Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Prime Challenge Boxes releasing November 15

Wow, this blew up fast. :)

I just want to put in a couple points, take them or leave them.

1) Yes, it is a bummer that the people who have Yanmegas will see a sharp decline in their value on the secondary market. I know this sound mean, but welcome to the real world. People buy and sell stuff all the time on speculation and the market can change at ANY given time. This is true in collectables, the stock market, banks, housing, etc. In general, it is assumed that people know the risks they are taking when the buy stuff on a relatively free market. They know that the price will never stay peaked. They know that at some point in time they will have to sell or lose value. That's life. People get burned by this stuff all the time.

2) Pokemon has repeatedly stated that the secondary market is not authorized by them and it is not a factor when they make decisions. Their decisions are based on profit potential and game health.

-First, this is a great profit idea. They are bound to have overstock of the theme decks from this period. They are likely going to be rotated out of the format at the end of this year. So, they need a way to move the product. Well, it just so happens that the Verdant Frost Theme Deck had Yanmega and Mamoswine in its stock list. What better way to move that product than to add in bonus cards that fit the deck: an extra Mamoswine line and Yanmega Prime to go with the Yanmega line in the deck. This is about clearing inventory and it is a great move.

-Second, this is undeniably good for the competitive scene. Anyone who tries to deny that is just wrong. It is always good for more players to have better access to the best cards. People (i'm sure some of whom are complaining about this) hate luck in this game. Well, this is another fashion of reducing luck. It is not "fair" for people who have less money to not be able to play the best decks. This creates another "luck' based variable in the game. You could have the absolute best Pokemon strategist locked out of competition due to card price. Well moves like this level the playing field. They allow more players the access to better decks. This should increase the amount of skill required to win events. Any true competitor would welcome this.

3) People also (i'm sure some who don't like this move) want to be more in line with Japan. Many wonder, with anger, why Pokemon Int. does not bring over the starter decks with EXs, Primes, and Lv.Xs in them. Well, this is a set in that direction.

Again, I am sorry to people who lose value here, but that's the risk you run when stepping into the secondary market. It is a risk that everyone knows about.

You hit the nail on the head. The market is never stable. All these arguments are based upon people thinking they had a stable investment. Do you guys not know what happened when the housing market peaked? Crashes lead to huge losses and you never know when it is going to come. Trading on somethings intrinsic value is dangerous because it is only that because it is what the market says. The market can always change. But it is a trading card GAME after all. Making money should not be anyone's top priority. Sure, the cards are easier to trade, but you can find someone looking for each and every extra card you have pretty much. That is basically all I do on here.
 
Finch: Markets potentially being unstable does not mean that decisions should be made to ACTIVELY destabilize them. The housing market crashed, but I think everyone would agree that if decisions could have been made to PREVENT this, it would have been for the better. If the housing market crashed because the Government decided to hand out 100 dollar houses to everyone who didn't have one...well, that'd be not only more in line with the analogy, but also very frowned upon.
 
hasnthis been actually confirmed by the pokemon comlany us normally this sort of thing would come out in japan first?
 
Finch: Markets potentially being unstable does not mean that decisions should be made to ACTIVELY destabilize them. The housing market crashed, but I think everyone would agree that if decisions could have been made to PREVENT this, it would have been for the better. If the housing market crashed because the Government decided to hand out 100 dollar houses to everyone who didn't have one...well, that'd be not only more in line with the analogy, but also very frowned upon.

Houses grew in value because the demand grew so high they were not worth what people were paying. Cards are the same way. It's more similar to derivatives, which is what mortgages were being traded as, but now ere getting too far off point. Guess what, it is a rare card so demand outweighs production. This leads to people jacking up the prices in a secondary market. the actual producers are not making money, so this is their response. It brings down the secondary market and the money back to the producers.
 
hasnthis been actually confirmed by the pokemon comlany us normally this sort of thing would come out in japan first?
It's basically confirmed by the distributors. Remember, they also get lot's of theme decks with good cards, etc. that we never get, so it's not impossible for us to get something exclusive.
 
