Minus 2-2 claydol could not work, but the others, maybe. I think that playing so many supporters wouldn't be such a good idea because of telepass.
Plox- The Next Generation
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Minus 2-2 claydol could not work, but the others, maybe. I think that playing so many supporters wouldn't be such a good idea because of telepass.
JBowroxmysox
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This kid's got it.
butlerforhire
New Member
I disagree with the notion of dropping Call energy. For one, you don't always have to use it, although the option to utilize it to bail out of a potential donk or get your Ralts and Baltoy into play for Spiritomb to evolve is very important. Also, turn 2 Psychic Lock is not necessary for the deck to win. It is amazing when it does happen, but turn 3 isn't horrible-- after all, that's about the rate that GG has been attacking at ever since DRE left the format, and it has survived with Weavile and Upper. The most important thing about DCE is how it lets you build back-up Gardevoir/Gallade a turn quicker than usual, so you don't have that dreaded gap between Psychic Locks. THAT is what lets games slip away. Chaining Psychic Locks together is what wins.
Also, Spiritomb is a great card pre-HGSS and it should only get better with that set out, due mainly to Pokemon Communicator. If people start trying to rely on it, they're going to suffer when you open with Keystone Seal. Running it yourself is silly with Spiritomb because you can't use it when you need it most, and Telepass will let you use their Bebe's/Elm once you have a Gardevoir in play to build back-up. Just stick to Bebe's and maybe a few Professor Elm's Training Method (4/2 ratio) so you have 7 total ways to get your evolutions out (including Luxury Ball, factoring Spiritomb out for a moment).
You do need to up your Gardevoir/Gallade line; Magnechu laid the numbers out nicely. You also need to run 4 DCE. It's essential. The Psychic should be upped a bit as well. With a mere 3 in the deck and no recovery, you're going to be in trouble after a few KOs, or if some of that energy is prized. DCE won't help you when you don't have the basic psychic, unlike DRE did. I would say 6 is a good number.
Although you can Telepass Aaron's and Palmer's to recover lost resources, don't rely on your opponent to play either of those cards at your convenience. Run a Palmer's of your own. Get some Cynthia's in there too, and possibly a Lucian's, but with DCE I don't know how useful it'd be anymore. Swap the Looker's for Wager-- it does both of the things Looker's does, simultaneously (hand refresh for you, hand disruption aka option disruption for them). I'd go 2 Moonlight; the lone BTS isn't needed. Add a couple of Expert Belt for sure-- 80 damage x 2 = OHKO on virtually everything in the format, whereas 60 x 2 hardly KOs anything anymore.
Drop the Drawer+ and Pokedex-- both of those cards are not only bad in most decks, but especially so here when you can't even play them under your or another Spiritomb, or Deafen, and when you have access to Telepass to get set up faster than most decks anyway since you get 2x the Supporter action per turn.
I'd run Nidoqueen over Dusknoir, since it would give you the ability to use Teleportation and Moonlight to get wounded Gardevoir/Gallade back to the bench without wasting any energy so that they can heal and come back out later; meanwhile, another G or G would be active continuing to attack. It's important to deny as many KOs as possible here in order to prolong the lock as long as you can, especially when you would usually be losing 2 prizes on a single KO (thanks to the double-edged Belt). You can also attack with Nidoqueen to the fullest extent if you have to abandon GG for some reason, or just really need to do 100 damage to win a game or take a critical prize (fringe scenario, but it might arise).
You might tech in a Ditto for anti-Gengar, because any SF-heavy variant is going to give you trouble. Weavile and Uxie and Unown G all let GG beat Gengar before, but now you're just going to suffer from Shadow Room, especially with only 1 Unown G, and you're also going to have to deal with Feinting Spell, which you never want to do with an Expert Belted stage 2 Pokemon with 3 energy on it.
Also, Spiritomb is a great card pre-HGSS and it should only get better with that set out, due mainly to Pokemon Communicator. If people start trying to rely on it, they're going to suffer when you open with Keystone Seal. Running it yourself is silly with Spiritomb because you can't use it when you need it most, and Telepass will let you use their Bebe's/Elm once you have a Gardevoir in play to build back-up. Just stick to Bebe's and maybe a few Professor Elm's Training Method (4/2 ratio) so you have 7 total ways to get your evolutions out (including Luxury Ball, factoring Spiritomb out for a moment).
You do need to up your Gardevoir/Gallade line; Magnechu laid the numbers out nicely. You also need to run 4 DCE. It's essential. The Psychic should be upped a bit as well. With a mere 3 in the deck and no recovery, you're going to be in trouble after a few KOs, or if some of that energy is prized. DCE won't help you when you don't have the basic psychic, unlike DRE did. I would say 6 is a good number.
