ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
Bring back the old rules and some of the Plasma stage 2 Pokémon (Metagross, Magnezone, maybe Crobat) will be actually playable. =/
Plasma Storm cards
- Thread starter battleboy
- Start date
Kayle
Active Member
Aside from Eelektrik making a counter to your point, I don't understand how this is a problem at all. When were lower-stage Pokemon ever meant to accomplish something in a competitive field of play? The video games introduced Eviolite to make some pre-evolutions more interesting, but that doesn't change the overwhelming trend and preference towards fully evolved Pokemon there, either. This just really seems like an out-of-left-field concern to me.
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LibertyFigter
New Member
I'm with Kayle here. This confuses me. That principle, even though it isn't quite an accurate description of the card game, is pretty much the point of the Pokemon franchise.
Aside from that, "lower stages" have actually gotten quite a bit of attention in terms of utility in the Pokemon TCG. Between many of them having damage preventing attacks or abilities (Deino, Squirtle), the entire baby mechanic making a "lower stage" entirely essential to set up for a while in a format just a year or so old, two iterations of Eevee: one with Call for Family and the new Plasma Eevee grabbing your Evolutions, Ascension Zorua, Charmander grabbing energy from the discard, other lower stages with Call for Family attacks, Charmeleon with Rage/Celebi EX....
I just don't see that problem as much as you do.
Otaku
Active Member
Kayle and LibertyFigter remind me how hard it is to explain something... especially when the people asking for clarification have already pursued their own line of reasoning, throwing up their assumptions as my arguments. This is a valid approach and I often do it myself when I don't understand something I put forth my own understanding to seek clarification... but it can be risky. In this case, I will resist arguing points I never tried to make. XD
Lower Stage Pokémon have indeed always been meant to Evolve, and I am not arguing that this is not why they exist in the game... I am arguing that they do not generate enough advantage to keep Evolutions on even footing with Basic Pokémon. If someone wishes for Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokémon to hang with Basic Pokémon, I am putting forth that this is the best method.
Other things have been tried, and they end up being a Band-Aid for a problem inherent to the game's design. By design, Basic Pokémon save you slots in deck and are faster to the field. Speeding Evolutions up usually creates as many problems (if not more) as it solves.
When it becomes expected that an Evolving Basic Pokémon and (if part of the line) an Evolving Stage 1 form really contribute to set-up (or disrupting the opponent's set up or some other appropriate use), then we can offset the inherent advantage of being a Basic Pokémon.
I am uncertain if Eelektrik can be held up as a positive example, since Eelektross does not see much play; it isn't supporting its Evolved form anymore than it supports most other Pokémon that utilize Lightning Energy.
Lower Stage Pokémon have indeed always been meant to Evolve, and I am not arguing that this is not why they exist in the game... I am arguing that they do not generate enough advantage to keep Evolutions on even footing with Basic Pokémon. If someone wishes for Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokémon to hang with Basic Pokémon, I am putting forth that this is the best method.
Other things have been tried, and they end up being a Band-Aid for a problem inherent to the game's design. By design, Basic Pokémon save you slots in deck and are faster to the field. Speeding Evolutions up usually creates as many problems (if not more) as it solves.
When it becomes expected that an Evolving Basic Pokémon and (if part of the line) an Evolving Stage 1 form really contribute to set-up (or disrupting the opponent's set up or some other appropriate use), then we can offset the inherent advantage of being a Basic Pokémon.
I am uncertain if Eelektrik can be held up as a positive example, since Eelektross does not see much play; it isn't supporting its Evolved form anymore than it supports most other Pokémon that utilize Lightning Energy.
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vaporeon
Moderator
The problem is that basic Pokemon that need to evolve are still very bad, require a lot of deck space and use a lot of resources while decks that use only basic Pokemon do not. Look at it this way using a Charizard deck.
4-3-3 Charizard
3-1-2 Emboar
2 Celebi EX
4 Rare Candy
Trainers
Rest Energy
just because you want to use Charizard (until till new Chandy comes out) you'll need Emboar to get energy into play. Charizard uses at least 12 more deck spaces just to support itself. Thats the problem with evolution decks. Most use 10+ cards trying to get their engine going. They also require near perfect hands to not get over run in this format. Anything less then a turn 2 Stage 2 to is bad.
What about the basic decks. They don't require as many resources to get going and don't use as many deck deck spaces. Hammer time uses 7 to 8 Pokemon and other basic decks use 8-10 Pokemon
Hammer time
3-4 Sableye
3-4 Darkrai
16 more trainers then charizard/most stage 2 decks can run
Trainers
Rest Energy
Other Basic decks using at least 9 basic Pokemon
9 Common Pokemon here
13 more trainers then charizard/most stage 2 decks can run
Trainers
Rest Energy
You can't just say so and so is good because it dont take bench damage or a later form can do more damage with another Pokemon. The problem is decks using nothing but basic Pokemon can run a lot more resources then decks that play stage 2 Pokemon. What needs to happen is they need to put stage 2 pokemon back on a even playing field.
