The rulebook puts checking for a mulligan, then putting down basics. There's no argument here. Give it up. So what if it's an advantage? If you want a game where everyone starts with the same advantage, go play poker.
Mulligan Charade - Who Shows First?
- Thread starter SLOW DECK
- Start date
The rulebook puts checking for a mulligan, then putting down basics. There's no argument here. Give it up. So what if it's an advantage? If you want a game where everyone starts with the same advantage, go play poker.
How does that make a difference though? After a player has set out their basic, the mulligan draw is irrelevant. If that draw is a basic, they can't swap it out as their active. That active is essentially locked into place.
Now as far as them knowing what you're playing.....if you show them your hand before they set a basic down, that's kind of your own fault.
But downright baiting your opponent into a setup? That can easily be looked at as SOTG.
As the judge that was involved with that match, Mike's report was right. I was dumbfounded by what had happened, because I had never seen this happen before, ever. This was part of the reason that I brought my head judge and the rest of the team into it. I didn't want to make an incorrect call on something I wasn't totally sure of. It was hard to swallow when the penalty was given, because it was clear that a huge advantage was given, and both players were doing a great job so far.
this is really sad having high level of play/competition leads to this kinds of things. This are things that i encountered playing Magic The Gathering, high level players dont want to lose so theyll take advantage of every wrong move you do and capitalize on it.
IMO placing a false basic/starter is wrong first for the reason that you place basic/fossil only and not some random cards. this is simply an example of taking advantage you also misrepresented and made your opponent decide wrongly (assuming that he considered your side of the field).
I believe this is due to the DONK ERA where there is a possiblity that if your opponent only plays 1 basic you can reach for a donk for an easy win that may also be the reason why this issue was never brought up before.
Lets not over complicate things
1. draw 7 cards
2. play basic/s
3. declare mulligan
4. start the game
i know that some players take pokemon tcg as their life (like MTG) but wouldn't it be more fun if play competitively and enjoy at the same time.
IMO placing a false basic/starter is wrong first for the reason that you place basic/fossil only and not some random cards. this is simply an example of taking advantage you also misrepresented and made your opponent decide wrongly (assuming that he considered your side of the field).
I believe this is due to the DONK ERA where there is a possiblity that if your opponent only plays 1 basic you can reach for a donk for an easy win that may also be the reason why this issue was never brought up before.
Lets not over complicate things
1. draw 7 cards
2. play basic/s
3. declare mulligan
4. start the game
i know that some players take pokemon tcg as their life (like MTG) but wouldn't it be more fun if play competitively and enjoy at the same time.
shivknight
New Member
This, why didn't anyone even acknowledge it. Double blind pick is used in Smash as well, as a real and practical solution to prevent diverse players from counterpicking their opponents. Of course this is slightly different, but I think an analogous solution can be used.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
He hadn't flipped his basic over to start the game by this point; he was setting prizes out.
That said, this is just one of those MINOR quirks that comes with any game. It's been here from the very start and who's to say that the advantage of knowing how many Pokemon your opponent is starting off with (or thinking you know since they can still have more basics in their hand they haven't played yet) wasn't an intended benefit? That's just assumption if you say it wasn't intended. It's not like the player having to draw a new hand can magically pull that one card they think they need to win anyhow, unless of course they are somehow stacking their deck.
This is really a non issue that comes up when someone over thinks the game.
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I dunno I always played it that before the coin flip to see who goes first, you can switch your Pokemon from the bench and active spots face down however you like, just can't pick them up or put new ones down. I always do that and have never been called on it. I even did it in one game where a judge was watching, he called me instead for drawing a card before putting down my prizes in a mulligan but let me switch my facedown stuff.
I think people are also forgetting that starting with a mulligan is supposed to be a disadvantage to you and to discourage people from playing too few basics in their deck.
I think people are also forgetting that starting with a mulligan is supposed to be a disadvantage to you and to discourage people from playing too few basics in their deck.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
WTG! Rock. Hard Spot. No longer between them. Is there any way this can be added to the Compendium under the General Game Play section, or would someone have to raise the specific question in Ask the Rules Team first?
Donking has been part of the game from day one. Nothing new here.
Then you've been playing wrong. You can't switch your Pokemon, but you can play down more basics before the game starts. As to the Judge he was either off in la-la land or ill informed. They aren't always perfect.
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waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
So you can actually play the card you drew from mulligan? Just want to make sure for the future
Yep, sure can (if it's a basic Pokemon or Fossil).
