Prerelease raichu unearthed???

[raichuforyou]

I am kind of surprised we haven't gotten more pictures of a PreChu. Why is there only the one or two images of it?
I think whoever recieved them at Wizards put them away somewhere. Think about it. If you recieved a card like that you probably wouldn't think much of it at the time. They probably got all kinds of "treasures" but didn't think of them as such because it was probably a daily thing. It makes sense why they don't show up (to me anyway). It was just another mistake.
I doubt anyone that owns a copy would be reading Pokegym forums or that they even have any interest in Pokemon anymore. There are just too many ways for [insert rumored number here] accidental cards to disappear.
Just like you can't prove that bigfoot doesn't exist, you can't prove that this card doesn't exist (you can't prove a negative lol). I don't think the burden of prove has been entirely met but all evidence points to the PreChu existing.

 

[garyis2000]

I am kind of surprised we haven't gotten more pictures of a PreChu. Why is there only the one or two images of it?
I think whoever recieved them at Wizards put them away somewhere. Think about it. If you recieved a card like that you probably wouldn't think much of it at the time. They probably got all kinds of "treasures" but didn't think of them as such because it was probably a daily thing. It makes sense why they don't show up (to me anyway). It was just another mistake.
I doubt anyone that owns a copy would be reading Pokegym forums or that they even have any interest in Pokemon anymore. There are just too many ways for [insert rumored number here] accidental cards to disappear.
Just like you can't prove that bigfoot doesn't exist, you can't prove that this card doesn't exist (you can't prove a negative lol). I don't think the burden of prove has been entirely met but all evidence points to the PreChu existing.

Well, I can admit that at least a post or counterfeited stamped one exists

 

[PokePop]

I'm think I'm with Gary, I don't see the harm in asking. It's stirred up a really interesting conversation at the very least and made for a really entertaining thread. I think interpreting the air of "devil's advocate" as personal offense directed at anyone would be a mistake, but perhaps I'm in the minority there.

Up to a point it's "Devil's Advocate".
At some point, it does start to shift over to thinking I'm being called a liar...

 

[PokePop]

As I said, most people can no longer tell original WOTC square cuts from newly sheet cut ones. Hence they're of no extra value.

I got some square cut cards directly from WotC reps, so I know they exist and I know they are not errors.
But they are a real, rare variant.

How much are square cuts valued at now that it would be worth faking them?

 

[garyis2000]

Up to a point it's "Devil's Advocate".
At some point, it does start to shift over to thinking I'm being called a liar...

And why would anybody call you a liar? There's no question you saw what you believed to be an authentic preraichu. The question is...was it actually authentic. I've made mistakes before too but I certainly wasn't lying

---------- Post added 05/09/2013 at 03:27 PM ----------

I got some square cut cards directly from WotC reps, so I know they exist and I know they are not errors.
But they are a real, rare variant.

How much are square cuts valued at now that it would be worth faking them?

Yes, and I have too pop so I know some were cut at wizards. Scott was questioning it though since the advent of cut up aftermarket sheets and how can you tell the difference. I do know how to tell the difference but its best I keep that Info to myself for now.
Yes, they exist...but it matters little for now.

 

[SD PokeMom]

i'm not sure being considered gullible or deluded is any better than being called a liar...jmho. and i too have authentic square cut holos, given to me by a WotC rep.

another point to consider: to my knowledge, the WotC people who were in possession of the pre-chus are still working in the gaming industry. i can't see it doing their professional reputations within said industry any good were they to bite at your offer...

jmho.

 

[smpratte]

I was more concerned with the fact that you (Gary) were not putting on the detective hat for the square cuts. Even though we know they exist like the Raichu, there is no way to tell the difference.

You believe that the Raichu I saw is not real. If we use the same logic, there is no way to tell if the square cuts are real either. As you are saying that the copies we saw by WOTC could not be real? How can you trust the square cuts?

 

[DJGigabyte]

You are correct Gary, we don't have to believe everything we hear.

Personally, I have not seen a Prerelease Raichu, so I have to take peoples word for it existing or not existing.

On one hand, we have you. Claiming that card does not exist, for what I can see as no further reason than "I haven't seen one".

On the other hand, we have not only multiple serious collectors, who have been active in this community for a lot longer than yourself (I know you have been a large buyer and seller since the beginning, but the community has been a fairly recent arrival), but we also have testimony from the people who actual worked on production of these cards.

You claim to not be calling Pop a liar because he is believing what he was told. By that logic you are calling the people who told him this lairs.

These people, if I'm not mistaken, were the WotC staff themselves, including the well known and well respected Mike Boozer. A gentlemen who remained friends with some people and answered questions on Pokemon long after WotC were no longer involved.

In making a choice of who to believe, the answer is obvious.

 

[Daelum]

PSA are only humans after all, whether we like it or not. Well, they do have a few machines here and there but still. Even though they are 'experts' in their field, it doesn't make them 100% right, 100% of the time. If you were there and watched him sign it then it is legitimate. End of. Do you really question that someone somehow switched your signed card?

