National's Coin Manipulation Issue

[SomethingElse]

This is a lot more then just a ritual or praying. This is the father openly admitted that they practiced so the randomizer is no longer random. This is far different then a ritual or praying. The player knew what he was doing sense he refused to ever change his coin until literally forced in top 2. No that technique, nor is any coin flipping technique 100% accurate, but the guidelines says "Attempting to Manipulate a random result" and that is what he did.

I'm going to go back to the casino reference. People pray before they flip the card or roll the dice. Little rituals are done, kissing the dice, or whatever, but we all know none of those will have a REAL affect on the suppose to be luck based outcome. When a casino goer starts counting cards, they are cheating, and manipulating things so it goes into their own favor, which is wrong, Which is what happen in this situation of Pokemon.

And honestly I will say yes it is against the rules to TRY and flip a heads. Now before anyone says something here is why. Because trying to flip a heads, and WANTING to flip a heads are two different things. Wanting means you want to, and in this situation have no real control. Trying to makes it makes it seem as you have some control, and in an event that is meant to be random, you shouldn't have any control on the outcome.

Would just like to say I know the dad, and he tells me this as well, but I have not seen him flip more heads then tails, just in streaks. He still hits about 50% heads, just sometimes he gets a lot of heads and sometimes a lot of tails. I have never seen him able to consistently get flips of heads in a row all the time, and some of you guys are taking this way overboard

 

[jax54]

Clearly P!P did not conclude he was cheating at the time otherwise the game wouldn't have progressed.

Not necessarily true. Perhaps others that were there can say for sure, but it is my understanding from what I was told that this conversation didn't occur until the final game was finishing up...I don't believe any final conclusions have been made on this point yet.

So part of the reason people are questioning this is the applicability is the use of the word "attempting" in that one example. If we take this in the most serious form, I imagine the scenario is someone rolling a die, it coming up tails, but then they quickly changing the die to heads (as if the opponent wasn't looking). Or a die landed on slight angle unfavorably and they quickly scoop it up to re-roll.

Your examples of changing a die position or quickly re-rolling are ACTUAL cheating, not ATTEMPTS at cheating.

The "attempt" in question in this thread is the belief that the player has the skill to skew the outcome of a coin flip.

How can you say that the "attempt" is a belief....the attempt incorporates all of the following that was admitted to both verbally and in writing by the father:

1. The father being taught by a Japanese player to manipulate a coin toss. The father doing further research and teaching his sons how to manipulate a coin toss.
2. The father and sons seeking specific coin styles and weights that best suit their flipping styles, and practicing every day to improve their ability to flip in their favor.
3. After days of daily practice, the father stating that they are all batting about 60-70% on flipping these specially picked coins for a favorable result.
4. The father stating the judges testing the coin when it is complained about by the player's opponents is not a problem because it is not the coin that gets the results, it is the person flipping the coin that makes the difference. The father states that his son practiced with the coin chosen by his son, and did better than the judges on their test flips because his son chose and practiced with his special coin and the judges did not.
5. When the judges gave the player in question a different coin to use late in the final match, the father states that he was given a light US coin, and since he had no practice with the weight of that coin, it threw his son off, and his son got tails the rest of the game. This father feels his son was punished in the finals for being given a different coin to use just because he had gotten good at manipulating his coin flips.

If actual admissions of doing all of this do not constitute an "attempt" to manipulate a random outcome of a coin toss then I think that some people just choose to not believe this is wrong. I just cannot imagine telling a young player that this approach to the game is acceptable.

 

[PokePop]

Not necessarily true. Perhaps others that were there can say for sure, but it is my understanding from what I was told that this conversation didn't occur until the final game was finishing up...I don't believe any final conclusions have been made on this point yet.

I'd consider him having been awarded the National Championship a "final conclusion".

I wasn't judge of that match, but whatever was done or going to be done about it has been done.
Nothing was missed. No penalty is pending.
What was decided to be done, has been done.

 

[Naki Feralkin]

Thanks for making my point for me..........................................

Anytime. The next time you want me to make a point for you about how little you can logically counter someones post, look me up.

If you're stating that I'm saying that Magic rules are more clear cut, you would be correct. M:TG is more straight forward about the rules, no question because it doesn't have to dance around coin flips and status effects. It pretty much says on the card which has to be done.

