds, you might as well let those who want keep competing and play for the sheer love of the game, with other players who are competing for that very same reason. A lot of players drop when they loose early anyways so the attendance is always way down the final rounds of swiss. But there is no good reason at all to force someone to stop competing and enjoying the game of Pokémon just because they no longer have the possibility of qualifying for Worlds.

 

[DJGigabyte]

The year before that the Juniors World champion and the Worlds 2nd place both qualified for worlds by playing in the LCQ as did the Seniors Champion, so 1/2 of the top 6 finishers at Worlds that year were not in Worlds before the LCQ began.

The year you are referring too here is 2009 yes?
Meaning the senior champ was Takuto yes?

Because I think I've told you in around 4 different threads now, Takuto did NOT grind in 2009, he had an invite from coming second in 2008.

I'm not sure about the Juniors either, because people made a pretty big deal last year about someone grinding in and winning, so I doubt it's happened before. If that's correct, the fraction drops down to 1/6.

 

[JandPDS]

The year you are referring too here is 2009 yes?
Meaning the senior champ was Takuto yes?

Because I think I've told you in around 4 different threads now, Takuto did NOT grind in 2009, he had an invite from coming second in 2008.

I'm not sure about the Juniors either, because people made a pretty big deal last year about someone grinding in and winning, so I doubt it's happened before. If that's correct, the fraction drops down to 1/6.

The two Japanese players that won with SP toolbox both had LCQ by their names of the Final Swiss standings and by their names on the top cut brackets. Maybe that was a mistake in the senior players case, but they did show them as having grinded into the main event. I always check and see how the LCQ players do in the final event ever since they unsuccessfully tried to eliminate the LCQ in 2007. And I know that both 1st and 2nd place Junior players had LCQ by thier names because I remember telling my wife that a Grinder player was going to win the Juniors title no matter the outcome of the Junior Championship

I also know the junior player Champion grinded in for tashat year as I met his father the day of the LCQ and he told me how happy his son was to make it to Worlds the following day. And last year not only did I meet the father of the Japanese girl who went Undefeated the entire weekend, but we played each other in the final round of Swiss on the LCQ. He was so excited for his daughter making it though that I think we spent as much time taking about her making worlds as we did playing our game.

 

[PokePop]

To alleviate the issue of being out after losing one game, the LCQ will be match play, meaning that the player most likely lost two games.

There is no way, Swiss rounds or not, that a player with an X-2 record will qualify this year.
They will be out of contention either way.
Hawaii is always a special case for the LCQ because there just aren't as many players traveling there just to try to grind in.

 

[nnaann]

I don't think that the grinder is more important than worlds. I think that at both events, only top-level judges who can perform at their best should be on the job. Any given match at the grinder is just as important as one in Swiss at worlds. Even if we miss cut at worlds, at least we got to play. Every match in the grinder is crucial to the securing of one's worlds invite, so I don't think OP should use mediocre judges for either event.

I'm not sure if you realise, but considering the prizes on offer, the Grinder is probably the event that receives the best judging each year. Apparently there's going to be a cap of 512 Masters, and with the Top 8 receiving invites, that's roughly one invite per 70 people that enter. My Nationals (and aside from the US, all prove this point) had an attendance of 100 players in the Masters, with invites given out to the Top 4. I could argue that my Nationals should have had Judges flown in from around the World like the Grinder did, since there was one invite per 25 contestants. On top of that, thousands of dollars in prize support was given away by POP, which further increases the need for better judging.

Take a Regional or State Championship, where each game has a 32 point difference on someone's rating. I would argue that again, each game has a bigger impact on getting a Worlds invite then the 1/70 odds that the Grinder offers. Again, that's not even taking into account the other prize support that POP offers as well.

Truth is, a bad call could knock someone out of the tournament, and they probably wouldn't have won an invite anyway. Saying that each given game at the Grinder is the same as a Swiss game in Worlds just doesn't make sense. Why should a game giving someone such low odds of an invite be as important as a game in which someone actually has an invite?

Also, the comment about Judges that shouldn't be allowed to Judge Worlds if they can't cope with a lack of sleep is really ignorant, and makes you sound like a dictator. It's scientifically proven that the brain cannot function to it's highest level without a suitable amount of sleep, which is why POP want their Judges at their best for the actual World Championships.

You are missing one crucial thing. The best players are not allways in the Worlds tournament before the LCQ starts. Last year the Juniors Champion went undefeated in both the LCQ and Worlds, do you think she did not belong particpating in worlds because she was not good enough to have already have qualified for it without playing in the LCQ?

The year before that the Juniors World champion and the Worlds 2nd place both qualified for worlds by playing in the LCQ as did the Seniors Champion, so 1/2 of the top 6 finishers at Worlds that year were not in Worlds before the LCQ began.