Just as a helpful thing to do when getting autographs. When I was at the PGA tour, even though I didn't know all of the people who I was getting autographs from I video recorded everything that was done. This way if I ever sell etc. I have proof that no-one can deny it's legitimacy.

Well actually, that's a commonly mistaken belief. People take videos and photos of their items being signed, and then try and pass the item off as authentic. The thing is, I can take a picture of me getting my jersey signed, then go buy 10 of the same jerseys, and copy the signature by hand on each jersey and use that photo as "proof" of the signature's authenticity. I saw this happen once at a sports card show: a guy was yelling at a PSA grader because his jersey didn't pass authentication even though he had a picture of some guy getting "the same jersey" signed.



As for my view on this whole PreRai mess, I do find it odd how there are so many holes in the story. Yeah, Mike Boozer confirmed the card, and yes, Scott and PokePop saw it in person, but why are there only 1-2 pictures up? William should have scanned the card when he got it. There should be more pictures. Also, I do agree with Gary in that the card William purchased could have possibly been fake.

However, I am not calling anyone a liar. There is a possibility of a WoTC conspiracy, and Mike Boozer made $12k off a fake card or whatever, but I highly doubt that as, to my knowledge, there is more confirmation of the PreRai than just from Mike Boozer.


Also, Scott, you were saying the Illustrator is a much more desired card than the PreRai. I agree, but disagree. Yes, over the whole collecting world, the Illustrator is more desired. But to a primarily English or English-only collector, the PreRai tops the Illustrator any day. You see what I mean?

 

[garyis2000]

You are correct Gary, we don't have to believe everything we hear.

Personally, I have not seen a Prerelease Raichu, so I have to take peoples word for it existing or not existing.

On one hand, we have you. Claiming that card does not exist, for what I can see as no further reason than "I haven't seen one".

On the other hand, we have not only multiple serious collectors, who have been active in this community for a lot longer than yourself (I know you have been a large buyer and seller since the beginning, but the community has been a fairly recent arrival), but we also have testimony from the people who actual worked on production of these cards.

You claim to not be calling Pop a liar because he is believing what he was told. By that logic you are calling the people who told him this lairs.

These people, if I'm not mistaken, were the WotC staff themselves, including the well known and well respected Mike Boozer. A gentlemen who remained friends with some people and answered questions on Pokemon long after WotC were no longer involved.

In making a choice of who to believe, the answer is obvious.

It's not a matter of believing anyone. Nobody mentioned here would intentionally be deceitful.
I'm hoping that some authentic ones do exist. If the ones pop and Scott saw are authentic it would be great because that would mean there may be more. It's been mentioned here there may be a dozen? My only question is where? It's unprecedented in our hobby that a valuable item in which there are multiples of...have remained buried for over a dozen years.
Quite odd!

 

[smpratte]

That is what I was referring to, the serious collectors as a whole. The English only or primarily English collectors are going to obviously want the english cards, which will hands down be the Prechu.

It is counter intuitive to me to put something like the raichu above the japanese cards as the hobbies origin and existence is Japanese. This is just my opinion. But in my experience, the serious collectors I know as a whole are going after an Illustrator. Emphasis on the words "serious" and "collectors". :smile:

Your point about the jersey's is unfortunately a reality. I only buy authenticated auto's from PSA/DNA. The amount of forgeries (Malicious and non-malicious) in autographs is unbelievable.

 

[garyis2000]

Well actually, that's a commonly mistaken belief. People take videos and photos of their items being signed, and then try and pass the item off as authentic. The thing is, I can take a picture of me getting my jersey signed, then go buy 10 of the same jerseys, and copy the signature by hand on each jersey and use that photo as "proof" of the signature's authenticity. I saw this happen once at a sports card show: a guy was yelling at a PSA grader because his jersey didn't pass authentication even though he had a picture of some guy getting "the same jersey" signed.



As for my view on this whole PreRai mess, I do find it odd how there are so many holes in the story. Yeah, Mike Boozer confirmed the card, and yes, Scott and PokePop saw it in person, but why are there only 1-2 pictures up? William should have scanned the card when he got it. There should be more pictures. Also, I do agree with Gary in that the card William purchased could have possibly been fake.

However, I am not calling anyone a liar. There is a possibility of a WoTC conspiracy, and Mike Boozer made $12k off a fake card or whatever, but I highly doubt that as, to my knowledge, there is more confirmation of the PreRai than just from Mike Boozer.


Also, Scott, you were saying the Illustrator is a much more desired card than the PreRai. I agree, but disagree. Yes, over the whole collecting world, the Illustrator is more desired. But to a primarily English or English-only collector, the PreRai tops the Illustrator any day. You see what I mean?

Well said Daelum...even the parts I disagree with:biggrin:

---------- Post added 05/09/2013 at 04:25 PM ----------

That is what I was referring to, the serious collectors as a whole. The English only or primarily English collectors are going to obviously want the english cards, which will hands down be the Prechu.

