Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

National's Coin Manipulation Issue

pokemaster1970 said:
This is exactly why Magic TCG is so much more popular, and better run game than Pokemon. MTG isn't hamstrung by a company 3000 miles across the ocean, and the rules are are RULES, not guidlines like pokemon judges like to use as their excuse for not doing anything. Pokemon rules are so loosely interpreted, it's ridiculous.
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You've obviously never been rules lawyered in M:TG before. While the ruling may be more clear cut, it also makes for a larger majority of jerks.

I played M:TG for quite a couple of years and the community is what keeps me away. Something you also have to consider when comparing Magic and Pokemon is Magic has no luck anywhere in its game at all. The most luck you will have is off top decks, so the worst aspect of cheating in M:TG will be deck stacking (Which still happens, mind you.), whereas pokemon has to deal with coin flips/die rolls/what have you which adds another thing that judges have to pay attention for.

I also take offense to you stating that pokemon judges do nothing. There are a lot of hard working people in the company, and you don't seem to realize that they can't be there at all times to do everything. As I said above, Pokemon Judges have MORE on their plate than M:TG judges having to deal with players of ALL ages, whereas M:TG judges cater to a more teenage-middle age playerbase. I live in a state where I witness 3 hard working PTO's put together events and keep a very large amount of competent judges around, in addition to Professor meetings every few months to keep the judges on our feet. If you're trying to state that Pokemon judges are lazy and incompetent, then perhaps you should give it a shot and see just how capable you are, because I know very few people in this game who work harder.

I'll admit, I've seen my fair share of bad judges. Ones that let the power go to their heads, ones that do nothing, ones that actually dont know anything about the rulings they're calling! But most judges, especially at the national level do more than go to tournaments and judge for free product. Its asinine to speak otherwise.

Perhaps you should think before you go around insulting the people who try their hardest to make this game possible for you.
 
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This coinflip thing, I have to say is unfortunately, for me, just another example of people trying to do to much to win. I agree completely that 1/2 of this game is flips right now, but now that peopel have found ways to manipulate, when it is so relevant makes me sad. I think that if this is a big issue for you your best bet is to honestly try magic, as Naki said it is deck stacking the main cheating, which if you shuffle good enough can be stopped. IDK how I would fix this problem, but I do have faith that the judges will find some way to stop it. I do however don't neccassarily disagree w/ people who practice their flips, if they want to put that time into the game that's fine. It's like people testing their deck, to an extent. If it's a legal flip, but they find a way to get it to go their way, I can't do anything about, and I guess in a way I'm okay with that, if you practice it, and it's technically legal, I can't stop it. Lastly I do have to say I am glad, and proud, to know that I didn't have any real way of manipulating my flips(someone tried to teach me, but i really couldn't figure out how it worked) and I also know that my opponents didn't manipulate theirs either,so I'm glad I got to play fair games, and in the SOTG. Makes me sad that people would cheat like that, but hey i've only been playing for 3 years and i'll still say this is better than what happened to me in yugioh.
 
pokemaster1970 said:
This is exactly why Magic TCG is so much more popular, and better run game than Pokemon. MTG isn't hamstrung by a company 3000 miles across the ocean, and the rules are are RULES, not guidlines like pokemon judges like to use as their excuse for not doing anything. Pokemon rules are so loosely interpreted, it's ridiculous.
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The rules in Pokemon are the rules. There is no loose interpretation of the rules, there is no 'guidelines' for the rules. The only guidelines are the penalty guidelines. These are guidelines to allow for Judges to escalate or deescalate penalties based on their impact on the gamestate. Would you rather these be set in stone? If so, you may want to rethink that real fast. Should every single person forgetting their prize cards just get a Warning? Or should every single one get a Game loss?

Two situations -

First, Your opponent forgets their prizes cards, searches their deck a dozen times, gets every important card on the field, and then says "Oh hey, I forgot my prizes!". They got set up with all 60 cards available.

Second, you forget your prize cards, draw for turn, and then realize. You have done nothing except draw a single card.

Do these players deserve the same penalty? Or do you want the Penalty Guidelines to be Guidelines, so that Judges are allowed to give a Game Loss in the first Situation, and only a Warning in the second?

You do not get to slam the people who work hard to make this game fun for you. Yes, some judges may or may not be the best. But at the National level, every single person on staff there IS the best. You do not get to even imply that these people are lazy, or incompetent. If you like Magic so much, please go play that.
 
Knowing several judges(including some who judged nats) I completely agree with this, most judges do put in work and try to do their best, some, yes aren't as good as others, but there are many excellent judges and to bash them like that imo is just wrong.
 
Naki Feralkin said:
in MTG the ruling may be more clear cut.................

Something you also have to consider when comparing Magic and Pokemon is Magic has no luck anywhere in its game at all. The most luck you will have is off top decks, so the worst aspect of cheating in M:TG will be deck stacking (Which still happens, mind you.), whereas pokemon has to deal with coin flips/die rolls/what have you which adds another thing that judges have to pay attention for.


.
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Thanks for making my point for me..........................................
 