This is mainly the reason the game is so unbalanced and its due to card design and that bad card design is affecting deck building which affects a lot of other factors of play.
ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
Lower stages as they should be:
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=31963
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=45563
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=45566
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=42319
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=33263
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=45428
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=1589
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=53107
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=33252
Lower stages as they should NOT be:
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=51849
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=52493
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=50651
btw Eelektrik doesn't count because it's the sole purpose of playing the line and therefor doesn't act as "lower stage".
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=31963
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=45563
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=45566
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=42319
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=33263
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=45428
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=1589
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=53107
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=33252
Lower stages as they should NOT be:
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=51849
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=52493
http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=50651
btw Eelektrik doesn't count because it's the sole purpose of playing the line and therefor doesn't act as "lower stage".
Otaku
Active Member
I would like to bring up the Mysterious Treasures Feraligatr line.
The end goal is of course Feraligatr (Mysterious Treasures 8/123) itself.
Croconaw (Mysterious Treasures 44/123) is good example of how to do it. Its Poké-Power has value akin to an Item... an Item that would be useful to the Feraligatr it Evolves into. The attack is also solid, and the rest of the card was adequate for the time. I ran Feraligatr decks using this line, and I did reasonably well and found I preferred to only use Rare Candy (and skip Croconaw) when I felt I absolutely had to.
Totodile (Mysterious Treasures 106/123) is not a brilliant example, but it still had enough HP at the time to make a first turn KO less likely, and since it could attack for no Energy you could open with it and sacrifice it to score some early damage while you built a second (that would likely Evolve before it had to be promoted) on the Bench. If you did have an energy to spare, you could hit twice as hard once you were damaged.
The end goal is of course Feraligatr (Mysterious Treasures 8/123) itself.
Croconaw (Mysterious Treasures 44/123) is good example of how to do it. Its Poké-Power has value akin to an Item... an Item that would be useful to the Feraligatr it Evolves into. The attack is also solid, and the rest of the card was adequate for the time. I ran Feraligatr decks using this line, and I did reasonably well and found I preferred to only use Rare Candy (and skip Croconaw) when I felt I absolutely had to.
Totodile (Mysterious Treasures 106/123) is not a brilliant example, but it still had enough HP at the time to make a first turn KO less likely, and since it could attack for no Energy you could open with it and sacrifice it to score some early damage while you built a second (that would likely Evolve before it had to be promoted) on the Bench. If you did have an energy to spare, you could hit twice as hard once you were damaged.
Kayle
Active Member
Okay, yeah. Make sure to be a little clearer on your point. I especially appreciate SC's examples because those are mostly all from a format I can remember! Man those Basics were so good.
To be fair though, Squirtle has pretty much one of the best abilities you could ever ask for...
To be fair though, Squirtle has pretty much one of the best abilities you could ever ask for...
Otaku
Active Member
Well, I have explained it more than once; I am kind of a broken record at repeating that point. :lol:
...what if they are mostly examples from formats I don't remember?
No, it isn't. It is useful for this format, but it is far from the best Ability I've seen, let alone that I could ask for.
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
Chandelure is a decent example from more recent history.
Promo Litwick - Call for Family. Great even with Collector in the format because the deck needed multiple Basics in play early as it was usually played with Vileplume and Dodrio
Lampent NVI - Luring Light gave Catcher-style disruption that could drag out a high retreat non-attacker to help out Chandelure's spread strategy. Especially good as Vileplume meant no Switch for the opponent (and no Catcher for you).
Promo Litwick - Call for Family. Great even with Collector in the format because the deck needed multiple Basics in play early as it was usually played with Vileplume and Dodrio
Lampent NVI - Luring Light gave Catcher-style disruption that could drag out a high retreat non-attacker to help out Chandelure's spread strategy. Especially good as Vileplume meant no Switch for the opponent (and no Catcher for you).
LibertyFigter
New Member
This is the statement I was responding to, and to this statement I feel as if my response is warranted, and feel that most of the responses after mine actually agree with my argument: that we do, in fact, have basics/stage 1s of Evolution lines that are supposedly helpful to set up.
Now, I never said, and probably should have stated outright, that we had good basics and stage 1s, currently, that assist in set up. I feel like most of the responses were arguing against that point, that I never made.
