The thing that gets me, is that scholarships are tax deductible (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this). Why on earth would you cut something that in reality costs you little to nothing at the bottom line? It's already been said that it has been a great marketing tool to recruit new players, so I don't feel the need to go any more in depth regarding that issue. To me, it just seems like a disrespect to the truly dedicated players and to see how much they can get away with cutting prizes. POP does do some great things for the game, however they've counterbalanced that with some really questionable moves as well.
No More Scholarships in Regional Level Events?
- Thread starter Poke Trainer J
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Poke Trainer J
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What really surprises me the most is how much most of everyone on PokeBeach is in denial about all of this. Zyflair on PokeBeach said this:
This is what he also had to say about no replacement for scholarships being a possibility for killing the Pokemon TCG which I also agree with Zyflair on:
Zyflair said:
This is what he also had to say about no replacement for scholarships being a possibility for killing the Pokemon TCG which I also agree with Zyflair on:
Zyflair said:
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Scholarships cost $7500/event. How many events are there? Something like $115K? With a 34% corporate tax rate, thats $76K additional profit by dropping them. Doesn't seem like much does it?
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To answer this, it is NO. MTG's card releases are planned YEARS in advance. the Research and Development of MTG has what they call the FUTURE Future League (which is extensive testing within Wizard's of the Caost's internal departments). Magic's card releases are scheduled LONG in advance, and their format rotates once every year.
Market research for MTG does have quite the influence on card banning and tweaks to their tournament structure though. If players whine enough, certain cards may get banned eventually.
This is why MTG can't compare to Pokemon.
MOST MTG tournament prizes are determined by the TO that runs the tournament. Only the Pro Tour and things like Grand Prix have prizes set by Wizards. Not so in Pokemon!!! Pokemon's major tournaments have a prize structure set by P!P.
MTG has some independent tournament thingys run by companies such as Star City Games that offer HUGE cash prizes and other stuff. None of those big prizes come from WotC. I haven't seen that in Pokemon yet (correct me if these things do exist).
I think that as players, we should still play Pokemon as long as we enjoy it. I sure do! After all, we don't have to pay huge entry fees like other TCG's do! (MTG seems to cost like $25-30 for every big tournament!) I LOVE being able to pack up my cards and just GO to a game without having to think if I can afford it first! As a student, I'm looking for something I can do for free on the weekends, and I'm really happy that Pokemon has been there.
Losing the scholarship won't kill me. I'm still gonna play because it's fun!
My Mom alwas told me"you get what you pay for." After reading this thread, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same.
tl;dr: We don't pay entry fees for tournaments, so why do we expect huge prizes for winning?
Phazon Elite
New Member
^ So much yes.
If P!P charges $15 per person for a regionals, assuming roughly 200ish players show up for each division, that's $3000 collected per divison. There's your scholarship money, kids!
With mtg, if they charge $30 per person and 200-300 players show up (rough number estimate), that's $6000-$9000 for the prize pool, and some of that is probably kept by the tournament organizers for the cost of hosting the event, at least.
Honestly, even though I've earned a scholarship through Pokemon before, I've probably spent way more on cards in my lifetime than what I earned that one time. But then there's the fun and community aspect, and suddenly it doesn't seem that bad.
heck, even if you played sports competitively, you'd still have to spend dough on shoes, fees, uniforms, etc.
If P!P charges $15 per person for a regionals, assuming roughly 200ish players show up for each division, that's $3000 collected per divison. There's your scholarship money, kids!
With mtg, if they charge $30 per person and 200-300 players show up (rough number estimate), that's $6000-$9000 for the prize pool, and some of that is probably kept by the tournament organizers for the cost of hosting the event, at least.
Honestly, even though I've earned a scholarship through Pokemon before, I've probably spent way more on cards in my lifetime than what I earned that one time. But then there's the fun and community aspect, and suddenly it doesn't seem that bad.
heck, even if you played sports competitively, you'd still have to spend dough on shoes, fees, uniforms, etc.
I'm pretty sure I covered pretty much all I needed to say in my actual article, but if anyone would like to know more PM me here or hit me up at [email protected]
Also, something that a lot of people are misconstruing about my article: The people at P!P should not be to blame. It's not that they DON'T want us to have nice things, it's that they can't. I'm sure if they had infinite money they would give out $1M per BR, but the fact is they're probably doing the best they can with what they've got. Yes, I think they should've cut basically anything else before scholarships, so perhaps they've made some incorrect decisions, but at the end of the day none of us can really know, and I'd put my good faith in OP and assuming they're doing their best.