Although you can Telepass Aaron's and Palmer's to recover lost resources, don't rely on your opponent to play either of those cards at your convenience. Run a Palmer's of your own. Get some Cynthia's in there too, and possibly a Lucian's, but with DCE I don't know how useful it'd be anymore. Swap the Looker's for Wager-- it does both of the things Looker's does, simultaneously (hand refresh for you, hand disruption aka option disruption for them). I'd go 2 Moonlight; the lone BTS isn't needed. Add a couple of Expert Belt for sure-- 80 damage x 2 = OHKO on virtually everything in the format, whereas 60 x 2 hardly KOs anything anymore.
Drop the Drawer+ and Pokedex-- both of those cards are not only bad in most decks, but especially so here when you can't even play them under your or another Spiritomb, or Deafen, and when you have access to Telepass to get set up faster than most decks anyway since you get 2x the Supporter action per turn.
I'd run Nidoqueen over Dusknoir, since it would give you the ability to use Teleportation and Moonlight to get wounded Gardevoir/Gallade back to the bench without wasting any energy so that they can heal and come back out later; meanwhile, another G or G would be active continuing to attack. It's important to deny as many KOs as possible here in order to prolong the lock as long as you can, especially when you would usually be losing 2 prizes on a single KO (thanks to the double-edged Belt). You can also attack with Nidoqueen to the fullest extent if you have to abandon GG for some reason, or just really need to do 100 damage to win a game or take a critical prize (fringe scenario, but it might arise).
You might tech in a Ditto for anti-Gengar, because any SF-heavy variant is going to give you trouble. Weavile and Uxie and Unown G all let GG beat Gengar before, but now you're just going to suffer from Shadow Room, especially with only 1 Unown G, and you're also going to have to deal with Feinting Spell, which you never want to do with an Expert Belted stage 2 Pokemon with 3 energy on it.
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L00p_H01eS
New Member
personally, i would drop the dusknoir line (i dont find it useful if your running only 1 warp)for a 1-1 luxray line. it helps so much.
there is plenty of lux running around. i would go with 2 warps
i would drop a candy for broken time space since ur running a 3-2-2(1)-1 line.
drop a moonlight for warp. much better.
pokedex handy? idk, personally i dont like using those. i wouldl drop them for, luxball, premierball, and nm
drawers, arent needed because you have 4 bebes and 4 roseannes and also highly likely your opponents will be running the sameline. so its easy to telepass,
i would drop drawers for SSU. running a luxray/gardy line with 4 SSU helps so much. esp. with the while expert belt thing.
calls definitely help you with bad starts however, it slows the deck down. i think it moves away from t2 powerlock.
4 DCE is a must in my opinion. 1 warp energy is not bad idea but ur running 2 warps, 4 ssu and gardy X so i dont think its needed. (if you follow what i say that is)
-duskull
-dusknoir
-rare candy
-moonlight
-3 pokedex
-4 pokedrawers
-4 call energy
-warp energy
+1 luxray gl
+1 luxray gl X
+1 bts
+1 warppoint
+1 luxball
+1 pmier ball
+1 nm (you dont want mirrors using palmers. not pretty)
+4 SSU
+1 DCE
+2 psychic
+2 fighting
this is personally what i would run. the luxray helps trmemdously, when you need to brightlook, retreat, bring up gardy or gallade, attach Expert belt and swing away
you dont have to listen to me just throwing my opinion out there.
there is plenty of lux running around. i would go with 2 warps
i would drop a candy for broken time space since ur running a 3-2-2(1)-1 line.
drop a moonlight for warp. much better.
pokedex handy? idk, personally i dont like using those. i wouldl drop them for, luxball, premierball, and nm
drawers, arent needed because you have 4 bebes and 4 roseannes and also highly likely your opponents will be running the sameline. so its easy to telepass,
i would drop drawers for SSU. running a luxray/gardy line with 4 SSU helps so much. esp. with the while expert belt thing.
calls definitely help you with bad starts however, it slows the deck down. i think it moves away from t2 powerlock.
4 DCE is a must in my opinion. 1 warp energy is not bad idea but ur running 2 warps, 4 ssu and gardy X so i dont think its needed. (if you follow what i say that is)
-duskull
-dusknoir
-rare candy
-moonlight
-3 pokedex
-4 pokedrawers
-4 call energy
-warp energy
+1 luxray gl
+1 luxray gl X
+1 bts
+1 warppoint
+1 luxball
+1 pmier ball
+1 nm (you dont want mirrors using palmers. not pretty)
+4 SSU
+1 DCE
+2 psychic
+2 fighting
this is personally what i would run. the luxray helps trmemdously, when you need to brightlook, retreat, bring up gardy or gallade, attach Expert belt and swing away
you dont have to listen to me just throwing my opinion out there.