Finch: Rather than flood the market with dirt cheap Yanmegas, you can use a model more similar to what magic does with their reprintings, the From the Vault series. They are a limited print run of valuable cards, some obv more valuable than others, which they retail for roughly 50ish. This gets more cards in the market, but not at the price crippling levels. This more restrained release brings the prices DOWN without crippling them. Cards don't have to be sky high in value, but they don't have to be dirt cheap either. Reducing price without stabbing it half to death IS an option when the re-release is disciplined.

Before someone says " 50 dollars!? thats more than Yanmega! " you would be getting 15 cards, most generally rare-ish, but the print run is ACTUALLY limited. These releases would do exactly what is healthy for the availability of the game: get more copies in circulation to "meet" demand, while keep them at a fair price without tanking value. With Magic, the values of the re-release cards have generally dropped 5-10 dollars ( for the higher end cards ) or about 25% of their value, not the 75% we'll likely see with Yanmega.

If you feel that the price of Yanmega is "inflated" ( and with the rarity scheme, price per pack, odds of pulling the card, etc, I do NOT, 40 dollars for a Prime rarity card is WELL without what its rarity dictates it should be, it isn't close to being at an unnatural value ) then you'd want its value decreased to its natural value, not well below half of it.
 
Pokemon is not obligated to adhere to any sort of secondary market expectations, but at the same time, they have to acknowledge that their decisions WILL impact the opinions of their consumers. It is a bad PR move towards those that do care about the value of their cards. Whether it is their primary M.O. to cater to this demographic or not, they can't just IGNORE the message their decisions send either. Should a politician be bound to cater to each of their constituents demands? Of course not, but don't expect them to vote for you in the next election either. This ties into the first point you made as well, where all investor markets can fluctuate, but you don't see Tops or Upper Deck re-releasing old rare baseball rookie cards into the market 10 years after the fact because it will spike a sale and allow "everyone to have one". Its called being responsible with your product. I understand that TCGs are a difficult breed because they have to cater to both players and collectors, but while Pokemon is a GAME, it is ALSO a collectible, and if you aren't willing to at least respect the interests of the half of the games fans who DO collect ( and hey, a large motive behind collecting IS value, especially in a rough economy where some degree of return on cards, if necessary, is a nice safety net for your disposable income ) then that is being selfish.

I've bolded the largest logical fallacy in your argument. You're making the presumption that the demand of the collector is the same demand as the player, and that the demand quantity of the collector is the same quantity demand of the player. While there are certainly players who are collectors who may be a bit peeved at this, I would argue that the position is probably not as a bad as you make it out to be.

The thing is that collecting is not a hard-set habit: there's no set fact saying 'hey, this is how you collect and how you should collect.' Having one Yanmega Prime is as equally valid as having four or five Yanmega Primes. Therefore, the act of having multiple Yanmega Primes is a purely voluntary act. The cost of that therefore is how much is invested by the individual collector and his or her actions. So, the logic is that the higher the investment, the lower the return in an upset of prices. That'd only be a problem if it was a either

A) a socially implemented act used as a means between ALL collectors (which is not the case)
B) an officially endorsed act used by Nintendo (which is also not the case)

The problem in that is that there isn't actually any beneficial standpoint from Nintendo to look at this: from a purely business perspective, they have much to gain by diluting the marketing with accessible cards and little to lose by chopping Yanmega Prime's value. As callous as I sound, that's the fact: the secondary market will not, at the end of the day, show up on Nintendo's invoices and books, and that is ultimately what matters to their stock portfolio and those investing into them.

Because there is a quantity demanded in the competitive field, they will find it within their best interest to supply Yanmega Primes at a cheaper rate because it encourages more people to spend.

So, you may say, what about the opinion of the collectors who spend a lot of time and money into acquiring Yanmega Primes in multiple numbers (as there are many of them)? Well, the unfortunate fact is that they have much to lose by refusing to support Nintendo - failure to endorse the act in the future, depending on how much you've already invested, undermines what you've been doing, and as a result, many collectors have difficulty trying to break through that pattern: the incentive to stop collecting is, at the end of the day, just not strong enough because the value is just not enough.

It seems dumb, yeah, but it's sort of a perverse law of diminishing returns in action: the more you collect, the lesser the value of each individual card you collect is as the format goes on, and the incentive for you to stop collecting for some reason decreases as your investments rise. Only until bankruptcy or near bankruptcy that you'll break out, and a twenty to thirty dollar price drop is hardly that massive of a bank hit.