But wait. We're talking clear cut here, when Magic has new prefixes that come out with each new block. Some of these new prefixes aren't quite so clear cut and some of them definitely have issues. Split Second added confusion to the Stack, which is already a complicated demon on its own. What does Pokemon have? The only thing it adds are different cards with different effects that can change a metagame due to typing and other factors. Why with Uxie so good? Uxie was a card that gave you a professor birch in pokemon form that could be manipulated with Seeker/SSU. Do you think it would be the card that it was if it were a Stage 1? A stage 2? Theres no stupid prefixes with each block, sometimes a new mechanic like Level X or EX, but nothing that really complicates things.

Magic has to deal with the thought of a fight breaking out at any second due to its playerbase because it has no promotion of an SotG. You really think a game like that is superior to that of a TCG run by a company that makes billions of dollars of profit yearly in numerous company and has the ability to PROMOTE this SotG?

I'm not knocking M:TG here, but your ignorant remark pretty much just insulted every single judge who mods or regulars this website. And I would dare say that most of the best judges here could easily run M:TG also. I know I could.

My TLR here is, you would promote a game that has no SotG in a thread where people are discussing a lack of SotG due to cheating. Which disgusts me.

What was decided to be done, has been done.

Definitely something to note. We all know it has been done, and the check is likely already in and cashed, but it should be something to look at for Worlds. What if something like this occurs there in front of everyone when it can be prevented? It can be stopped before it starts. An ounce of prevention, if you will?

 

[losjackal]

jax54, I'm calling it an "attempt" because even with all of that practice and preparation, every flip is a new attempt at getting heads. Just because the last 4 rolls have been heads does not influence the next roll one way of another.

Posted with Mobile style...

 

[jax54]

I'd consider him having been awarded the National Championship a "final conclusion".

I wasn't judge of that match, but whatever was done or going to be done about it has been done.
Nothing was missed. No penalty is pending.
What was decided to be done, has been done.

I have been told by a Pokemon official that this has NOT been decided yet.

 

[PokePop]

I have been told by a Pokemon official that this has NOT been decided yet.

Are you talking about the general case going forward and how this may be handled in the future, or are you talking about this specific game and this specific player?

I'm talking about this specific match and player.
And that is done.

 

[ShuckleLVX]

Don't use a coin.

Use a dice.

If I'm not mistaken, you can bring up any concerns you have with the randomizer being used with a judge. I assume they'd take care of it, perhaps by providing a different legal randomizer. Also... Metal coins are not allowed as randomizers. Not sure if the coin he was using was plastic or metal, but if it were the latter, it wouldn't be legal to begin with.

Metal Coins ARE allowed as randomizers. See:

Any other coin (such as local currency) brought by a player to be used as a randomizer must be approved by both players. Players should consider whether or not the coin in question is light enough to not damage or mark cards it lands on and whether or not heads or tails can be determine at a glance.

Have to be approved by players? Yes. Illegal? No.

 

[jax54]

Are you talking about the general case going forward and how this may be handled in the future, or are you talking about this specific game and this specific player?

I'm talking about this specific match and player.
And that is done.

It is my impression that both are still under consideration.

 

[Infernape Master]

I'm sorry but this is stupid. First of all I have talk to Dave and ask him his side of the story because there is always two sides and he told me while in test play he used a coin. So that tells me that yes he use a coin while practicing and got used to the feeling of a coin and may have even been able to flip heads more often then not. He is allowed to use a coin!!!! If you think about it was all try to hit heads meaning we all try to change the dice roll or coin flip to flip/roll what we want. He practice using a coin in test playing just like we use dice in test playing but if you have been playing for 3 months your muscles start to remember how you flipped to hit heads or tails. Your brain thinks I need to hit heads here (or tails) and your muscles react to the way you have been practicing. Second thing I have to say is you should all feel ashamed of yourselves trying to say that a 14 year old kid is trying to cheat his way to a free trip. He is 14 he is just now starting high school and you all are saying that he won only based off coins flips. If winning was that easy I would have done it like 5 years ago when I started playing. You all are not even taking in that he was testing with great players for 3 months before nats trying to make his DECK better. If your son was affected emotional and is in deep pain from this one 14 year old boy I think your son is taking this game a little too seriously and needs to take a break. IT IS A CHILDERN'S CARD GAME. We play this game for fun if that 14 year old boy toke the game too seriously that's his problem. but don't let one kid make your ruin your nationals. I don't believe he meant to cause this much of an issue and I'm sorry if this post offended anyone but this is my take on the issue.

