Rare Candy Question...

[TrueGamerX]

I believe you are all looking at this the wrong way. Rare Candy DOESN'T allow you to skip an evolution going from Basic to Stage 2 or from Baby to Stage 1. It only allows you to evolve into the Pokémon that evolves from it. Charizard doesn't evolve from Charmander. It evolves from Charmeleon.

The reason the card even says Stage 2 is because there are Stage 1 cards that you can treat as Basic Pokémon, such as: Kabuto, Lileep, Anorith, and Omanyte.

I beleive this was the real intent of the card. Thus, it stands to reason that this card allows you to evolve when you can't normally evolve, like: the turn you played it, your first turn, an effect of a Pokémon Power, Attack, of Trainer card prevents you from doing so.

Fish King is right. 100% IMO

 

[mtjimmer]

"This counts as evolving that Pokemon."

1. Removes Special Conditions.
2. Counts as; is considered; equals. No first turn evolution, cannot evolve a Pokemon that was just played.

As an aside, since it doesn't say it breaks the first turn evolution rule, it can't. Quit your dreamin'.

If you want to start a discussion on Baby Pokemon and Rare Candy - it's...interesting as well.

The new Pichu doesn't evolve into Pikachu normally - it's got a Poke-Power, Baby Evolution. This part is kind of difficult to wrap your head around it...but it does make sense.

You play Rare Candy on Wurmple. You have Dustox in your hand. How do you know it is the Stage 2? In your head, you think 1 of 2 ways...either up the chain, or down the chain.

Wumrple -> Cascoon -> Dustox; or,
Dustox from Cascoon from Wurmple.

The only place it defines what it evolves from his Dustox down, correct? That's how you've learned it from looking at the cards. (One of the differences of coming from *playing* the TCG or GBA.)

Getting back to the question at hand, if you go down the chain...Raichu ex from Pikachu....it stops. If you go up the chain, it starts at Pichu (if you have Pichu). How does Raichu ex know that it evolves from Pichu?

That's the logic part. The answer is: You cannot Rare Candy Pichu into Raichu ex. Raichu ex doesn't think it should evolve from Pichu - Pichu now only becomes Pikachu on a technicality (Poke-Power).

Great discussion.

MTJimmer

***
Jimmer Sivertsen
Pokemon USA, Inc.

 

[Kyogre]

Great, thanks mtjimmer. That will clear up a lot of issues. But let me get this strait. Can you at-least use rare candy to evolve Squirtle into Blastoise?

 

[Prime]

If it does allow evolution on first turn then it should be banned. I mean come on, it's TOO broken. Seriously, the game was made to not be first turn evolve. They took away the retreat rule. Now they change another BIG aspect of the game. What's next? You can lay all the energy you want down every turn? Bah

 

[Broken Lizard]

I too hope that The Fish King is right, but I think he may not be.

If we read the text on 'Energy Evolution' Eevee, it is pretty much the same as that on Rare Candy.

Since Energy Evolution allows Eevee to evolve on the first turn, I'd argue that Rare Candy will work on the first turn as well.

YES, WE NEED A CONDUIT FOR OFFICIAL RULINGS!!!

 

[Kyogre]

I think that is best to go with MTJimmer's ruling on this one. I mean he is from Pokemon USA. The way to look at it is that if it doesn't say that you can break the rules then you can't.

Thanks to the Fish King though, now I am not sure what even the true intent of this card is. Is it basically an EON Breeder?

 

[yoshi1001]

"yoshi - you read too much in my comment about it being like Giovanni - Giovanni breaks the normal Evolving rule. Rare Candy breaks the normal Evolving rule. In that way they are similar. Placing a Stage 2 on top of a Basic breaks the normal Rules of Evolving."

True, but more accurately, each breaks one of the rules of evolving. Thusly, one has to wonder whether it breaks all rules of evolution. This is relatively uncharted waters, since virtually all similar cases involve searching the deck for cards through the use of a power or attack, not a trainer card, and also draw from your deck, not your hand. As those of you who follow the rules situation know, even minute differences can drastically change how they are ruled.