Since Marvin brought it up, I've been pushing for Pokemon to start charging the Masters for events (Yes, the Masters, the adults, not the kids, inb4 moderators) for a long time. If the system were something like this...
BRs = Free
BRs should always be free as introductory events.
Cities = $5
We have around 30 Masters per Cities here, so that'd be $150 dollars. That could pay for the CC winner to get a full box, maybe? I think most people would even be fine if Cities started charging and not increasing suppport, as long as that support was going into other events.
States = $10
I think we have around 100 Masters at our States, so that'd be $1k, which should be more than enough to pay for trophies to come back?
Regionals = $10
Again, $1k combined with the leftover money from Cities and States should at least do a great deal towards helping bring scholarships back, yes?
Nationals = $20
Not sure how many Masters were at Nats last year, but I'm assuming this would be enough to bring back trophies, and maybe even increase trips/scholarships?
I just feel like it's more than fair to say "While you're a child and in your early teenager years you get to play tournaments for free and enjoy the benefits of those who do pay for it, and then once you get to the age where you can get a job, you start paying for the tournaments." Obviously I would want all of these prizes to go to every division, but maybe Masters could even get a little bit more stuff for having to be the only ones to pay? I dunno.
I also feel like there are so many cheap/free prize support options Pokemon could be exploring. Why not give State champions 1,000 PTCGO credits and a special State/Regional/National champion title on their PTCGO avatar, or something? Why not print alternate art Collectors for the top 32 at Regionals? Why not have a top 32 and 1st place playmat at States/Regionals/Nationals? Why not give out a "VIP pass" to States/Regionals winners that lets you have a priority line for registration, a static seat, and stuff like that? Some of this costs money yes, but the VIP pass and PTCGO stuff are completely intangible and cost almost nothing. I don't get it.
Sorry, I'm tired and rambling. No scholarships is bad, I stand by everything I said in my article.
Also, something that a lot of people are misconstruing about my article: The people at P!P should not be to blame. It's not that they DON'T want us to have nice things, it's that they can't. I'm sure if they had infinite money they would give out $1M per BR, but the fact is they're probably doing the best they can with what they've got. Yes, I think they should've cut basically anything else before scholarships, so perhaps they've made some incorrect decisions, but at the end of the day none of us can really know, and I'd put my good faith in OP and assuming they're doing their best.
Since Marvin brought it up, I've been pushing for Pokemon to start charging the Masters for events (Yes, the Masters, the adults, not the kids, inb4 moderators) for a long time. If the system were something like this...
BRs = Free
BRs should always be free as introductory events.
Cities = $5
We have around 30 Masters per Cities here, so that'd be $150 dollars. That could pay for the CC winner to get a full box, maybe? I think most people would even be fine if Cities started charging and not increasing suppport, as long as that support was going into other events.
States = $10
I think we have around 100 Masters at our States, so that'd be $1k, which should be more than enough to pay for trophies to come back?
Regionals = $10
Again, $1k combined with the leftover money from Cities and States should at least do a great deal towards helping bring scholarships back, yes?
Nationals = $20
Not sure how many Masters were at Nats last year, but I'm assuming this would be enough to bring back trophies, and maybe even increase trips/scholarships?
I just feel like it's more than fair to say "While you're a child and in your early teenager years you get to play tournaments for free and enjoy the benefits of those who do pay for it, and then once you get to the age where you can get a job, you start paying for the tournaments." Obviously I would want all of these prizes to go to every division, but maybe Masters could even get a little bit more stuff for having to be the only ones to pay? I dunno.
I also feel like there are so many cheap/free prize support options Pokemon could be exploring. Why not give State champions 1,000 PTCGO credits and a special State/Regional/National champion title on their PTCGO avatar, or something? Why not print alternate art Collectors for the top 32 at Regionals? Why not have a top 32 and 1st place playmat at States/Regionals/Nationals? Why not give out a "VIP pass" to States/Regionals winners that lets you have a priority line for registration, a static seat, and stuff like that? Some of this costs money yes, but the VIP pass and PTCGO stuff are completely intangible and cost almost nothing. I don't get it.
Sorry, I'm tired and rambling. No scholarships is bad, I stand by everything I said in my article.