I don't really think ditto would be necessary, especially for a gengar tech. If I were to drop the dex and or drawers what would you recomened putting in
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
Loop hole- I really can't agree with the luxray sug. It would take up to much space, and wouldn't help as much as dusknoir. Warp energy is actually pretty important because of chatter lock which could really loose you games.
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butlerforhire
New Member
I gave you a whole list of cards to put in, mostly echoing the rest of the people in here.
Right. So the main suggestions so far have been:
A thicker GG line, wagers, 4 DCE and 5+psy. NO calls ( which I don't really agree with)
butlerforhire
New Member
I didn't say drop the Calls-- I defended keeping them. I also recommended Cynthia's, higher Moonlight count, Queen over Dusknoir....
Cynthias-yes. moonlight-yes. CAlls...
Getting a t2 plock isn't 100% necesary. It seems like whenever I get an unown G/Azelf start, there's always a call to make it playable. Calls=consistancy, consistancy= =)
butlerforhire
New Member
Uh, why do you keep thinking I am telling you to remove the Calls? I said exactly what you just did earlier in my OP about the non-necessity of turn 2 Psychic Lock/the absolute necessity of consistency/insurance. KEEP THE CALLS has been my point from the beginning.
prodigal_fanboy
New Member
If you're going to keep doing this, you might as well come out and ask for one of us to hand you a list.
So basically, remove your bad cards, and add in your good cards as per those suggestions. No one is going to hand you a straight up list because it's done so well in the past, it has potential to do well again. You won't see good lists floating around here until at least post-States, if the deck does well.
Truth In Reporting: I excised unnecessary phrases from butler's post that didn't focus on the suggested swap itself.
So basically, remove your bad cards, and add in your good cards as per those suggestions. No one is going to hand you a straight up list because it's done so well in the past, it has potential to do well again. You won't see good lists floating around here until at least post-States, if the deck does well.
Truth In Reporting: I excised unnecessary phrases from butler's post that didn't focus on the suggested swap itself.
Plox Line:
4 Ralts PL
2 Kirlia SW
3 Gardevoire SW
1 Gallade (2 if not playing Azelf)
1 Gardevoire Lv. X
Starters:
4 of your preferred starters (I like Jirachi or Spiritomb)
Support:
2-2 Claydol
1 Azelf
Total Pokemon: 20
14-16 Energy (at least 6 that provide
sychic
24-26 Trainers/tools/etc.
4 Ralts PL
2 Kirlia SW
3 Gardevoire SW
1 Gallade (2 if not playing Azelf)
1 Gardevoire Lv. X
Starters:
4 of your preferred starters (I like Jirachi or Spiritomb)
Support:
2-2 Claydol
1 Azelf
Total Pokemon: 20
14-16 Energy (at least 6 that provide
sychic24-26 Trainers/tools/etc.
It depends. If you're only running psychic and DCE, 16 is certainly overkill, though, I still wouldn't want to run much less than 14... maybe 12 at the least. If you're going to be running utility energy like calls which, while great, don't really serve their purpose as energy* in this deck, I'd go 15 or 16.
*What I mean by that is: a call energy can't really fuel any pokemon's attacks in PLOX by itself. Call energy + psychic can't really fuel any attacks that a psychic energy alone couldn't (unless you use the newer Kirlia), and call energy + DCE can't do anything that DCE by itself couldn't. Really, as far as providing energy is concerned, the best a call can do is pay for Spiritomb's retreat (which isn't horrible), or stack with a couple of psychic energies to power Psychic Lock (which is less than ideal in a format that includes DCE). It's a great card, and I'm not against playing it in this deck, but purely from a providing energy standpoint, it's a bad energy and really shouldn't be counted as energy when building the deck.
*What I mean by that is: a call energy can't really fuel any pokemon's attacks in PLOX by itself. Call energy + psychic can't really fuel any attacks that a psychic energy alone couldn't (unless you use the newer Kirlia), and call energy + DCE can't do anything that DCE by itself couldn't. Really, as far as providing energy is concerned, the best a call can do is pay for Spiritomb's retreat (which isn't horrible), or stack with a couple of psychic energies to power Psychic Lock (which is less than ideal in a format that includes DCE). It's a great card, and I'm not against playing it in this deck, but purely from a providing energy standpoint, it's a bad energy and really shouldn't be counted as energy when building the deck.
butlerforhire
New Member
In order for me to sleep at night, I'm going to need the OP to acknowledge that I have never once suggested the removal of Call energy from the deck.
I have nightmares when I think about someone actually believing I would give that kind of 'advice.'
I have nightmares when I think about someone actually believing I would give that kind of 'advice.'
You told him to remove Call Energy from the deck? What were you thinking?
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