POP Floor rules encourage cheating?

[Sensei]

True Steve,this will probably be amended soon enough.I also want to bring to mind again to everyone,that my posts have been mainly geared to the situation stated above(as I have said before).Definately not for any HJ to go off on a tangent and start making up wild of the wall rulings.

Phil pretty much hit the nail on the head for the most part.The HJ is the final arbiter and can "bend" a rule as he sees fit if the situation permits it.I hinted at this as well in my last post.These rules are guidelines and if you need to "bend" them a little and lessen a penalty(and the reverse is true as well) so as to keep the fun in the game for everyone,then by all means do it.As I have stated,and the MT`s in the past as well,that the game is meant to be enjoyed first and foremost.Also,like Phil says,the Floor rules won`t answer every question you come across.

Sorry JDB,but you are wrong.You say because something is not written in the floor rules,it is "legal"?We could go into a whole "list" of things it doesn`t say as well that we would be here for weeks just arguing about that alone.And with that said,it still does not get around that the HJ is the final arbiter on a ruling whether you like it or not.If you feel a HJ ever ruled wrong on something,you can always contact PUI and give your opinion.As for your "enlightenment want",I clearly stated that I was talking about this specific situation and anyone who goes second and tries to not show their opponent their hand in the case of them mulliganing,is clearly trying to twist the rules because we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are.

`Sensei

 

[jdb728]

You say because something is not written in the floor rules,it is "legal"?

I may be wrong about this, but don't the Floor Rules regarding the Start of Game Setup cover EVERY STEP of the Start of Game Setup?

Definately not for any HJ to go off on a tangent and start making up wild of the wall rulings.

Weren't you the one who was talking about how the HJ "is the final arbator", and saying that players shouldn't say the HJ is wrong because the HJ has the final authority?

The HJ is the final arbiter and can "bend" a rule as he sees fit if the situation permits it.

The only problem is, who decides whether or not "the situation permits it", the HJ?

These rules are guidelines and if you need to "bend" them a little and lessen a penalty(and the reverse is true as well) so as to keep the fun in the game for everyone,then by all means do it.

How much fun do you think it is for a player to get penalized(or get even a warning) for doing somthing completely legal?

Also,like Phil says,the Floor rules won`t answer every question you come across.

I know that, but this is one of the questions that the Floor Rules do answer.

As for your "enlightenment want",I clearly stated that I was talking about this specific situation and anyone who goes second and tries to not show their opponent their hand in the case of them mulliganing,is clearly trying to twist the rules because we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are.

If I'm correct in assumming that the Floor Rules cover all of the Start of game setup steps, then they may be abusing the Rules, but if it's legal, it's legal, whether players abuse it or not. A player can just retreat their active and use a switch to put the same Pokemon active to get rid of an effect such as Smokescreen(because it left the active spot), now this is abusing the rule that some would consider a "loophole", so does that mean that a Judge can penalize the player for abusing this rule?

"we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are.", of course we all knew that you always had to flip a coin(or use any other type of randomizer) to see if you could retreat while your active Pokemon is confused, does it mean the HJ should be able to disregard PUSA's new rule about being able to retreat your active without a flip when it's confused?

Posted by GymLeaderPhil:

This mulligan thing is anybody's guess at this point. There is no clear official answer.

I agree. This is exactly the reason HJ's should NOT jump the gun, and say that this was a mistake, and proceed to penalize people for not showing their hands, at least not until we know whether or not PUSA did this on purpose.

Do you know what's going to happen at tournaments that allow this misinterpreted ruiling?

The problem is that we don't even know if it was a mistake, for all we know, this may very well be the way PUSA wanted it to be. I don't know for a fact one way or another if this was intentional or not, so I'm not gonna start saying that "It's a mistake" without some proof first(maybe hearing it from PUSA would be nice), instead of just guesses from certain people who say they know for a fact that it was a mistake.


This post is IMO of course.

 

[NoPoke]

LOL

Under Wotc we had

1)Floor Rules split into two documents: game specific floor rules and Universal Floor rules.

2)Penalty Guidelines

Now one of these is obviously 'guidelines' and the other is what?.