Is it against the rules to try and flip heads? In other words, is the mere attempt to do so illegal? If a player prays to god that they get a heads is that somehow wrong as well. What we have to consider here is whether this is even possible - my son used to think he could manipulate the die in any game we played with some fancy ritual, but in reality all he remembered was the lucky streaks. Even if someone COULD garner a 5% advantage through countless hours of practice - do the rules specifically state that this is illegal or are we now talking ethics i.e should a flip/roll be truly random? . Before everyone gets too nasty, I hope some of these questions can be answered. EVERYONE has begged and pleaded with their dice to be heads as if some greater force would come to their aid - is this wrong as well? You are wanting a result that is contrary to the whole idea of randomness....I understand the concern over manipulation of what is a randomizer, but is this outside the rules? I'm not finding it anywhere....We need to look at rules changes if in fact this is what POP or Japan truly wants... If not, start practicing your flipping..... I myself have far better things to do.....
 
billbilski said:
Is it against the rules to try and flip heads? In other words, is the mere attempt to do so illegal? If a player prays to god that they get a heads is that somehow wrong as well. What we have to consider here is whether this is even possible - my son used to think he could manipulate the die in any game we played with some fancy ritual, but in reality all he remembered was the lucky streaks. Even if someone COULD garner a 5% advantage through countless hours of practice - do the rules specifically state that this is illegal or are we now talking ethics i.e should a flip/roll be truly random? . Before everyone gets too nasty, I hope some of these questions can be answered. EVERYONE has begged and pleaded with their dice to be heads as if some greater force would come to their aid - is this wrong as well? You are wanting a result that is contrary to the whole idea of randomness....I understand the concern over manipulation of what is a randomizer, but is this outside the rules? I'm not finding it anywhere....We need to look at rules changes if in fact this is what POP or Japan truly wants... If not, start practicing your flipping..... I myself have far better things to do.....
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This is a lot more then just a ritual or praying. This is the father openly admitted that they practiced so the randomizer is no longer random. This is far different then a ritual or praying. The player knew what he was doing sense he refused to ever change his coin until literally forced in top 2. No that technique, nor is any coin flipping technique 100% accurate, but the guidelines says "Attempting to Manipulate a random result" and that is what he did.

I'm going to go back to the casino reference. People pray before they flip the card or roll the dice. Little rituals are done, kissing the dice, or whatever, but we all know none of those will have a REAL affect on the suppose to be luck based outcome. When a casino goer starts counting cards, they are cheating, and manipulating things so it goes into their own favor, which is wrong, Which is what happen in this situation of Pokemon.

And honestly I will say yes it is against the rules to TRY and flip a heads. Now before anyone says something here is why. Because trying to flip a heads, and WANTING to flip a heads are two different things. Wanting means you want to, and in this situation have no real control. Trying to makes it makes it seem as you have some control, and in an event that is meant to be random, you shouldn't have any control on the outcome.
 
Re: point #2, and building upon billbilski's point of "where is it in the rules", we're only left with 7.6.4, a penalty guideline for "Cheating". If we look at all of the listed examples of cheating:

  • Drawing extra cards.
  • Taking cards from the discard pile and adding them to your hand or deck.
  • Offering some form of compensation to an opponent for a concession.
  • Altering match results after the conclusion of the match.
  • Playing with marked cards.
  • Lying to event staff.
  • Arbitrarily adjusting the Special Conditions or damage counters put on any Pokémon in play.
  • Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.
  • Attempting to manipulate a random result.
  • Stacking your deck.

These are really intentional acts that require a physical action that if caught, it's easy to say "you cheated!"

So part of the reason people are questioning this is the applicability is the use of the word "attempting" in that one example. If we take this in the most serious form, I imagine the scenario is someone rolling a die, it coming up tails, but then they quickly changing the die to heads (as if the opponent wasn't looking). Or a die landed on slight angle unfavorably and they quickly scoop it up to re-roll.

The "attempt" in question in this thread is the belief that the player has the skill to skew the outcome of a coin flip. That just feels really, really different than the severity of these other cheating examples.
 
I'm going to just say one thing then i think i'm done w/ this thread tbh

1). I think this proves how stupid the format is. We are not discussing what decks won, who thought of that great deck idea, how did T-tar go so far, we are discussing flipping coins. If that doesn't prove that this game is too luck based etc. I don't what does and tbh I want someone who's really gutsy, and obviously knows all the tricks to flipping coins or dice, to win with a TYROGUE deck, that would prove coin flips need to be less relevant in this game.
 
i personally hope pokemon reallizes what needs to be done. but in this situation can and how will he be punished? take his worlds invite? ban him for X time? As far as im aware he cant really be "punished" because its after the fact. id hate to be him though because a majority of players are now aware that he cheats. my biggest fear is that this will make people think "well a national champion got away with cheating why cant i?" and then it will create a cheating atmosphere.