Phazon Elite
New Member
Im in general agreement with Kenny's post save a couple of minor quibbles.
1. Regarding a CC entry fee, I can imagine that killing attendance pretty quickly. Taking my Oregon for example, we usually have two CCs a weekend and around 10-12 (It was like this back when I was playing really heavy last season, please correct me if I'm wrong) total CCs for the one or two month time span they encompass. With a $5 fee attached, that comes to $10 a weekend, and $50-$60 in two months just to run the gamut all arcoss the state, not even including any travel expenses one might have. For most masters, who play six rounds and go 3-3 or worse, it seems like a bit much to ask. I for one would definitely be on a semi-hiatus at that point, only attending events in or very close to my city of residence.
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I agree with your fundamental logic, but I would think the age divisions would have to be adjusted for this to work as smoothly as you'd like. It's hard for minors in many states to get jobs, especially at the age of 15. For them, it still comes down to the 'rents shelling out another small wad of cash, which kinda puts 15-16 in the same boat as the 14-.
1. Regarding a CC entry fee, I can imagine that killing attendance pretty quickly. Taking my Oregon for example, we usually have two CCs a weekend and around 10-12 (It was like this back when I was playing really heavy last season, please correct me if I'm wrong) total CCs for the one or two month time span they encompass. With a $5 fee attached, that comes to $10 a weekend, and $50-$60 in two months just to run the gamut all arcoss the state, not even including any travel expenses one might have. For most masters, who play six rounds and go 3-3 or worse, it seems like a bit much to ask. I for one would definitely be on a semi-hiatus at that point, only attending events in or very close to my city of residence.
2: See Below:
I agree with your fundamental logic, but I would think the age divisions would have to be adjusted for this to work as smoothly as you'd like. It's hard for minors in many states to get jobs, especially at the age of 15. For them, it still comes down to the 'rents shelling out another small wad of cash, which kinda puts 15-16 in the same boat as the 14-.
First of all, thanks for clarifying the situation with Magic, I really appreciate it. On to what I quoted you on above, that's exactly the point I was trying to make with my previous post. Players like you make up a large portion of the Pokemon TCG scene -- it doesn't matter how much gets cut, you'll still play because you're fond of the game and because it's fun. Most younger players also feel this way; they just want to have fun. I'm not saying this because I'm upset at those players. It's just that in terms of business, it makes sense for whoever funds P!P to cut prize support while restructuring tournaments to bring in more players, especially if it's not going to affect anyone's decision to play anyway.
I think this is a great idea and I wholeheartedly support it. As I said before, players are going to continue playing at almost whatever the cost. If you lose a few here or there because those players don't want to fork out 10 bucks for a States (though they'll glady pay 10 times as much for cards, gas, hotel, etc.), that's not a big deal. You're still growing the game, and you're supporting the measure of skill that even the Tournament Guidelines boast about. I do think that CC's should be free, though as you mentioned they should offer special cards to make up for the lack of prizes. They're already doing this with BR's and it's working out pretty well! I'm happy to know that my Victory Cups can actually be sold for something.
Which is why I think a restructuring in the age divisions is also warranted. I think Masters should begin at a later age. Just my opinion though.
Ignatious
New Member
I thought Scholarships were removed from all age devisions?
ApachePrime
New Member
I'd also like to point out that WoW tournaments cost money. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. DMF Orlando, the equivalent of a Regional championship, was $30 to get into the main event, and every side event had a $5-$30 cost. The prizes were insane, but so was the price of entry.
Totally agree with the need the charge money for tournaments. If people can plunk down $4 for a random 10 card booster or even $10 for a bad theme deck, they can afford to pay an entry fee for a Pokemon tournament. Pokemon is not a poor man's game.
It isn't good that Pokemon is on a fixed budget. With inflation that actually means they're getting less money each year.
It isn't good that Pokemon is on a fixed budget. With inflation that actually means they're getting less money each year.
desert eagle
New Member
I'm all for the entry fee contributing to rewards. Honestly, if you aren't willing to pay $20-30 to enter a regionals or Nationals, then you really shouldn't be playing this game.
It's unfair to charge Juniors and Seniors so yes, this fee would be just for Masters, but there is no excuse someone can pay for multiple Yanmegas and Magnezones and Catchers and not be willing to pay $20 to support better prizes, and P!P should seriously consider this. It would really help to legitimize the competitive scene.
