LCQ Issues
- Thread starter JandPDS
- Start date
JandPDS
New Member
Yes bus swiss with tiebreakers scores can be cut a round or two short. And plus this has never happened becuase of the poding done. Expect for Anehim you never had a 500+ toourney for a LCQ. If yo uget 900 players in Masters it will not be 10 rounds, but it will be broken up into 2 pods of 450 and 8 rounds each.
Remember there is no Tieberakerscores this year. All 5-0 will be tied for 1st place. This LCQ is on Giant top cut and like any top cut it will keep going on until we get to under 16 particapnts left. You can not cut rounds from it like a swiss event and use tiebreakers to determine the winners as we were able to in the past.
---------- Post added 07/24/2011 at 06:22 PM ----------
Yes but who is getting saved by this... the lower level judges and slip runners? The important people are actually going to have to work harder and longer and be more fatigued by this then by a swiss event.
By the latter rounds in Swiss between 1/2 hand 2/3 of the players who started have dropped out anyways, and the lower tables that are left in play never recieved much in he way of judge attention anyways. I don't see how having a 9 hour event as opposed to an 8 hour event is an imprivement for the main Judges.
Remember this change did not come from the people who run the LCQ. This came from above them.
Prof Clay
New Member
It gets to a point where all you are doing is complaining about it raining outside...not going to change anything.
Plus I can guess with some certainty that this will be the grinder format for future. There will be plenty of people who wish to enter and give it a shot....but there are also going to be many side events going that same day to keep everyone occupied.
To be honest...you are given the opportunity to qualify for the Championship during the season...the grinder will do exactly as it is designed to do...fill in the last spots for Worlds...No where is it written or intended to be the last chance for those "who deserve to play because of their greatness".
At least 100 "great" players from around the world will enter...most of them will not make it...there are only a few spots...no matter how we do it, someone is going to cry "foul...I am more deserving of playing than him/her"
Enter or not...your choice
Plus I can guess with some certainty that this will be the grinder format for future. There will be plenty of people who wish to enter and give it a shot....but there are also going to be many side events going that same day to keep everyone occupied.
To be honest...you are given the opportunity to qualify for the Championship during the season...the grinder will do exactly as it is designed to do...fill in the last spots for Worlds...No where is it written or intended to be the last chance for those "who deserve to play because of their greatness".
At least 100 "great" players from around the world will enter...most of them will not make it...there are only a few spots...no matter how we do it, someone is going to cry "foul...I am more deserving of playing than him/her"
Enter or not...your choice
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Pittsburgh Steelers
Member
It's nice because you won't get donked every round by that Tyrouge well in best 2 out of 3, you have a chance. The only thing that's not good about it is... One bad match up. You're done.
TheDarkTwins
Active Member
I was reading the whole thread from when I last posted and was going to say that the numbers given were too high, but Pete posted that for me. I don't expect that we will break 512, if we do, it won't be by much.
As far as power of two in concerned. I'm all for that. I think it is fairer in the first round that say in the last or during the event. I still expect that if the Grinder is not put into two pods, that the number of invites given out will be SIXTEEN. The reason I think at least sixteen is because the past few years they have given out twelve invites. The other thing is that Japan didn't have any invites this year, which is an ADDITIONAL eight invites that should be thrown into the Grinder. Even if they wanted to keep the twelve they normal do, that would mean that we somehow lose eight invites. I can promise you that there are going to be more than twelve people that don't show up. That plus the eight invites is twenty, but you can't do twenty because it is not a power of two. Since that's the case, I would expect two pods (like every year) of about 256 players, who will then play down to a top eight. That's what I'm planning on, that's what I expect. I think it's going to be 5 rounds, or 6 rounds with a bunch of byes. It might be 6 rounds either way due to the byes, but with most players only playing 5 rounds. I just think that personally that's how it's going to be. I could be wrong, but that's just the feel I get based on how P!P has run things in the past.
Drew
As far as power of two in concerned. I'm all for that. I think it is fairer in the first round that say in the last or during the event. I still expect that if the Grinder is not put into two pods, that the number of invites given out will be SIXTEEN. The reason I think at least sixteen is because the past few years they have given out twelve invites. The other thing is that Japan didn't have any invites this year, which is an ADDITIONAL eight invites that should be thrown into the Grinder. Even if they wanted to keep the twelve they normal do, that would mean that we somehow lose eight invites. I can promise you that there are going to be more than twelve people that don't show up. That plus the eight invites is twenty, but you can't do twenty because it is not a power of two. Since that's the case, I would expect two pods (like every year) of about 256 players, who will then play down to a top eight. That's what I'm planning on, that's what I expect. I think it's going to be 5 rounds, or 6 rounds with a bunch of byes. It might be 6 rounds either way due to the byes, but with most players only playing 5 rounds. I just think that personally that's how it's going to be. I could be wrong, but that's just the feel I get based on how P!P has run things in the past.