I was under the impression that you could only play a Fossil card during setup if it was your only "basic"... is this not correct?
There is a reason the Mulligan section is in a box.
It's outside the normal procedure.
Putting it in a box takes it outside the timing of the normal set up.
Player A continues with his set up while Player B resolves their Mulligan.
There is NO indication of when the Mulligan is declared or shown relative to where Player A is in their set up process.
Player B can wait to show Player A their Mulligan until A has placed their Active.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
Both players "waiting"? Then declare the Mulligan but don't show it.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
Player A or Player B can place more Pokemon down at any time before the coin flip (die roll) is made to determine who goes first.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
Player A is allowed to place down additional Pokemon that they draw in their extra cards.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
As for Fossils: They are treated as Basics during Set Up. In every way.
There is no restriction on playing them at any time during set up.
It's outside the normal procedure.
Putting it in a box takes it outside the timing of the normal set up.
Player A continues with his set up while Player B resolves their Mulligan.
There is NO indication of when the Mulligan is declared or shown relative to where Player A is in their set up process.
Player B can wait to show Player A their Mulligan until A has placed their Active.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
Both players "waiting"? Then declare the Mulligan but don't show it.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
Player A or Player B can place more Pokemon down at any time before the coin flip (die roll) is made to determine who goes first.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
Player A is allowed to place down additional Pokemon that they draw in their extra cards.
There is no problem with this under current rules.
As for Fossils: They are treated as Basics during Set Up. In every way.
There is no restriction on playing them at any time during set up.
Players (and judges, apparently!) should reread the Compendiums "Starting the Game" sub-section, found in the General Gameplay section.
http://compendium.pokegym.net/compendium-lvx.html#c9
Here is one ruling from that section:
Bold added for emphasis.
http://compendium.pokegym.net/compendium-lvx.html#c9
Here is one ruling from that section:
Bold added for emphasis.
vanderbilt_grad
New Member
Drawing 1 extra card can really change the odds of certain hand combos.
For example you are playing GeChamp. Your hand is Gastly, Machop, Machoke, Machamp, Fighting Energy, Call Energy, and Night Maintenance. Your deck has 4 Rare Candy & 4 BTS. Gastly is the safe start since you can trainer lock going first or second. However you can donk a lot of stuff with Machamp … if you can just draw that Candy or BTS. You don’t have a Candy or a BTS in hand or a way to draw more cards right away … but the odds of drawing into one of those 3 are obviously better if you get to draw a card for starting your turn and an extra card for a mulligan. Knowing that your opponent has a mulligan could really make a difference in which card you choose to start with.
That’s just one example. Similar situations exist for SP. You have Ambipom G, Luxray GL, Luxray GL lv.X, Lightning Energy, etc. in hand … but no DCE or Energy Gain. Luxray is the safer start, but with extra cards to draw the odds of you getting DCE or Gain are pretty good.
In these situations the player who needs just 1 card out of many that he runs gains a material advantage by waiting to see if his opponent has a mulligan or not before deciding to place his starter.
This has nothing to do with the quoted rules about swapping starters. The player who “needs just 1 more card” can legally wait to see what his opponent does before he plops down his own starter right now. The “needs just 1 more card” guy isn’t going to swap once he makes his decision … he’s just waiting until he knows whether or not he’s got a 1 card advantage based off his opponent mulliganing or not.
In the first situation player A has a material advantage if he waits for player B to declare a mulligan before he puts down his first basic.
In the second situation we have what Rob described as a staring contest where event / game time is wasted while both players try to prevent the other from gaining advantage.
For example you are playing GeChamp. Your hand is Gastly, Machop, Machoke, Machamp, Fighting Energy, Call Energy, and Night Maintenance. Your deck has 4 Rare Candy & 4 BTS. Gastly is the safe start since you can trainer lock going first or second. However you can donk a lot of stuff with Machamp … if you can just draw that Candy or BTS. You don’t have a Candy or a BTS in hand or a way to draw more cards right away … but the odds of drawing into one of those 3 are obviously better if you get to draw a card for starting your turn and an extra card for a mulligan. Knowing that your opponent has a mulligan could really make a difference in which card you choose to start with.
That’s just one example. Similar situations exist for SP. You have Ambipom G, Luxray GL, Luxray GL lv.X, Lightning Energy, etc. in hand … but no DCE or Energy Gain. Luxray is the safer start, but with extra cards to draw the odds of you getting DCE or Gain are pretty good.