I find it surprising that some HJs have apparently been treating RULES as guidelines. However that does explain some of the arguments put forward that a player is cheating when they don't show their hand.

Rules is Rules people. If they were Guidelines then they would say so!

 

[irwinmalek]

I would have said that if your opponent says he is mulliganing, he shouldn't (as it stands at the moment) have to show his hand to his opponent. If, however, his opponent believes that that player may have a basic Pokémon in his hand, he should call a judge, who can check his opponent's hand without showing you your opponent's hand.

It's not perfect, obviously, but IMO it's the best way to follow the floor rules until they are edited, and keep good sportsmanship intact.

 

[DaytonGymLeader]

I may be wrong about this, but don't the Floor Rules regarding the Start of Game Setup cover EVERY STEP of the Start of Game Setup?

Let's start to take this apart again. There was a provision in the UTR under WotC for Pre-Game that I've seen almost nobody follow. You're supposed to have 3 minutes for Pre-Game, but there have been a few tournaments that I've attended as a player (wow, I actually used to play this game :lol: ) that did not allow this. Did I point this out? Yes. Did I vehemently argue this point with the HJ? No, it's the Head Judge's show.

The only problem is, who decides whether or not "the situation permits it", the HJ?

Any person associated with the tournament who can make a valid argument. However, you must ACCEPT the fact that the Head Judge's Final Ruling is law for all practical purposes. It was that way under WotC and there was no argument as to that fact. Why should there be argument now over the Head Judge's role as the final say in a situation? Granted you can appeal, but do you remember the track record of successful appeals to the DCI after a Head Judge has ruled? I can pretty much tell you it was close to 0% successful unless the Head Judge REALLY stepped on it. We're there to ensure FAIRNESS. Now how fair is it that player 2 gets to MISREPRESENT (which is Cheating IMO per the Floor Rules) his/her hand in saying they have a mulligan because they don't like the starting Pokemon that they have?

If I'm correct in assumming that the Floor Rules cover all of the Start of game setup steps, then they may be abusing the Rules, but if it's legal, it's legal, whether players abuse it or not. A player can just retreat their active and use a switch to put the same Pokemon active to get rid of an effect such as Smokescreen(because it left the active spot), now this is abusing the rule that some would consider a "loophole", so does that mean that a Judge can penalize the player for abusing this rule?

"we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are.", of course we all knew that you always had to flip a coin(or use any other type of randomizer) to see if you could retreat while your active Pokemon is confused, does it mean the HJ should be able to disregard PUSA's new rule about being able to retreat your active without a flip when it's confused?

That's in the rulebook and also an ESTABLISHED game mechanic. It's not a loophole.

Posted by GymLeaderPhil: I agree. This is exactly the reason HJ's should NOT jump the gun, and say that this was a mistake, and proceed to penalize people for not showing their hands, at least not until we know whether or not PUSA did this on purpose.

The problem is that we don't even know if it was a mistake, for all we know, this may very well be the way PUSA wanted it to be. I don't know for a fact one way or another if this was intentional or not, so I'm not gonna start saying that "It's a mistake" without some proof first(maybe hearing it from PUSA would be nice), instead of just guesses from certain people who say they know for a fact that it was a mistake.

This post is IMO of course.

So, I'll go back to my original point - APPLY COMMON SENSE.

The problem with common sense is that it it is not so common!

 

[Sensei]

Once again,Steve did a great job of replying while I was away.Again,he is 100% correct.Due to that,and that your statements, JDB, are the exact same thing you`ve argued over and over and still is not correct,I won`t pick your post apart as you have tried mine.As the saying goes "Ain`t no sense in talking when no one is listening".

One other thing I`d like to say is that you have had several people with years of a proven track record in running a tourney as judge,HJ,and TO that are trying to point out some points to everyone which is just being ignored by a few.By no means does this make everyone of us a "know it all"...au contrair,we all make mistakes.But it would be a good bet that we are correct and know what we are talking about.

`Sensei

 

[ukpokemonpro]

One other thing I`d like to say is that you have had several people with years of a proven track record in running a tourney as judge,HJ,and TO that are trying to point out some points to everyone which is just being ignored by a few.By no means does this make everyone of us a "know it all"...au contrair,we all make mistakes.But it would be a good bet that we are correct and know what we are talking about.