Drew
Jason
Active Member
How about, normal Swiss rounds, but whoever gets a 3rd loss get automatically dropped/eliminated.
---------- Post added 07/27/2011 at 10:56 PM ----------
edit: hm. i feels all 0-2 to be dropped early and only keep the x-2 in the last 2-3 rounds since its the kind of people who have done so well throughtout the day.
---------- Post added 07/27/2011 at 10:56 PM ----------
edit: hm. i feels all 0-2 to be dropped early and only keep the x-2 in the last 2-3 rounds since its the kind of people who have done so well throughtout the day.
Code:
Best solution ever:
512 masters
256 seniors
256 juniors
MASTERS SRs/JRs
256 1-0 128 1-0
256 0-1 128 0-1
No.left: 512 No.left: 256
128 2-0 64 2-0
256 1-1 128 1-1
128 0-2 DROP 64 0-2 DROP
No.left: 384 No.left: 192
64 3-0 32 3-0
192 2-1 96 2-1
128 1-2 DROP 64 1-2 DROP
No.left: 256 No left: 128
32 4-0 16 4-0
128 3-1 64 3-1
96 2-2 DROP 48 2-2 DROP
No.left: 160 No.left: 80
16 5-0 8 5-0
80 4-1 40 4-1
64 3-2 DROP 32 3-2 DROP
No.left: 96 No.left: 48
8 6-0 4 6-0
48 5-1 24 5-1
40 4-2 DROP 20 4-2 DROP
No.left: 56 No.left: 28
4 7-0 2 7-0
28 6-1 14 6-1
24 5-2 12 5-2
No.left: 56 No.left: 28
2 8-0 1 8-0
16 7-1 8 7-1
26 6-2 13 6-2
12 5-3 6 5-3
No,left: 56 No.left: 28
//end //end
NoPoke
Active Member
Jason, if you use the swiss pair algorithm and multiple players drop then you can no longer guarantee to end with your eight undefeated players. This occurs because the swiss pairs algorithm will allocate a maximum of one bye to each round. Yet with drops you may need multiple byes to maintain the number of active tables in each round at a power of two. It is possible to abuse TOM to get this behaviour but it is risky, the alternative of not allowing drops will leave staff and players confused when opponents don't turn up.
The grinder is matchplay and needs to be completed in the minimum number of rounds otherwise there will be a lot of tired staff.
The grinder is matchplay and needs to be completed in the minimum number of rounds otherwise there will be a lot of tired staff.
GinoLombardi21
New Member
600 people in attendance
After R1 - 300 ppl
After R2 - 150 ppl
After R3 - 74 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R4 - 37 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R5 - 19 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R6 - 9+ (1) ppl
If only eight people get invites how do you play out with 10?
300 people in attendance
After R1 - 150 ppl
After R2 - 74 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R3 - 37 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R4 - 19 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R5 - 9+ (1) ppl
If only eight people get invites how do you play out with 10?
THIS IS AN ONGOING PROBLEM! My solution for this is to let the people in the last two rounds get invites. Anyone have any other solutions?
After R1 - 300 ppl
After R2 - 150 ppl
After R3 - 74 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R4 - 37 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R5 - 19 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R6 - 9+ (1) ppl
If only eight people get invites how do you play out with 10?
300 people in attendance
After R1 - 150 ppl
After R2 - 74 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R3 - 37 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R4 - 19 + (1) ppl [next round someone gets a buy]
After R5 - 9+ (1) ppl
If only eight people get invites how do you play out with 10?
THIS IS AN ONGOING PROBLEM! My solution for this is to let the people in the last two rounds get invites. Anyone have any other solutions?
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bullados
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?
Gino, it's already been stated by Pete what's going to happen in the LCQ.
The first round will give byes to exactly the number of people necessary to get down to the next power of two. And from there, power of twos happen exactly until you get down to 8 players.
In your first example, 512 is the highest power of two below 600. So there will be 88 matches (176 players), and the rest of the players get byes (424).
In your second, 256 is the highest power of 2 below 300. So there will be 44 matches (88 players), and the rest of the players get byes (212).
The first round will give byes to exactly the number of people necessary to get down to the next power of two. And from there, power of twos happen exactly until you get down to 8 players.
In your first example, 512 is the highest power of two below 600. So there will be 88 matches (176 players), and the rest of the players get byes (424).
In your second, 256 is the highest power of 2 below 300. So there will be 44 matches (88 players), and the rest of the players get byes (212).
TheDarkTwins
Active Member
Pete did say only 8, but I wouldn't be shocked if they raise the number based on how many players ACTUALLY register for Worlds is lower than what they expect, which it usually is. I mean I can see it being change to T16 because the fact that Japan who has 8 invites every year, didn't get any. It would be logical sense if they were to move those into the Grinder. I mean the past few years the cut has been 12 players in Masters and even more in the other two age groups. I seriously think that it might get pushed to 16 players. If it is 8, with the amount of players I expect that's either 7 or 8 rounds including the bye rounds. If it's 16, then 6 or 7 rounds including the bye rounds.