LCQ players in Masters have taken many T4 finishes and if I am not mistaken I believe that one Champion started out as a LCQ patricpant (I think it was in Anehiem)

I am pretty sure that we have not had a year were at least one of the Worlds T4 was not from the LCQ, and from what I have seen LCQ particpants have top cutted at a equal to or higher percentage rate rate then then the at large particpants.

This year will be different because the format change had made it so luck will win out over skill and the best players may not make it thorough the LCQ to worlds

The LCQ is just as important as Worlds because a fair one was the only way to make sure that the best players are in the Worlds tournament this year maybe that will not neccesarily be the case

A lot of my points were made to Box of Fail, but the Grinder has really bad odds of offering someone an invite. Sure, the Grinder produces a lot of high placing contestants, but so do other tournaments. Sami Sekkoum usually gets his invite from the UK Nationals, and I believe is the most consistent placing player in the World. Why don't we get Judges flown around the World for our Nationals, like the LCQ does?

Another section of invites that have a big bearing on high placings is the invites given out to the Top 40 in North America. A 32 point difference from a bad call at a State or Regional Championship can have a bigger influence on an invite then the Grinder does, so why don't State and Regional Championships have Judges flown in from around the World?

For POP, Worlds is a huge expense out of their OP budget and they want to ensure that the Judges are at their best for the Grinder and Worlds, but with a lack of sleep it's only natural that people won't be able to. By reducing the stress of the Grinder, it gives the Judges better time to prepare for the actual event, where every single person has already won an invite. The only other solution would be to fly further Judges into Worlds, in order to have separate staff for each event. The cost of that would run into thousands of dollars, money which could be better spent promoting new leagues, especially considering that the Grinder offers really bad odds anyway.

There's a 1/5 chance that each player in Worlds will Top Cut, what are the odds that out of hundreds of players, one will take 1 invite from 8 as well as go on to Top Cut Worlds? Even if every single player from the LCQ went on to Top Cut Worlds, the odds would be still be much worse then someone already with an invite!

 

[NoPoke]

Assume attendance exceeds seating so we have to flight, with single elimination the numbers half each round so the period that you have to flight players is probably just one round. But what happens with eliminate on second loss?

====single elim====
R1a: 512 flight a
R1b: 512 flight b
-- two rounds to eliminate half the players --
R2: 512 a+ b winners
R3: 256
R4: 128
R5: 64
R6: 32
R7: 16

8 rounds of 60min 2/3 : around 12 hours excluding registration

===== eliminate on second loss using swiss pairs ====

R1a: 512 a
R1b: 512 b
R2a: 512 aw +bw
R2b: 512 al + bl (256 eliminated)
R3a: 256 double winners
R3b: 512 single win single los (256 eliminated)
-- note that it took 6 rounds to eliminate half the players --
R4: 512 (128 zero loss, 384 single loss) ( 192 eliminated)
R5: 320 (64 zero loss, 256 single loss) (128 eliminated)
R6: 192 (32 zero loss, 160 single loss) (80 eliminated)
R7: 112 (16 zero loss, 96 single loss) (48 eliminated)
--10 rounds of 60 minute match play and it is finally possible to let most of the staff get some sleep it is already "tomorrow" by this time--
R8: 64 (8 zero loss, 56 single loss) (28 eliminated)
R9: 36 (4 zero loss, 32 single loss) (16 eliminated)
R10: 20 ( 2 zero loss, 18 single loss) ( 9 eliminated)
R11: 11 players ( 1 undefeated , 9 10-1 )

After 14 'rounds' of 60 minute match play (approx 20 hours) everyone gives up in exhaustion and lets the 11 players go to bed as it is way past midnight 4AM?.

elimination on second loss isn't automatically bad but it would probably mean that there would have to be an attendance cap to just the number of available seats to make the event manageable.

How a bout a hybrid? Single elim till 64 players remain. How does a 64 player eliminate on second loss work....

R5 64 players (64 zero loss) (no one eliminated)
R6 64 players ( 32 zero loss, 32 single loss ) ( 16 eliminated)
R7 48 players ( 16 zero loss, 32 single loss) ( 16 eliminated)
-- this is the point at which single elimination has its 8 undefeated players --
R8: 32 players ( 8 zero loss, 24 single loss) ( 12 eliminated)
R9: 20 players ( 4 zero loss, 16 single loss) ( 8 eliminated)
R10: 12 players ( 2 zero loss, 10 single loss) ( 5 eliminated)
let the seven players play in the main event.

The hybrid costs an extra 3 rounds of 60 minute match play : 4-5 hours extra on top of the 12 hours that the single elimination would have taken.

I wish we had draws, though they do complicate elimination by record they speed up every tournament by making the in between rounds time predictable and shorter. See what I've done I've managed to bring up my dissatisfaction with the elimination of draws

 

[bullados]

The LCQ has basically always been double elimination when it's been in the Continental US.

It is double elimination this year as well.

I do not see the change.

 

[Nemes]

“Double Elimination - How many rounds?”

http://www.gottfriedville.net/mathprob/misc-dblelim.html