 

[kwisdumb]

This is an important situation and one that I'll comment on further when I have a bit more time, but...

Anyone saying that the solution is for judges to provide dice is insane. Do you also need judges to provide you with sleeves, playmats and damage counters? If you have a problem with your opponents randomizer, suggest he use something else. If that doesn't work, call a Judge. If that doesn't work, appeal to the head judge. If that doesn't work, evaluate if it's truly a problem and if so, report the event to OP.

Do you guys also need Pokemon to change your diapers in-between rounds?

=\

 

[Kenshin's Garde]

OMG how is this thread still live? :/

 

[cabd]

Having read each and every post in this thread, I'm simply left wondering why on earth this was posted on a public forum? Besides character assassination or "gathering the player base" around your opinion, why is this here?

If anything this belongs in the OP forums or as an email to P!P.

(for the record I think this SHOULD be looked into, just not here publicly)

 

[ShadowCard]

So, a player and/or his parent confessed to attempting to manipulate a random result? What is there to discuss?

---------- Post added 07/15/2011 at 09:36 PM ----------

Having read each and every post in this thread, I'm simply left wondering why on earth this was posted on a public forum? Besides character assassination or "gathering the player base" around your opinion, why is this here?

If anything this belongs in the OP forums or as an email to P!P.

(for the record I think this SHOULD be looked into, just not here publicly)

Is the OP able to post in the OP forums?

If this was simply an e-mail to P!P, brawler--the 2nd place and last opponent of the player in question--would not have been able to add his input and clarify what happened.

 

[The Gorn]

So, a player and/or his parent confessed to attempting to manipulate a random result? What is there to discuss?

Just the penalty as far as I'm concerned.

 

[AgentP]

Starting off, I know both the OP and the father in question. I have a great deal of respect for both of them. Speaking as a PTO and a Judge at Nationals (in Masters), I know the judges hands were tied. No proof of anything intentional happening. If I was called in on this, I would of done the same as the other judges.

But one point here is, if the player was using a coin from before Ruby and Sapphire, (and any other coin) the opponent has the right to not approve it for that game. Most players aren't aware of this, thus it was used.

Regardless, if a player is skilled at flipping favorable outcomes, then they should be fine with any coin. This didn't seem to be the case, from what I am reading.

My opinion, P!P should investigate coin flipping manipulation. However, what's done is done. Our Senior National Champion is a great player, and builds great decks. I see no reason to strip him of the title.

If anyone takes anything away from this, don't let your opponents use any Pre-R&S coins, the rules say you can.

 

[k-psycho]

This is ridiculous. The "Player-in-Question" happens to be an amazing player and person. He also is a 15 year old kid, so chill with the accusations of cheating when all he was doing was playing a game. He doesn't sit at home all day practicing his "flipping technique" or whatever you want to call it; Rather he's just playing a game in which you have to flip a coin every once in a while. Anyone trying to take away from his accomplishment as a player by winning US Nationals is crazy. He earned everything the right way, by playing the game. He also won with some class instead of bashing and complaining for having the coin taken away. I'm also confident that if he had lost the finals, he wouldn't be on here complaining and trying to bash the other finalist's name. Sure we aren't actually saying his name, but we all know who we are talking about, and he has friends and family just like all of you who have to deal with the nonsense being said in here. I'd also like to point out that the other finalist is a great player and is well deserving of his 2nd place accomplishments, but he shouldn't be in here complaining about how the series turned out, but maybe look at his own luck of running incredibly lucky with near-perfect opening hands all of Sunday. Maybe its just that.. Running lucky. Run the numbers opening that strong all tournament and you'll probably see a strong correlation to flipping a few timely heads. Of course no one is going to say anything about that sort of luck, so maybe just stop with the speculation and let the kid be a kid. Don't you have something better to do than try to steal this amazing moment from this young kid's life?

 

[littleryan18]

I was personally playtesting with the seniors national champion before we even left to go to indiannapolis and he just randomly decided to use the coin that he used throughout the tournament. He wasn't just sitting around practicing to flip heads with that coin the whole time, he was playtesting and working as hard as he possibly could to do the best that he could at Nationals! He playtested every matchup with me and his brother and his dad and friends! He always wanted to test matchups and learn how to win and what to do in every matchup...