Drew
bullados
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?
Drew, if there's no more than 512 players, then there would be 6 rounds. 512 is 2^9. 8 is 2^3. Subtract the exponents, and you get the number of rounds. Pete's already stated that they're expecting no more than 256 in each Jr and Sr divisions, and around 512 in the Masters. They're certainly not expecting any age group to exceed 1024 players.
The LCQ will likely not exceed 7 rounds.
And I agree with you that it might be raised to 16 LCQ invites. But that's not a given. That's speculation. I'm putting stock in the 8 LCQ invites, and I would be surprised and thankful if there are any more than that.
The LCQ will likely not exceed 7 rounds.
And I agree with you that it might be raised to 16 LCQ invites. But that's not a given. That's speculation. I'm putting stock in the 8 LCQ invites, and I would be surprised and thankful if there are any more than that.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
Well LCQ'ers, if you have any intent to walk away from this thing from an invite...Be prepared for a long day. If you look at the number of accepted invites on P!P's Worlds site, it has over 150 names...Meaning that they will almost certainly not give out more than eight invites (thereby confirming the change in text between years). Thus, best be prepared for the following...
Round one: mass byes except for 40-120 people (unless attendance is <512, which I doubt)
Round two: from 512 to 256
Round three: 256 -> 128
Round four: 128 -> 64
Round five: 64 -> 32
Round six: 32 -> 16
Round seven: 16 ->8 [Unless P!P wants to be really nice and give out 16 invites, thereby saving the judges a whole hour of work? 0=) ]
TOTAL EVENT LENGTH: ~9-12 hours
(Total games to be played by a Worlds qualifier: 12 - 21)
---------- Post added 08/05/2011 at 06:30 PM ----------
Has P!P decided on a time limit for the LCQ 2/3 matches? 45 minutes versus 60 minutes is pretty significant.
Round one: mass byes except for 40-120 people (unless attendance is <512, which I doubt)
Round two: from 512 to 256
Round three: 256 -> 128
Round four: 128 -> 64
Round five: 64 -> 32
Round six: 32 -> 16
Round seven: 16 ->8 [Unless P!P wants to be really nice and give out 16 invites, thereby saving the judges a whole hour of work? 0=) ]
TOTAL EVENT LENGTH: ~9-12 hours
(Total games to be played by a Worlds qualifier: 12 - 21)
---------- Post added 08/05/2011 at 06:30 PM ----------
Has P!P decided on a time limit for the LCQ 2/3 matches? 45 minutes versus 60 minutes is pretty significant.
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DukeFireBird
Gallery Administrator<br>Forum Moderator
Cyrus, thats a very nice chart. I would surmise that once we get down to the round of 64 or 32, that the judges may request the players to stay nearby so the next rounds can start quickly, of course allowing for restroom break, snack break, etc.
If we assume 45 minute matches @ 7 rounds = 315 minutes = 6 hours 15 minutes of playing time,
if we assume 60 minute matches @ 7 rounds = 420 minutes = 7 hours of playing time.
Add in 15 minutes between for paperwork if there are NO SD matches per round, 90 minutes total.
But lets give 30 for SD matches for a total of 180 minutes.
7 hours 45 minutes in best case, 10 hours for worst case by my numbers.
Remember though, as the numbers dwindle, less paperwork verification needed as judges/runners can make doubly sure about winners before the match slips are finalized.
If we assume 45 minute matches @ 7 rounds = 315 minutes = 6 hours 15 minutes of playing time,
if we assume 60 minute matches @ 7 rounds = 420 minutes = 7 hours of playing time.
Add in 15 minutes between for paperwork if there are NO SD matches per round, 90 minutes total.
But lets give 30 for SD matches for a total of 180 minutes.
7 hours 45 minutes in best case, 10 hours for worst case by my numbers.
Remember though, as the numbers dwindle, less paperwork verification needed as judges/runners can make doubly sure about winners before the match slips are finalized.
TheDarkTwins
Active Member
It's most likely going to be 1 hour +3. I don't see them doing less than that. I guess they could, but 45 minutes isn't really a fair way to do it. I mean that's going to cause way too many issues.
I'm expecting 1 hour time limited with 16 invites. I won't be shocked if there was only 8 given out, but that's what I'm planning for. I'm prepared and ready for the Grinder, so I'm not worried about it, and good for whatever it might be. Should be a blast anyway you look at it. :thumb:
Drew
I'm expecting 1 hour time limited with 16 invites. I won't be shocked if there was only 8 given out, but that's what I'm planning for. I'm prepared and ready for the Grinder, so I'm not worried about it, and good for whatever it might be. Should be a blast anyway you look at it. :thumb:
Drew