I partly agree, Most of the time the only error I see in games being played is simply a matter of RTFC, which many players should be able to do, even if they feel it is too much trouble to learn a set of rules laid out in approximately two sheets of A4 paper. In my opinion the punishment should reflect the severity of the error (usually a caution, but repeated offenses will increase it). As said, they are just guidelines and, should your head judge wish to divert from those given in the PG, he is free to do so. Not obiding to the rules with intent is IMHO an act of unsportsmanlike conduct and will definitely be addressed with the player.
"Prize Swap" Should It Be A Rule or Should It be Banned!!!
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I partly agree, Most of the time the only error I see in games being played is simply a matter of RTFC, which many players should be able to do, even if they feel it is too much trouble to learn a set of rules laid out in approximately two sheets of A4 paper. In my opinion the punishment should reflect the severity of the error (usually a caution, but repeated offenses will increase it). As said, they are just guidelines and, should your head judge wish to divert from those given in the PG, he is free to do so. Not obiding to the rules with intent is IMHO an act of unsportsmanlike conduct and will definitely be addressed with the player.
Gym Leader Blaine
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bulbasnore said:
From what I head it was assigned to a player that when he went to shuffle his opponents deck, he picked the deck up, flipped it over, and started to go through his opponents deck to see what he had in it and was playing. This is what I had hear was the reason for it.
Placing of prizes before the start of play is the responsibility of both players. Both players should ensure that each has placed their prizes.
Why not simplify?
If someone is obviously cheating, like hiding cards in the lap kind of thing, then DQ them on the spot.
A procedural error should warrant a warning for the first offence, a game loss for the second, and a DQ for the third.
This isn't the league, this is a tournament. If you can't help making the same mistake three times in one tournament then maybe you are not ready to play at this level.
Why not simplify?
If someone is obviously cheating, like hiding cards in the lap kind of thing, then DQ them on the spot.
A procedural error should warrant a warning for the first offence, a game loss for the second, and a DQ for the third.
This isn't the league, this is a tournament. If you can't help making the same mistake three times in one tournament then maybe you are not ready to play at this level.
SuperWooper
New Member
Adv1sor said:
If by procedural error you mean not counting the cards in your hand before Stevens-ing, or not removing damage counters before using Wonderhit, then you are absolutely right. Nintendo needs to come down HARD on people who can't follow the rules.
As for not placing prizes, it should go like this:
1) Automatic Game Loss
Period.
~w00per
For both players?SuperWooper said:
Because it is both player's responsibility!
Why are you, as the opponent, allowing the other player to draw and play cards while there is no prize pile out for them?
This is why it is a caution at first. Because you should catch it as well!
Look, this error happens to everyone at some point. If a players keeps doing it, then that caution escalates to warnings and even game losses.
But to just go straight to a game loss?
C'mon!
SuperWooper
New Member
Yes. A game loss. It's that simple. That will really teach people not to forget. It will make them paranoid about placing their prizes. They will not forget again. If it makes them loose a spot in the t8, I don't think they deserved it if they couldn't remember to put out their prizes. =/
Ouch! I think a game loss is severe!
I have heard that it was BOTH players responsibility to make sure that the game is set-up properly prior to starting, therefore if one player forgets, the opponent should remind him/her instead of eagerly awaiting for him/her to draw a card so that the opponent can claim a win!
I think we've all forgotten to put out our prizes at one time or another -- especially when there are so many distractions... However, if someone does this habitually, that's a different matter altogether.
I have heard that it was BOTH players responsibility to make sure that the game is set-up properly prior to starting, therefore if one player forgets, the opponent should remind him/her instead of eagerly awaiting for him/her to draw a card so that the opponent can claim a win!
I think we've all forgotten to put out our prizes at one time or another -- especially when there are so many distractions... However, if someone does this habitually, that's a different matter altogether.
SuperWooper
New Member
Team Cook said:
It shouldn't be both players responsibility. It should be the responsibility of the person who needs to put out the prizes. You can't have somebody else save you from penalties. A Game Loss is severe, but it's necessary. Nintendo, after Nationals especially, really needs to bring the foot down on this kind of stuff. Little mistakes like this are not something that the best of the best players make, and they're the ones who you want to see in the t8.
Not placing prizes then Oracling was something too many players got away with at Nationals. I heard of several cases of this from my friends alone. This is going to keep happening if Nintendo doesn't bring the foot down on these players, HARD! Adv1sor's suggestion in the other post like this was excellent: for errors like not counting cards in hand before Stevens: 1) Warning then 2) Game Loss. I'd actually put a harsher penalty in the number one spot, but it's his opinion.
Not placing prizes is UNEXCUSABLE. I've never forgotten to put my prizes down in tournament play! I don't see how you could miss this. Before every game, mentally go through a checklist. Roll to see who will go first is the primary thing. Draw your opening hand next, account for mulligans and such, place prizes, flip over active basic, flip over benched basics if any, begin game.