This coin flipping thing is just an unfair way of taking the spotlight off of a great player who put in hours and hours of work to win the ultimate prize of being crowned our national champion. Sure he hit some heads on reversals! But in the swiss rounds and even in top cuts he was complaining about how he couldn't flip a heads to save his life! If he was "manipulating" the coin, then i guess he was just doing it wrong or something on those games?? Come on people, just recognize this kid as our Senior National Champion and respect the work he put in! Even in game 2 and 3 of the national championship finals (while he was using a dice that he was told to use) he flipped constant tails and couldn't hit a reversal to save his life and made it a close game 2 that he lost, and eventually ended up winning that game 3 in one of the closest games ive seen in a long time!

IT IS COMPLETELY UNFAIR TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THIS KID WHO WORKED SO HARD TO GET WHERE HE DID!! HE DESERVED TO WIN THIS CHAMPIONSHIP!

you can blame cheating coins, manipulated flips, or whatever else you may want to believe... but i know this kid and i know how good he is at this game and im proud to call him our Pokemon TCG 2011 Senior National Champion!

 

[Jahikoi]

There are tournament rules on what is a valid coin flip.
If the flip doesn't meet those rules, it's not a valid flip.
If it does meet those rules, it's a valid flip, no matter how much practice the player says they have done.

7.6.4. Cheating
Players who intentionally commit infractions are looking to gain an unfair advantage over other
players at the event. The Head Judge should carefully consider whether an infraction was
intentional or not before applying this penalty. If the Head Judge feels that an infraction was
unintentional, this penalty should not be applied.
Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Cheating include:
 Drawing extra cards.
 Taking cards from the discard pile and adding them to your hand or deck.
 Offering some form of compensation to an opponent for a concession.
 Altering match results after the conclusion of the match.
 Playing with marked cards.
 Lying to event staff.
 Arbitrarily adjusting the Special Conditions or damage counters put on any Pokémon in
play.
 Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.
 Attempting to manipulate a random result.
 Stacking your deck.
Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Disqualification
Tier 2: Disqualification

'Players who intentionally commit infractions to gain an unfair advantage'
'Attempting to maniplulate a random result'
'Recommended Starting Penalty: Disqualification'


I'm sorry, PokePop, but for what it's worth, I will have to disagree...

Even if the flip follows all the recommended guidelines for a flip, if a player is attempting to manipulate it to their advantage, isn't that still cheating?




In my opinion, in doesn't matter what the coin flips amount to. It's the intentional attempt at manipulation that is the important part.

That said, I don't agree with personal attacks on anyone. I think that if what the OP said was true, it would be terrible for a parent to promote such actions, but at the end of the day it is a great accomplishment to get to the finals of such a large tournament.

 

[baby mario]

This is ridiculous. The "Player-in-Question" happens to be an amazing player and person. He also is a 15 year old kid, so chill with the accusations of cheating when all he was doing was playing a game. He doesn't sit at home all day practicing his "flipping technique" or whatever you want to call it; Rather he's just playing a game in which you have to flip a coin every once in a while. Anyone trying to take away from his accomplishment as a player by winning US Nationals is crazy. He earned everything the right way, by playing the game. He also won with some class instead of bashing and complaining for having the coin taken away. I'm also confident that if he had lost the finals, he wouldn't be on here complaining and trying to bash the other finalist's name. Sure we aren't actually saying his name, but we all know who we are talking about, and he has friends and family just like all of you who have to deal with the nonsense being said in here. I'd also like to point out that the other finalist is a great player and is well deserving of his 2nd place accomplishments, but he shouldn't be in here complaining about how the series turned out, but maybe look at his own luck of running incredibly lucky with near-perfect opening hands all of Sunday. Maybe its just that.. Running lucky. Run the numbers opening that strong all tournament and you'll probably see a strong correlation to flipping a few timely heads. Of course no one is going to say anything about that sort of luck, so maybe just stop with the speculation and let the kid be a kid. Don't you have something better to do than try to steal this amazing moment from this young kid's life?

The reason this whole thing has got out of hand is because the dad was (apparently) telling everyone about how he taught his kid to manipulate the flip.

If he hadn't done that then the worst people would be saying is that the winner had luck going for him in the final (which every winner needs sometime).

Telling people you can manipulate the flip (even if you can't) is OBVIOUSLY going to cause this stuff to happen which is a real shame for the winner.

I blame the parent.