The price slash from Yanmega Prime's drop, I will state my bias explicitly, is a 'good' thing, in and out. Why? Because at the end of the day, it allows better access to many other players who have little alternative (Reshiram being the only big one) to meta-focused cards and allows Nintendo to give 'hook' newer players into the meta by giving them cheaper access to effective cards.

For those who have paid tons of money on Yanmega Primes and then find out it's dropping drastically, would you be angry? Of course you would: if I was in your situation, I would be too. Should you be angry? I may sound a bit cold, but no, not really.

Before I continue, I must express my statement that many times I have spent large amounts of money on cards only to find they have been devalued shortly after, and I have been frustrated by it. As someone in university, I am constantly broke, so I do take care to manage my time and funds. But I must still state my disagreement.

Y'see, Yanmega has been, from Canadian Nationals, dropping down in price for a very, very long time. It went from sixty to fifty to fourty-five to fourty and now it's expected to take a steep drop. There is no mass increase of prices before a steep drop in this scenario: prices have floated moderately for the longest time, so the argument of just getting it now isn't that strong of an argument because it has been in circulation at the middle price for a long time.

If you have bought it a couple days before, would you have been angry at such a development occurring? Of course you would, but ultimately that's the way a market works - there's far too many externalities for anyone to keep track of it, and regardless of the market and the mechanisms applied, it'll always be a problem because this is an inherent feature.

The main problem is information asymmetry. Because we know things that Nintendo does not know equates to problems, and so Nintendo must solely based upon what they believe, according to the data they've compiled, to be the best decision. As such, they outline priorities that we ourselves don't know; either side knows things about the market that the other does not, and vice versa, leading to a massive disparity in regards to the proper supply and demand.

It's not a perfect system, but this is not something that's necessarily unique to Pokemon and it can't be rectified by implementing alternative policies because this is a purely secondary market issue.
 
But to address AJ's points:

Yes, it is overall better for the competitive scene. I'm not sure by how much, as I don't see very many players who have won tournaments really not able to get Yanmegas or cards outside of say, Beach, anyways. This aspect of it is purely a pro, although it doesn't come without a cost to those players who already bought the cards.

Pokemon is not obligated to adhere to any sort of secondary market expectations, but at the same time, they have to acknowledge that their decisions WILL impact the opinions of their consumers. It is a bad PR move towards those that do care about the value of their cards. Whether it is their primary M.O. to cater to this demographic or not, they can't just IGNORE the message their decisions send either. Should a politician be bound to cater to each of their constituents demands? Of course not, but don't expect them to vote for you in the next election either. This ties into the first point you made as well, where all investor markets can fluctuate, but you don't see Tops or Upper Deck re-releasing old rare baseball rookie cards into the market 10 years after the fact because it will spike a sale and allow "everyone to have one". Its called being responsible with your product. I understand that TCGs are a difficult breed because they have to cater to both players and collectors, but while Pokemon is a GAME, it is ALSO a collectible, and if you aren't willing to at least respect the interests of the half of the games fans who DO collect ( and hey, a large motive behind collecting IS value, especially in a rough economy where some degree of return on cards, if necessary, is a nice safety net for your disposable income ) then that is being selfish.

Chris we seem to disagree in our conclusions on several points (airhawk06 on 6P), but I always respect the thought that you put into your responses. Hat's off to you on that.

Now...

I will say that the point about players not having access to cards is a bigger deal than you might think. The fallacy is assuming that the most successful players are in fact the best players out there. I do not intend to push up my ego here or to tarnish any of the top players. However, to assume that there are not very many people who are held back in results due to price is tunnel vision. To use me as a personal example, I went 50/50 win loss last season because I literally could not afford anything better than Charizard and then an incomplete MagneRock deck (no BTS, Rare Candy, the Magnezones were given to me by other players). Fast forward to Nats. I went 9-0 Swiss beating very good players in very several games (Sidney Brown, Jayson H, etc). What was the difference. Well, now I had one of the best decks of the format, tyRam, and could finally rely on game skill. I have gone on to win the only BR I played (with several of the better players the STL has in attendance). Since being able to afford a top tier deck, I am collectively 15-2. I am not saying that I am as good as Ness, Pooka, You, etc. But I was definitely held back by finances and the cost of the top decks. I would surmise that there are more people like than you think.