It's unfair to charge Juniors and Seniors so yes, this fee would be just for Masters, but there is no excuse someone can pay for multiple Yanmegas and Magnezones and Catchers and not be willing to pay $20 to support better prizes, and P!P should seriously consider this. It would really help to legitimize the competitive scene.
Gowk
New Member
I agree, but, just for clarification, you are paying for a lot.
1. The cards
2. Getting to the competitions
3. The time spent at the competition and preparing for the event
I am sure there are other things.
Pokemon is not free, but many would argue that it is not too expensive [which remains subjective and debatable].
Phazon Elite
New Member
I agree, an entry fee for the higher-level tournaments would be a sound idea . . . as long as the principles Nance and I agree on are still in play (not charging kiddos, age-group restructure).
I mean going off your estimates alone, assuming 400-500 players in masters at nats, that's anywhere from $8000-$15,000 for prize support! Split up among the three divisions, that's roughly $2700-$5000 for each age group! And those figures are from only charging masters the entry fee.
Just throwing this out there:
What if Pokemon started a different set of tournaments that weren't linked to pro points/ELO rating at all, just for cash prizes? Something equivalent to Magic's Grand Prix. You would pay $25 - $30 to enter, and be rewarded with cash prizes, electronics, etc. Would this work?
Are there any outside companies, like StarCityGames.com has done for MTG, that would pursue this sort of thing for Pokemon? Is it even an option?
What if Pokemon started a different set of tournaments that weren't linked to pro points/ELO rating at all, just for cash prizes? Something equivalent to Magic's Grand Prix. You would pay $25 - $30 to enter, and be rewarded with cash prizes, electronics, etc. Would this work?
Are there any outside companies, like StarCityGames.com has done for MTG, that would pursue this sort of thing for Pokemon? Is it even an option?
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
No, it's not good, but with the economy like it is worldwide, a lot of businesses are actually having to cut their budgets and make people redundant. Pokemon (and the companies that own it) aren't immune to all that, so I guess I'm just slightly relieved that the budget is frozen and not slashed.
It's difficult to have an opinion on paying for tournaments as Europeans have always had that anyway. I think Pokemon has a different 'vision' for its game than other TCGs, and really doesn't want to go down the 'big entrance fee, huge prizes' route. That probably has more to do with them not charging for tournaments than whether or not they think players are willing to pay.
ShadowCard
Active Member
And those of us who don't pay for multiple Yanmegas, Magnezones, and Catchers but instead show up with Ambipoms, Weaviles, and Switch? :frown:
Consider that the money made for an entry fee would not likely go to OP but instead to the TO, so the TO would determine the "additional" prize support. Isn't that how it works in Europe? So, on the same day, two regionals could have very different "additional" prizes, depending on the money the TO thinks will come in by the estimated number of players and how much of that money the TO would like to put into additional prizes. One event could get booster boxes while the other event gets Kindles.
CMsvW
New Member
As someone who plays Pokemon and MTG, I can certainly say that Pokemon has a "kiddy" stigma to it that pushes away a lot of new players. I hang around mostly Magic players (Since the card shop I go to caters to them) and I've actually gotten a few of them into Pokemon. Still, lots of them just don't take the game seriously and prize support is one of the reasons.
Pokemon doesn't need a $25 entrance fee like a lot of Magic tournaments require, BUT $5-10 (for Masters) would be healthy for the game.
Pokemon doesn't need a $25 entrance fee like a lot of Magic tournaments require, BUT $5-10 (for Masters) would be healthy for the game.
nnaann
New Member
Aside from possibly some events like the Prague Cup or European Challenge Cup which are separate from the usual event schedule, we don't usually get extra prizes for the attendance fee we pay, except sometimes when TOs give every participating player a Booster Pack regardless of where they placed.
Talking from experience as someone who does pay an Entry Fee to tournaments, I think it would be a big mistake to start charging at North America events, and I'd like to see it scrapped for us International players although that probably won't happen. Pokemon is just as popular here in Europe than it is in North America, yet we get a lot lower attendances, and have smaller player bases with entry fees being the only major difference in how our tournaments are run.
The guys from P!P have stated that their budget hasn't increased or decreased from the previous year, so it's obvious that the money from the scholarships is being spent in another department. I'd guess that additional events and the PTCGO online are where the extra investment is being directed, and it's pretty obvious that those will both will benefit Pokemon Organised Play then the removal of scholarships which most people didn't have a chance of winning anyway.
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