CFOURCOLTSFAN said:
I'm going to just say one thing then i think i'm done w/ this thread tbh

1). I think this proves how stupid the format is. We are not discussing what decks won, who thought of that great deck idea, how did T-tar go so far, we are discussing flipping coins. If that doesn't prove that this game is too luck based etc. I don't what does and tbh I want someone who's really gutsy, and obviously knows all the tricks to flipping coins or dice, to win with a TYROGUE deck, that would prove coin flips need to be less relevant in this game.
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keep in mind that many players wanted and this and also if we didn't think about how many sabledonks there would have been. yes it vary luck based but it does also take skill as long as you don't cheat. i wish the current format was better but its what we've got so i say lets just keep moving forward and hope it gets better. :smile:
 
the real crobat kid! said:
keep in mind that many players wanted and this and also if we didn't think about how many sabledonks there would have been. yes it vary luck based but it does also take skill as long as you don't cheat. i wish the current format was better but its what we've got so i say lets just keep moving forward and hope it gets better. :smile:
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I agree with you, an MD-BW format would have been way too luck based, but not in the way it is now. Right now baby flips and reversal flips are the biggest forms of luck, but in MD-BW going 1st is even a bigger advantage then now.
 
the real crobat kid! said:
i personally hope pokemon reallizes what needs to be done. but in this situation can and how will he be punished? take his worlds invite? ban him for X time? As far as im aware he cant really be "punished" because its after the fact. id hate to be him though because a majority of players are now aware that he cheats. my biggest fear is that this will make people think "well a national champion got away with cheating why cant i?" and then it will create a cheating atmosphere.
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To be very clear about the reasoning for my post above, my argument/sentiment is that the "attempt" claiming he has a skill is not the same as the cheating examples cited.

Feel free to argue the opposite that he did "cheat" by the definition of these guidelines, but let's just not assume it's a foregone conclusion. Clearly P!P did not conclude he was cheating at the time otherwise the game wouldn't have progressed.
 
At larger tournaments (Regions, Nationals, Worlds) there should be official dice at each table with the match slip. Players are allowed to use personal randomizers initially. If at any point int he match your opponent requests that you use the official dice, you must comply. Refusing to comply would result in a 1 prize penalty. Then, at the end of the match the dice must be turned in with the match slip. Failing to turn the dice in would result in a round loss for BOTH players.

I know that this seems harsh, but those tournaments are the "big leagues." Judges could be around to help Juniors to remember to turn the dice back in. Seniors and Masters should not have a problem with this at all. This would make the randomness of the flips/rolls in the game be completely reliant on P!P.
 
ajhawk said:
At larger tournaments (Regions, Nationals, Worlds) there should be official dice at each table with the match slip. Players are allowed to use personal randomizers initially. If at any point int he match your opponent requests that you use the official dice, you must comply. Refusing to comply would result in a 1 prize penalty. Then, at the end of the match the dice must be turned in with the match slip. Failing to turn the dice in would result in a round loss for BOTH players.

I know that this seems harsh, but those tournaments are the "big leagues." Judges could be around to help Juniors to remember to turn the dice back in. Seniors and Masters should not have a problem with this at all. This would make the randomness of the flips/rolls in the game be completely reliant on P!P.
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I can see it now...

"That other guy in my team is about to make top cut, but he will get crushed by this guy that just beat me. I'll just steal the die, get us both a game loss, and pull him out of top cut for my friend!"
 
losjackal said:
To be very clear about the reasoning for my post above, my argument/sentiment is that the "attempt" claiming he has a skill is not the same as the cheating examples cited.

Feel free to argue the opposite that he did "cheat" by the definition of these guidelines, but let's just not assume it's a foregone conclusion. Clearly P!P did not conclude he was cheating at the time otherwise the game wouldn't have progressed.
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Doesn't that depend on what the Judges knew at the time?

If all they know is that a kid flips a lot of heads, then they can't see an intention to cheat.

On the other hand, what if they had heard the father telling people about how he taught his son to manipulate the flip?
 
Don't use a coin.

Use a dice.

If I'm not mistaken, you can bring up any concerns you have with the randomizer being used with a judge. I assume they'd take care of it, perhaps by providing a different legal randomizer. Also... Metal coins are not allowed as randomizers. Not sure if the coin he was using was plastic or metal, but if it were the latter, it wouldn't be legal to begin with.
 
If you're going to hand players dice, preventing theft could be quite simple. Just make sure the dice is not special (no pokemon stuff on it) and tell players that if they turn in their dice at the end of the rounds, they get their special regionals/states/nationals promo card or promo dice. So instead of giving it in the beginning you give it at the end.
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baby mario said:
Doesn't that depend on what the Judges knew at the time?

If all they know is that a kid flips a lot of heads, then they can't see an intention to cheat.

On the other hand, what if they had heard the father telling people about how he taught his son to manipulate the flip?
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Agreed, I said "at the time" too. LoTad claims the father did defend the practice:

During the finals match, the father of the national champion told the head judge and a Pokemon Official that he and his sons had practiced flipping coins and that they had implemented their learned method in the tournament.
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If true, we are left to conclude they didn't see it as cheating at the time either. Which is why I listed the other, stronger examples of true cheating.
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