In these situations the player who needs just 1 card out of many that he runs gains a material advantage by waiting to see if his opponent has a mulligan or not before deciding to place his starter.
This has nothing to do with the quoted rules about swapping starters. The player who “needs just 1 more card” can legally wait to see what his opponent does before he plops down his own starter right now. The “needs just 1 more card” guy isn’t going to swap once he makes his decision … he’s just waiting until he knows whether or not he’s got a 1 card advantage based off his opponent mulliganing or not.
In the first situation player A has a material advantage if he waits for player B to declare a mulligan before he puts down his first basic.
In the second situation we have what Rob described as a staring contest where event / game time is wasted while both players try to prevent the other from gaining advantage.
@VG: What advantage will be gained though? The non mulligan player still has to go 2nd to use the RC or the BTS. If you win the flip, you go 1st (unless the oppo plays sableye). The flip happens AFTER both set up. So, even if the player is "one card away", depending on the flip, whether a player plays sableye, a trainer lock ie gastly or spiritomb makes a world of difference.
Simply knowing the oppo HAS a mulligan doesnt give you a great advantage. You wont SEE what he is playing until you place a basic face down, then look at oppo's hand to verify mulligan. The player will still have to elect the "safe" route or the gambling route. It is a player's choice. By laying down an ILLEGAL choice to feign a basic and not reveal a mulligan decision AFFECTS the other player too! They BELEIVE you are indicating a basic and are ready to go. That isnt true. The rules state the player has the right to now if the oppo mulligans DURING their set up. Again, ANY deck can mulligan, whether you are playng SP, stage 2, stage 1, theme deck, etc.
The rules clearly state the player must lay down a basic or fossil in the active position. IF you lay anything else down, you have a minimum of a game state error. IMO, you have intentionally mislead your oppo and as such, can be subject to the "dubious game action" section. Why go there when we have rules in place on how to set up and play?? Seriously folks, maybe too many of you are playing Poker and are into the "I know more than you" "I dont want you to have any info about my hand" era. It is a GAME. There is supposed to be SotG. Why are you pulling shenanigans?? It is a pure angle shoot to lay down a false basic. Simple as that. Call a spade a spade.
Keith
EDIT: There will be no staring contest bc the judge will ask why you havent set up. If players tell me they are waiting for the other to declare something and the nearly 2 mins for set up has been exhausted....there will be penalties. Are you here to play Pokemon or to have a staring contest??? Seriously. Just ask your oppo if he/she is ready to declare basic choice or mulligan. I'm playing my deck. I will make the choice that is best suited to my opening hand irregardless of my oppo's choice. If I can go off with an early RC/BTS Machamp, I will go that route (thats the way the deck is built silly, to chew up basics!) Same with other decks.
Simply knowing the oppo HAS a mulligan doesnt give you a great advantage. You wont SEE what he is playing until you place a basic face down, then look at oppo's hand to verify mulligan. The player will still have to elect the "safe" route or the gambling route. It is a player's choice. By laying down an ILLEGAL choice to feign a basic and not reveal a mulligan decision AFFECTS the other player too! They BELEIVE you are indicating a basic and are ready to go. That isnt true. The rules state the player has the right to now if the oppo mulligans DURING their set up. Again, ANY deck can mulligan, whether you are playng SP, stage 2, stage 1, theme deck, etc.
The rules clearly state the player must lay down a basic or fossil in the active position. IF you lay anything else down, you have a minimum of a game state error. IMO, you have intentionally mislead your oppo and as such, can be subject to the "dubious game action" section. Why go there when we have rules in place on how to set up and play?? Seriously folks, maybe too many of you are playing Poker and are into the "I know more than you" "I dont want you to have any info about my hand" era. It is a GAME. There is supposed to be SotG. Why are you pulling shenanigans?? It is a pure angle shoot to lay down a false basic. Simple as that. Call a spade a spade.
Keith
EDIT: There will be no staring contest bc the judge will ask why you havent set up. If players tell me they are waiting for the other to declare something and the nearly 2 mins for set up has been exhausted....there will be penalties. Are you here to play Pokemon or to have a staring contest??? Seriously. Just ask your oppo if he/she is ready to declare basic choice or mulligan. I'm playing my deck. I will make the choice that is best suited to my opening hand irregardless of my oppo's choice. If I can go off with an early RC/BTS Machamp, I will go that route (thats the way the deck is built silly, to chew up basics!) Same with other decks.
vanderbilt_grad
New Member
It's the math Keith. Small tilts in the odds can make a big difference. Further, think Top Cut. Game 2 you might get to pick to go 2nd. I will say that the advantage to you isn't seeing what your opponent has in the cases we are talking about. It's all about the mathematical odds of being able to do one thing or another.