Second, I love the point you brought up about politicians. However, your example plays to my argument more than it plays to yours. They ARE playing to the majority of their constituents.

I would say that for most people this is a competitive card game. So, printing Yanmega's for cheap is good for them.

Secondly, the collectors are either children or are going to hold onto the cards after the rotation. So, for children, the low price is good. Some little kid is now going to be able to get their "favorite Pokemon, Yanmega" for cheap.

For the people who only collect and will hold the card after it is rotated, why in the world would you spend money to buy a card at the peak of it's value. If you are trying to complete a set, wait until after the rotation and get it cheaper. Well, Pokemon has brought that future cheap price into the present and those people don't have to wait anymore. This is, at worst. neutral for those people who are collecting merely to collect.

So, Pokemon has actively catered to two of the three demographics and not substantively harmed the third.

Now, there are players who bought the cards at their peak to play with them. Some of these players bought them recently. It is a bummer, but life's rough.
 
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Chris we seem to disagree in our conclusions on several points (airhawk06 on 6P), but I always respect the thought that you put into your responses. Hat's off to you on that.

Now...

I will say that the point about players not having access to cards is a bigger deal than you might think. The fallacy is assuming that the best players are in fact the best players out there. I do not intend to push up my ego here or to tarnish any of the top players. However, to assume that there are not very many people who are held back in results due to price is tunnel vision. To use me as a personal example, I went 50/50 win loss last season because I literally could not afford anything better than Charizard and then an incomplete MagneRock deck (no BTS, Rare Candy, the Magnezones were given to me by other players). Fast forward to Nats. I went 9-0 Swiss beating very good players in very several games (Sidney Brown, Jayson H, etc). What was the difference. Well, now I had one of the best decks of the format, tyRam, and could finally rely on game skill. I have gone on to win the only BR I played (with several of the better players the STL has in attendance). Since being able to afford a top tier deck, I am collectively 15-2. I am not saying that I am as good as Ness, Pooka, You, etc. But I was definitely held back by finances and the cost of the top decks. I would surmise that there are more people like than you think.

Second, I love the point you brought up about politicians. However, your example plays to my argument more than it plays to yours. They ARE playing to the majority of their constituents.

I would say that for most people this is a competitive card game. So, printing Yanmega's for cheap is good for them.

Secondly, the collectors are either children or are going to hold onto the cards after the rotation. So, for children, the low price is good. Some little kid is now going to be able to get their "favorite Pokemon, Yanmega" for cheap.

For the people who only collect and will hold the card after it is rotated, why in the world would you spend money to buy a card at the peak of it's value. If you are trying to complete a set, wait until after the rotation and get it cheaper. Well, Pokemon has brought that future cheap price into the present and those people don't have to wait anymore. This is, at worst. neutral for those people who are collecting merely to collect.

So, Pokemon has actively catered to two of the three demographics and not substantively harmed the third.

Now, there are players who bought the cards at their peak to play with them. Some of these players bought them recently. It is a bummer, but life's rough.

The real question is if there's anybody as big of a bug nerd as me that their favorite pokemon would be yanmega too.
 
The person who paid $120 last week for 4 yanmega has the same "competitive lifespan" as the player that buys them in these box sets. It's not so bad for the person whose had them a year, but the person who just got them definitely will have buyers remorse.

And, what about the people who saved since Nats to buy a set and decided to buy in the last several weeks, in order to use them at regionals. Where is their Price Vs. Competitive lifespan for those sets?

I guess, using your logic, Yanmega Prime should never have been reprinted, because there isn't a single time in a format when it wouldn't be ripping off someone who just bought some "the day before". :rolleyes:

With Regionals, Cities and STates JUST STARTING again, you cannot possibly believe the diminished "competitive life" of the card justifies a >75% price decrease.

The prices are made up by the secondary market, not TPCi. If players (and businesses) choose to market all their Yanmega Primes at $40 each, then the players shouldn't blame TPCi for providing an easier way to access the card, but blame the secondary market for asking such a ridiculous price for a card.