Finally, I think we may be talking past each other because of one crucial point: I think assisting in evolution is assisting set-up. To "set-up" a Darkrai/Hydreigon deck is to, at least partially, evolve to Hydreigon. So when we are discussing lower stages that "just exist to Evolve" instead of "contributing to set-up," I feel like we are speaking of something that doesn't quite make sense. If they contribute to evolution, don't they help set up?
Otaku
Active Member
Please re-read what I said. Did I say "We have no lower Stages that do anything other than Evolve?" No I did not. While my wording may not have been perfect, I expressed my belief that the game suffers largely because of lower Stages that don't adequately contribute to set-up to compensate for the inherent advantages of Basic Pokémon. I was not as detailed as I normally was, and I recognize that this could contribute to confusion, though now it has been addressed more than once.
Giving an example of a lower Stage that contributes to set-up does not nullify that point, since I was not stating that such cards do not exist. I had hoped I wouldn't have to waste time specifying things like "significantly helps with set-up" either, since I do struggle to remain concise and have been advised I should give more heed to the context of statements.
Again, such cards existing does not make them standard, nor does it mean they assist enough to overcome the speed and card advantage enjoyed by Basic Pokémon that do not Evolve (assuming the final Stages being compared are otherwise similar). Given the post I myself was responding to was
As such, the general thrust of the discussion since would be improving the playability of Stage 2 Pokémon, specifically Plasma Pokémon. My own statement broadened the scope.
We aren't talking past each other, in that I am pretty sure most of us realize that assisting in Evolution is aiding set-up. The only one to imply it wasn't so far would be you, LibertyFigter.
Note that if we use such a broad definition for "contribute" so that a card using the basic mechanics of the game to Evolve is "contributing" to the deck, do all cards contribute to the deck so long as a player runs Ultra Ball and at least two Pokémon? Any card that could be discarded would "contribute" to Ultra Ball being used to search.
No, realistically it is hard to escape that we are discussing significant contributions, such as enough to warrant playing a Stage 1 form over Rare Candy, and to function as more than a "placeholder" Pokémon. Even those that do contribute in a substantive way need to contribute enough to offset the inherent advantages Basic Pokémon enjoy.
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LibertyFigter
New Member
True, you didn't. You simply said that over "most of the game's life-span" we had a consistent problem with having lower stages that do not assist in set-up.
The bolded part is the part that was left out of the original post. Once that is added in, I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.
That is a distinction you didn't really have to make, as many lower evolutions do significantly help set up. I think we were both talking about significant advantages, so we can move on from this. However, significant is very different than significant enough to "compensate for the inherent advantages of Basic Pokemon."
If your initial argument was that Plasma doesn't overcome (in favor of evolutions) the crazy advantage Big Basics have in this format? Of course it doesn't. I wouldn't have posted here if that is what I saw as your initial point, as I agree completely.
When did I imply that assisting in evolution isn't assisting in set-up?
Once again, this is a significant change from your first post, and once again, if this is your argument, I agree.
Otaku
Active Member
LibertyFigter: As has no been clarified over PM, I do believe some of what I have said was conveyed in the original post, given what I myself was responding to. That being said, you have explained what confused you and at this point I believe further dissecting each others' posts will not make the point(s) in question any clearer.
There are some interesting tidbits I would like to discuss, but I've probably derailed this thread enough.
Getting back on topic, I am interested in finding out if the Eeveelutions work well with Vileplume or not and frankly just about every other card that has been mentioned in this thread. XD
There are some interesting tidbits I would like to discuss, but I've probably derailed this thread enough.
Getting back on topic, I am interested in finding out if the Eeveelutions work well with Vileplume or not and frankly just about every other card that has been mentioned in this thread. XD
LibertyFigter
New Member
Will do. I love Vileplume (this card specifically, not the Pokemon), and I sincerely hope that it becomes playable. Right now it's not, and that makes me a sad panda. Anything apart from the Eeveelutions that could contribute to Vileplume's success in the plasma sets? I can't think of too much, apart from a slightly better Supporter selection. But I doubt the format, what with Colress Machine and Plasma Energy, will slow down enough to make it possible. : (.
Out of the Eeveelutions, I think Leafeon benefits most from Vileplume. Because of the increasing popularity of Keldeo EX (especially with Japan's tournament results), Leafeon could function well in Vileplume, probably better than Shaymin EX or Virizon. Shaymin and both Virizons require 2+ energy, while Leafeon just needs one. In a deck with little energy movement/acceleration, one less energy makes the difference. Plus, Leafeon has more of a surprise factor. An energy-less Eevee could quickly knockout a Keldeo on the spot. With Vileplume out, Leafeon always knockouts an eviolited Keldeo with 3+ energies, and even without Vileplume, Leafeon can KO Keldeo with 5+ energies, which is about average mid to late game.