Just focus on this mental checklist, or something like it, and you'll have no problem. IMO, players who forget to put down prizes aren't deserving of winning the tournament, much less t8, so give 'em the game loss and ensure that they won't. The second time they don't put down their prizes,
DISQUALIFY THEM. They have no right to be playing in a competitive tournament at that point.
Strict? Absolutely. Necessary? Absolutely.
~w00per
Master_Prof_Juggie
New Member
Giday
It's BOTH players job to make sure the prizes are put out.
If a player forgets ... Caution for BOTH players !!
Repeated offences ... step up the penalties.
Game Loss ... way to severe !!
When the pressure is on .. it's easy to forget them.
As for the Prize Swap penalty ... i like it, but it needs to be carefully handled / issued.
I totally agree with the suggestion above & this is my suggested Penalty Levels
You may ask ... why the 2 different DQ levels ... The DCI has them & i agree with the need for 2 levels.
For example ... you're playing in the 1st round of playoffs & make another mistake, which for some silly reason you''ve done a number times already & it results in a DQ. Should you lose out on the prize because of it ?? I say no.
Now i know it's unlikely to happen that exact way, but i'm sure you can imagine the need for the level.
The second level is for the more serious problems ... Cheating (proven), Fighting, Fraud, Bribery ...
It also means the Head Judge is the ONLY person dealing with the more serious penalties, ones that will effect the players tournament result & as the head judge, something for which they are soley responsable for.
It's BOTH players job to make sure the prizes are put out.
If a player forgets ... Caution for BOTH players !!
Repeated offences ... step up the penalties.
Game Loss ... way to severe !!
When the pressure is on .. it's easy to forget them.
As for the Prize Swap penalty ... i like it, but it needs to be carefully handled / issued.
I totally agree with the suggestion above & this is my suggested Penalty Levels
- Caution
- Warning (Minimum starting level for Nationals & Worlds)
- Prize Draw - 1 prize either taken or put out (Penalty Guidelines to dictate how this is done, NOT the players or judge at the time)
- Prize Swap - 1 prize taken & 1 prize put out
- Game Loss (Head Judge ONLY issues)
- Match Loss (Head Judge ONLY issues)
- DQ with Prizes (Head Judge ONLY issues)
- DQ NO Prizes ... ONLY used for extreme cases. (Head Judge ONLY issues)
You may ask ... why the 2 different DQ levels ... The DCI has them & i agree with the need for 2 levels.
For example ... you're playing in the 1st round of playoffs & make another mistake, which for some silly reason you''ve done a number times already & it results in a DQ. Should you lose out on the prize because of it ?? I say no.
Now i know it's unlikely to happen that exact way, but i'm sure you can imagine the need for the level.
The second level is for the more serious problems ... Cheating (proven), Fighting, Fraud, Bribery ...
It also means the Head Judge is the ONLY person dealing with the more serious penalties, ones that will effect the players tournament result & as the head judge, something for which they are soley responsable for.
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Glumanda
Rulings Compendium Translator
I think the penalty ladder should be:
Caution - Warning - Prize Swap (best-of-1)/Game Loss (best-of-3) - Match Loss - DQ.
At local tournaments give a caution for forgetting prizes, if nothing important happened, at high level events, give a warning. If something important happened (e.g. Oracle), give a PS/GL and a warning to the opponent. It´s correct, that both players are responsible for maintaining the correct game state, but every player has a higher responsibility for laying their own prizes than the opponent.
Every player who could prevent a PS/GL-awarded game-play error and missed it should receive a warning and repeated offenses should escalate in an appropriate way. We do not want to educate players to wait until the opponent has the PS/GL for sure. Instead, we want the players to play a fair game.
Caution - Warning - Prize Swap (best-of-1)/Game Loss (best-of-3) - Match Loss - DQ.
At local tournaments give a caution for forgetting prizes, if nothing important happened, at high level events, give a warning. If something important happened (e.g. Oracle), give a PS/GL and a warning to the opponent. It´s correct, that both players are responsible for maintaining the correct game state, but every player has a higher responsibility for laying their own prizes than the opponent.
Every player who could prevent a PS/GL-awarded game-play error and missed it should receive a warning and repeated offenses should escalate in an appropriate way. We do not want to educate players to wait until the opponent has the PS/GL for sure. Instead, we want the players to play a fair game.
SW: It comes down to this, similar to a legal term, the "clean hands doctrine". Basically it means you cannot go to Court (or in this case, match loss or other severe penalty) if you weren't clean or pure in the actions that led to the lawsuit (or the Judge being called over). It is BOTH players responsibility to make sure that the set up is done properly. Sure, you have a greater resp. to set up your own side 1st, but you also should watch the opponent. Why allow the oppo. to use Oracle, Masterball, etc etc on their 1st or 2nd turn, receive an advantage that cannot be reversed when it takes a simple reminder to place prizes at the start?? I think that one of the current threads talks about "sportsmanship" at the Nat'ls. I can think of no clearer case of "good sportsmanship" than to correct an opponent's omission of placing prizes prior to the 1st play og the match. Everything is reversible at that point. To let it go further, then you both made mistakes and should pay for it. (albeit at differing levels of punishment depending on who gained the greater advantage)
Keith
Keith
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