I won't get into the topic of how this is a TCG and how some cards should or should not be worth more than others.

But I will say that if the secondary market didn't want to get so much money for their cards, those who waited till "the day before" to buy them wouldn't have had to wait that long to 'save up' and wouldn't have paid so much for them.

Who's the bad guy now? The secondary market, in my opinion.

Seriously guys, TPCi is just providing access to a very popular card. They don't control the secondary market. It's the secondary market that decides to charge $40 for a Yanmega Prime...why? Because it can, and players will pay that much for them.

I'm sorry those people are going to lose the value of their Yanmega Primes. They were going to lose all it's value anyways in 9 months when they (most likely) rotate out of Modified.

It's not like everything else in the world retains it's full value forever. Cars depreciate in value greatly just by driving them off the lot. The dollar bill has depreciated over the last 20 years. "What about those people that just cashed in their gold the day before?"

Be happy that TPCi did it. Yes, some people are going to get burnt, but it benefits a lot more people than it burns. And all the other people not affected by it most likely (or should have) taken full advantage of having the card when it originally released and should have gotten plenty of value of it.

There's still plenty of valuable cards out there for the secondary market to overcharge the players for. Look at Tropical Beach. Oh wait, I thought people actually WANTED that card to be given out easier. "But what about the people that actually competed to make it to Worlds to receive the promo?" Ah, who cares, I don't have the card, and it's not fair! :lol::rolleyes::nonono:
 
Let' me just repeat for clarity, I am not as good as the elite players. I don't want any one misconstruing my point above.
 
Let' me just repeat for clarity, I am not as good as the elite players. I don't want any one misconstruing my point above.

Oh you just think your all that don't you! What a jerk!

Hahaha just kidding of course.

Seriously though, you, prime and jjkkl made some very good points as well. I will never be able to understand Ruiner's logic.
 
I am now SO glad I traded that Yanmega & Machamp prime fore some nice RHs while I could.
Yanmega, here I come!
 
Hey!

This is great news and all, but could you please link to the source?????

If you read the comments, I posted the source links.

But I wonder why no official statement on the Official Pokemon Website?

TPCi rarely posts about TCG repacks on Pokemon.com; heck, most TCG products aren't mentioned on Pokemon.com.

hasnthis been actually confirmed by the pokemon comlany us normally this sort of thing would come out in japan first?

Normally, these types of products aren't globally released; there are no new products inside of the packaging, aside from a possible change in holofoil pattern on the final evo card. Therefore, it would not be considered a brand new product, and thus not something released globally. Most likely, this will be released in some form across the Atlantic, but probably not across the Pacific (i.e. TPCi will probably release this in Europe and South Africa, but not in Japan and South Korea).
 
Good thing I didn't buy any Yanmegas! I wasn't planning on using them in the first place.
 
...Do you realize what you just said? Typhlosion/Reshiram and Reshiram/Typhlosion are the same deck, just opposite order of listing....

True :tongue: I was thinking of Tyranitar. Sorry :redface: Yes, TyRam is in full force in my area.

---------- Post added 11/01/2011 at 09:47 PM ----------

when he is set to lose over 75% of his card's value seemingly overnight.

I don't get this, even precious metals prices fluctuate. :confused: Sometimes gold is up, sometimes gold is down. When a new vein of gold is found, the price goes down.

The card has been out for a long enough time for the collector to have reaped whatever value there is in the collectible market, whether as seller, buyer or trader.

The "exclusivity" will simply shift to other cards that aren't included in this offer, like Megazone Prime, or Shaymin Prime or Pachi. It's not like the whole market is tanking, just 1 card out of several that are popular in the current meta. Don't see too many people playing Umbreon or Espeon Prime do you? Maybe Machamp Prime may see a slight uptick in popularity but the only real card is Yanmega Prime that has everyone excited. That's just one card.

I love Pokemon too but a Yanmega Prime card and a smile won't buy me a cup of coffee outside of hard core Pokemon circles.
 