Let's see Head Judge at European Gencon says it's needs changing..

Head Judge and TO at UK Gym Challenges says it needs changing

TO at numerous UK tourneys and Head Judge from Se Challenges Series say they need changing and you ignore them.. honest Sensei can you not see when you yourself contradict all you are posting?

PS a little bird tells me you are not adverse to arguing rulings at major tourneys with the judges yourself

Perhaps the judge protests too much methinks...

 

[DaytonGymLeader]

Let's see Head Judge at European Gencon says it's needs changing..

Head Judge and TO at UK Gym Challenges says it needs changing

TO at numerous UK tourneys and Head Judge from Se Challenges Series say they need changing and you ignore them.. honest Sensei can you not see when you yourself contradict all you are posting?

PS a little bird tells me you are not adverse to arguing rulings at major tourneys with the judges yourself

Perhaps the judge protests too much methinks...

It's not just the UK or Europe saying that the Floor Rules should be clarified. We're not disagreeing with each other on the fact that the Floor Rules should be clarified. The issue we're disagreeing on is the issue of whether or not Player 2 MUST show their hand if they are declaring a mulligan. I think that there's been enough evidence presented that Player 2 must. It can be simplified to a Letter Of The Law interpretation versus a Spirit Of The Law interpretation. The Letter, IMO, isn't complete. Apply common sense and adhere to the Spirit, which, IMO, is to have Player 2 show their hand when declaring a mulligan.

There's lots of rulings that we as a community don't agree with, however, in the absence of guidance, we have applied past precedent with common sense to work through the issue. To this day I still disagree with the way that Murkrow's Feint works in Team Play beacuse of the way the card is worded, but that's just an example. We're not working thru this productively. Don't take that as debate isn't good or useful in working these issues out, but both sides are deeply entrenched and neither is appearing to budge (myself included). If it's in doubt, let's raise the issue in the Ask The MTs Forum and/or have TC bring the issue up during the next weekly rules meeting. Untul that happens, I'm going with having Player 2 show. If the MTs come back and say that I'm wrong, I'll be the first in line to offer my appologies.

 

[NoPoke]

My position is that the floor rules need to be changed to reflect these ommisions.

However if we fall back on common practice and go with what the head judge says. Then do the floor rules need to be changed at all? After all common sense will fill any errors or omissions?

Anyone who is argueing that the floor rules need to be changed is also accepting that as they stand 'common sense' and 'dont argue with the HJ' just aren't sufficient or satisfactory in a tournament environment.

I feel 100% certain that the you should show your hand when you muligan. Just as I'm 100% certain that you can start with a fossil. Its a pity that the floor rules are silent on the latter and make no mention of the former.

Surely the only common sense thing to do is to change the floor rules. Until then we should stick by them in sanctioned play, once you open the flood gates of interpretation there is no going back.

I remember the Suicune rullings: for a couple of weeks we played with a very unusual rulling on Suicune even though many of us thought it wrong. But for those two weeks the strange rulling WAS EXACTLY how we played. Or am I wrong an a few enlightened souls decided that they knew more that the rulings and played it different?

 

[jdb728]

Now how fair is it that player 2 gets to MISREPRESENT (which is Cheating IMO per the Floor Rules) his/her hand in saying they have a mulligan because they don't like the starting Pokemon that they have?

I said nothing about player2 should be able to "misrepresent their hand", in fact, I think it would be a good idea for player to request the judge looks at the opponents hand(to make sure whether or not a basic is there), but I just don't think the player should have to show their hand to their opponent .

But it would be a good bet that we are correct and know what we are talking about.

I agree, I think it was just a simple mistake, all I'm sayin', is that is still just a guess :thumb: .

 

[Sensei]

Let's see Head Judge at European Gencon says it's needs changing..

Head Judge and TO at UK Gym Challenges says it needs changing

`Pro,if you read my posts again,I clearly stated that I agreed that it needs clarification.As Steve just pointed out,we were disagreeing on the issue of the second player having to show their hand in the case of a mulligan...