It is counter intuitive to me to put something like the raichu above the japanese cards as the hobbies origin and existence is Japanese. This is just my opinion. But in my experience, the serious collectors I know as a whole are going after an Illustrator. Emphasis on the words "serious" and "collectors". :smile:

Your point about the jersey's is unfortunately a reality. I only buy authenticated auto's from PSA/DNA. The amount of forgeries (Malicious and non-malicious) in autographs is unbelievable.

I just got some PSA DNA ball results back today. I only trust PSA for these also.

Cert # Item Primary Subject Result/Grade
T79956 Baseball REGGIE JACKSON Authentic
T79957 Baseball NOLAN RYAN Authentic
T10705 Baseball MICKEY MANTLE Authentic Grade 8
T79955 Baseball LOU BROCK Authentic
T79954 Baseball KEN GRIFFEY JR. Authentic
T79953 Baseball HANK AARON Authentic

 

[Daelum]

That is what I was referring to, the serious collectors as a whole. The English only or primarily English collectors are going to obviously want the english cards, which will hands down be the Prechu.

It is counter intuitive to me to put something like the raichu above the japanese cards as the hobbies origin and existence is Japanese. This is just my opinion. But in my experience, the serious collectors I know as a whole are going after an Illustrator. Emphasis on the words "serious" and "collectors". :smile:

Are you saying David Persin isn't a serious collector?

I just got some PSA DNA ball results back today. I only trust PSA for these also.

Cert # Item Primary Subject Result/Grade
T79956 Baseball REGGIE JACKSON Authentic
T79957 Baseball NOLAN RYAN Authentic
T10705 Baseball MICKEY MANTLE Authentic Grade 8
T79955 Baseball LOU BROCK Authentic
T79954 Baseball KEN GRIFFEY JR. Authentic
T79953 Baseball HANK AARON Authentic

Oh wow! Throw those bad boys on the market!
How much ya looking to get for that Griffey ball? He's my favorite :3

 

[smpratte]

David Persin is definitely a series collector. However, he only collectors English cards. I was referring to the larger group of general serious collectors. Typically they are in love with the old japanese promo's. That is usually the last stop for the serious collector.

And Gary, My reaction to those autographs.

 

[raichuforyou]

People have been fooled by crazier things than a PreChu. Although I am confused about the lack of pics or video,
other evidence strongly suggests that the card exists.
We have a former WOTC rep who confirms it, we have multiple eye witnesses (both respected and trustworthy), we have a couple pictures, and we know of sale(s) as well as a current owner. Like I said, I'd bet most of them have been put away and possibly forgotten.
BTW someone doesn't have to be a liar, delusional, or gullible to be wrong. They can be mistaken or decieved. That's beside the point though but just needed to be brought up because of the accusations going on here.
I have to stand by my opinion that it does exist.

 

[garyis2000]

Are you saying David Persin isn't a serious collector?




Oh wow! Throw those bad boys on the market!
How much ya looking to get for that Griffey ball? He's my favorite :3

The Griffey ball is super clean. Lets work out a trade

---------- Post added 05/09/2013 at 06:43 PM ----------

And Gary, My reaction to those autographs.

Lol...ill get them back in a couple days and post a pic if its ok.

---------- Post added 05/09/2013 at 06:47 PM ----------

Jus curious. did pokepop and Scott see the same raichu or different ones?

 

[TonySandlin]

Its probably been mentioned before, but I'm guessing that the people that own them have no intention of getting rid of them for any price. If they did, we would probably hear about it. That being said.... If you wouldnt want to sell your extremely rare and sought after card, why would you want to bring attention to yourself? The Pokerazzi might swarm the owner with offers on the Raichu. Maybe it would be extreme to think that it would bring a lot of stress, but its not unreasonable to be cautious.

IMO, the owners of the Pre-Chu dont want to bring attention to themselves and are keeping quiet

 

[Daelum]

Its probably been mentioned before, but I'm guessing that the people that own them have no intention of getting rid of them for any price. If they did, we would probably hear about it. That being said.... If you wouldnt want to sell your extremely rare and sought after card, why would you want to bring attention to yourself? The Pokerazzi might swarm the owner with offers on the Raichu. Maybe it would be extreme to think that it would bring a lot of stress, but its not unreasonable to be cautious.

IMO, the owners of the Pre-Chu dont want to bring attention to themselves and are keeping quiet

If a PreRai owner saw this, he would most likely just PM or email garyis2000. The dumbest thing he could do is comment on here - that would create a Pokerazzi storm like you said

 

[smpratte]

Jus curious. did pokepop and Scott see the same raichu or different ones?

I don't know how many Pop saw, but the one I did see went through a few people's hands so it is very likely he saw it as well.

 

[TonySandlin]

If a PreRai owner saw this, he would most likely just PM or email garyis2000. The dumbest thing he could do is comment on here - that would create a Pokerazzi storm like you said

Thats very true, but if I didnt even have the intention of selling it, I wouldnt risk telling anyone in the Pokebusiness about it.