I also said nothing about Rob's "false start" idea. By the "letter of the law" you are correct that what Rob suggested is "dubious" but at the same time it's actually creating a more "fair" game state. I think that where Rob and others have tried to go is along the lines of "so what can we do to fix things so that no one is breaking the rules as written yet at the same time we avoid silly mulligan issues."
This is a game ... but if folks see a problem why shouldn't they suggest ways to make it better?
I also said nothing about Rob's "false start" idea. By the "letter of the law" you are correct that what Rob suggested is "dubious" but at the same time it's actually creating a more "fair" game state. I think that where Rob and others have tried to go is along the lines of "so what can we do to fix things so that no one is breaking the rules as written yet at the same time we avoid silly mulligan issues."
This is a game ... but if folks see a problem why shouldn't they suggest ways to make it better?
qft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!17
@VG: I understand odds and probability probably better than most. My undergrad degree was in Math w/ probability and stats my focus. That being said, you still play your deck in the fashion that suits it best. If you are playing a donking deck (Champ, Kingdra, Donphan, sablelock, pluff, etc) you go with the best one for that deck. Same with SP's.
Bottom line...the rules state that the player w/o the mulligan should garner that tidbit during their set up. They still dont get to see the oppo's hand until after they placed their active face down and lay out their prizes. The player not wanting to reveal the mulligan situation at all is the one trying to cull all the advantages back to them! The rules say that isnt the case.
Keith
Bottom line...the rules state that the player w/o the mulligan should garner that tidbit during their set up. They still dont get to see the oppo's hand until after they placed their active face down and lay out their prizes. The player not wanting to reveal the mulligan situation at all is the one trying to cull all the advantages back to them! The rules say that isnt the case.
Keith
By coming over and forcing a player to act first you are already passively penalizing them.
Decks can be designed to do more than one thing. Knowing what your odds of being able to achieve one result over another (which has nothing to do with the opponent's setup, but everything to do with WHETHER they mulligan or not) is crucial to starting your game correctly.
As judges and rules teams and owners of the game, we are here to set in stone how the game should be played. When we start leaving things up to the players to decide how the rules of the game go we get into situations like this. Judges need to have a clear cut guide to how things have to be done, that's what we're here to discuss. It also has to be free of any problems. That's our job. The players merely have to play within the results of our job.
---------- Post added 07/27/2010 at 09:30 AM ----------
Actually there's debate about that fact. The rulebook seems to still be being interpreted. I'll have to go back myself and relook at things when I have more time.
How do I penalize them if I ask "Why haven't you set up?" If the answer is "I'm waiting for my oppo to place 1st"...then HOUSTON, we have a problem. We dont have enough judges to sit at every table for every rd for the angle shooters of the world out there (yes, I just called you an angle shooter) to hear a whisper on who you will start with (as suggested on the counter pickers on VG's). Come on...really????
Answer me this. Whose deck failed if you have a mulligan and the oppo does not? Who SHOULD gain the advantage? The player who didnt mulligan! Thats what our rules say. I understand the math involved with getting 1 extra card, plus the card you draw to start your turn. It could make a big difference. So does the flip of the coin/roll of the die to see who goes 1st in a game!
Keith
---------- Post added 07/27/2010 at 09:38 AM ----------
@Ditto: I'd say 'Pop's take on it is pretty solid. He is on the rules team and will be HJ @ worlds. I'd say his word is better good. :thumb:
It is a declaration only that you have a mulligan. You dont have to show until they place their active.
Keith
PS I was HJ at US Nats 2010 MAs. I will be HJ at Worlds LCQ MAs 2010. I think my word is fairly solid also. :wink: I'm not suggesting the debate should end. Just stating that you haven't convinced 'Pop or I (and others) yet on why this is truly a problem.
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And where does it say that the opponent should gain this advantage?
The DECLARATION of the mulligan is the PROBLEM itself. That's the knowledge that is causing the advantage.
And while your word is solid, your thinking about game theory and dedication to the seriousness of this game seems to be not. This is our job to nit pick the fine details of the processes used in this game. You always seem to take a whimsical hand wavy "it'll work out" approach, rather than addressing the issues you should address.