This is how misunderstandings start...

`Sensei

 

[SteveP]

WOW, so GLPhil and Sensei think a HJ can "bend" the rules? So, players CAN'T "bend" the rules, but a head judge CAN "bend" the rules. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Listen, let's not deify the HJ position. If we give HJs the power to "bend" the rules, then the rules would mean NOTHING. And, chaos takes over.

Nintendo MTs, please fix this rule, or explain the omission.

PS. Did anyone see "The Practice" tonight? (Oh no, here comes a bad example by SteveP from the liberal media ) The lawyer played by Slater revealed privileged information to the DA. In his defense before the Bar Commission, a rule in the lawyer's Code of Conduct was pointed out to the commissioners that allowed Slater's character to reveal the privileged info the way that he did. During their ruling, the commissioners stated the this rule had "saved" the lawyer from being disbarred; however, the "loophole" in the Code of Conduct would certainly be corrected.

So, here's my point. No one is above the rules, not even the HJ. Now I ask, does a HJ have the authority rule that something in the Rulings doesn't make sense, is not right, or defies common sense? Therefore, he/she can "bend" the rules so that it's right or makes sense? Possibly, so long as lots of other people feel the same way. However, IMO, this particular rule we're chatting about here, doesn't fall into that "doesn't make sense" category.

 

[NoPoke]

As SteveP, myself and others keep pointing out. The floor rules are uncomfortably clear at the moment.. They don't need clarification they need a small change.

 

[Sensei]

As Steve G,myself, and others keep pointing out.The floor rules are clear for the most part but omitted a vitally important part of pre-game.They need clarification by putting in the omitted part.

So NoPoke,you are saying that you will allow the player going second to not show his hand to his opponent in a mulligan until Jimmer or whomever takes you by the hand and says "Lookee,we put in this clarification just for you"?No wonder this game suffers the way it does.

Steve,don`t take my words and twist the intent of them.You know damn well I`m talking about "specific" situations(and I clearly stated in past posts this did not mean a HJ can make up any rules).You telling me that you never gave a "verbal warning" instead of issuing the "harsher" penalty?I know plenty of HJ`s who have including the MT`s at the STS`.Well,they did, so go yell at them that they can`t "bend" the rules too...

`Sensei

 

[NoPoke]

I have already said as such earlier. I expect the players to follow the rules and show respect. I believe that they expect me to follow the rules too. Anything else might look like favouritism.

What I don't understand is since we agree that the floor rules need changing why is it so bad for me to follow them until they are changed. It is my firm belief that I am equally subject to the vagaries of the floor rules as the players. Untill someone tells me that it is official policy I will not elevate my status above that of the floor rules.

Why do you keep on bringing up the issue of the penalty guidelines? there is no problem whatsoever with the HJ varying penalties..I asked MTM just how much flexibility a HJ had with the Penalty Guidelines and was told that it was total. However the HJ had no such discression where the floor rules were concerned. The Judges are there to enforce the floor rules fairly and without bias.

 

[Sensei]

Agreed,we do need it to be changed/clarified.And to be "above" the floor rules,is not the intent of what we have mentioned.What we did intend,was that if there was a serious omission as in this case,then the HJ could announce this in the beginning of a tourneyand state how the situation was to be ruled through the tourney.By doing this,it by no means makes a HJ some all of the sudden god person creator of any rulings he wants.It just means that we recognized a potential problem and are making adjustments until it gets corrected.

Anyways,we`ll ask about this Thursday if there is a rules meeting and if so,one of us will let everyone know what was said.Until then,since we have mostly gone beyond arguing and looks like it could continue,I`m going to lock this.

`Sensei

 

[Sensei]

OK,here is the ruling straight from the PUI Rules Team Meeting.The rest of the rulings will be put together tomorrow and be posted.


Q. In a sanctioned Tournament, does the player going second have to show his hand in the event they have no Basics at the start of the
game? The Floor Rules don't explicitly say that they have to.
A. Yes, you still reveal your hand before you shuffle it
back into your deck. The rules from the rulebook still apply unless
specifically stated otherwise. (Oct 16, 2003 PUI Rules Team)