I think that, being players, we do overestimate what percentage of the market we make up. I've had this argument used against me countless times when I try to make arguments for why organize play needs better support. Look at it this way, simply. Look at the # of registered POP IDs active in the past year. Then look at the # of overall sales made. As much as I hate to say it, those of us who really " must have the top tier cards " are NOT a majority. I've argued in favor of the push for improved organized play due to how it favors competitive players but also because it doesn't have any negative reprocussions on other parts of the consumer base. Plain and simple.

Now, a Yanmega reprinting isn't a huge deal. As others have said, the card likely will not remain tier 1 that much longer. The power creep is already beginning to catch up with it, and spoilers bode a bit iffy for it with the next few sets as well. I'm more offended by the message it sends to us as a whole. I went to league today, and I told the players there, and more people were offended that the Yanmegas were being reprinted after they got theres, then who were happy they could get them cheap. That isn't to say that a lot of people weren't overjoyed, but there were a lot of people aggrivated.

I've played a great number ( far too many for my own good really ) of collectible games, and the one thing I noticed, particularly amongst the ones that wound up failing, is that there has been a DIRECT correlation between the secondary market and the overall health of the game.

I'll use a good example. Lets look at Black and White packs. No one buys them anymore. I buy and sell packs I get for judging, or that I trade for from other players, and the hardest sets for me to move are Black and White, and Call of Legends. Call doesn't sell because it was a pretty awful set. Black and White has very limited value. Why? Because every good card out of it is reprinted. Zekrom and Reshiram have the standard foils, the full arts, the tins, and the alt art tins. FOUR printings! Emboar, Serperior and Samurott? Tinned. Almost nothing is worth more than a few bucks. Even Zoroark got a tin, and last I checked on Troll and Toad, was under 3 dollars. Heres always been my guideline, if I buy a box, I want to make sure I can at least come CLOSE to get that much money worth of cards. With Black and White, I can pick and choose pretty much any realistic print run for that box and not come close to making back my investment. THAT is a bad sign. At that point, why buy product? Just buy off Troll and Toad. In order to justify a purchase of packs which now sit at over 4 dollars ( and the most I can get for BW packs now is 2 dollars at local tourneys ) there has to be at least a certain degree of return on them. So yeah, when I'm choosing to pay 4 dollars for a pack, I DO expect cards of SOME sustainable value, otherwise I'll just buy them FAR CHEAPER from sites online. It got to a point where the same issue really began to bog down games such as Heroclix too, where the overall value of the figures simply made buying the product sealed was just economic malpractice. I mean, Pokemon is looking pretty bleak with this. BW is an awful set value wise, NOT because the cards are bad, it is LOADED with great playable cards for this format, but because the cards have been reprinted to hell and back by this point and oversaturated into the market. Emerging Powers isn't too valuable of a set either, because with the current rarity scheme and set sizes, its too easy to get all of the cards. You may think this is " good for the game " but it is not: When cards become to cheap, it stops being worthwhile to buy the product. If you give me the 144 dollars ( before tax ) that is MSRP for a box of Pokemon cards, and let me choose a potential cardpool I could open, theres no way I can't just spend that 144 and do twice as well, if not more, buy just buying singles. Now, the 144 isn't what people wind up paying for boxes, as I can generally get them at a bit under 90, but even then? Why? I'm not getting close to 90 dollars worth of cards out of a box of Black and White. Any idea why Triumphant packs were SELLING OUT, with vendors scrambling to get more only for those to sell out at Nationals? BECAUSE WOW! YOU GUESSED IT! THE CARDS IN THE PACKS HAVE VALUE. Sets like HGSS were 3/10 and NOT MOVING. When sets contain valuable cards, those sets SELL. When sets have all of their best cards devalued to being less then the price of the booster pack ( pretty much BW...outside of full arts, i dont think a card is over 5 dollars in that set. ) they don't sell as much.
 
Normally I'm not a hater but I'm hatin'. Not because they made Yanmega easy to get but that there's still 10$ uncommons like Catcher and 20$ rares such as Pachirisu and Shaymin.

And then there's Tropical Beach....
 
For those of you who are shocked about the price drop...Don't be. Yanmega Prime has been on a steady decline since the end of Battle Roads, and actually hit the $10-$20 neighborhood before this box was even announced.

Also, for those of you wanting to dump stock: there's still time left. Unless someone gets a hold of early stock at Wal-Mart or Target, several players at Regionals will NEED this card.
 
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