So, anyway, analyzing the structure of the three cards I outlined earlier, it becomes apparent that there are significant similarities and differences between the cards. So, the question becomes, which card does Rare Candy most resemble? It reads a lot like a rewording of Pokemon Breeder, which cannot be used to evolve first turn, but it also resembles many evolution attacks, which do allow evolution on the first turn. So it appears we have an intent/literal interpetion conflict. We also may have a broken v. non-broken conflict-it's too early to tell.

It's very difficult to resolve an intent/literal interpetation conflict, particularly when both sides claim to be properly divining both.

I'll leave you with that.

Mewtwo: Will Steve solve the problem of the ambiguous Rare Candy? Will Misty ever get a new bike? Will Brock ever get a date? Stay tuned-same Pokegym time, same Pokegym station.

Argh...remind me never to let you watch reruns again.

Drat, MT Jimmer beat me to the solution.

Mewtwo: Good. This was approaching a 5-page paper.

 

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Well, since there is a "Master Trainer" title under mtjimmer's screen name, we now have our answer. Since he now makes the rulings, just like MTM used to, the ruling on Rare Candy is no breaking of the rules of evolution. No first turn evolutions. No evolving on the turn played. You certainly could use it like you used to use Breeder, so a Basic could go to a Stage 2, as long as that Basic could evolve normally. It can't be used on Babies, since the Evolved Pokemon cannot see the Baby as it looks back along its evolution chain. Too bad on that one.

BDS

 

[Orange Soda]

Thus, it stands to reason that this card allows you to evolve when you can't normally evolve, like: the turn you played it, your first turn, an effect of a Pokémon Power, Attack, of Trainer card prevents you from doing so.

The first thing I thought when I saw the card text was "Hey, this thing can override Fossil Aerodactyl!", so I agree with you on that point, except for the first turn (since mtjimmer already said no to that). However...

I believe you are all looking at this the wrong way. Rare Candy DOESN'T allow you to skip an evolution going from Basic to Stage 2 or from Baby to Stage 1.

I'm gunna have to disagree with you there.

Rare Candy:
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)

 

[Prof. Douglas Zuver]

"This counts as evolving that Pokemon."

1. Removes Special Conditions.
2. Counts as; is considered; equals. No first turn evolution, cannot evolve a Pokemon that was just played.

As an aside, since it doesn't say it breaks the first turn evolution rule, it can't. Quit your dreamin'.

If you want to start a discussion on Baby Pokemon and Rare Candy - it's...interesting as well.

The new Pichu doesn't evolve into Pikachu normally - it's got a Poke-Power, Baby Evolution. This part is kind of difficult to wrap your head around it...but it does make sense.

You play Rare Candy on Wurmple. You have Dustox in your hand. How do you know it is the Stage 2? In your head, you think 1 of 2 ways...either up the chain, or down the chain.

Wumrple -> Cascoon -> Dustox; or,
Dustox from Cascoon from Wurmple.

The only place it defines what it evolves from his Dustox down, correct? That's how you've learned it from looking at the cards. (One of the differences of coming from *playing* the TCG or GBA.)

Getting back to the question at hand, if you go down the chain...Raichu ex from Pikachu....it stops. If you go up the chain, it starts at Pichu (if you have Pichu). How does Raichu ex know that it evolves from Pichu?

That's the logic part. The answer is: You cannot Rare Candy Pichu into Raichu ex. Raichu ex doesn't think it should evolve from Pichu - Pichu now only becomes Pikachu on a technicality (Poke-Power).

Great discussion.

MTJimmer

***
Jimmer Sivertsen
Pokemon USA, Inc.

Thanks for the Ruling

 

[Mr. Grass]

This ruling brings up a couple questions for me:
1. Are all the older cards that have the "counts as evolving" text also not able to break the first turn/inplay rule? So would I have to wait a turn before I could Chain Reaction/Energy Evolve/Emerge?
2. If stage 1's can't go onto babies with Rare Candy, and Rare Candy doesn't break the first turn/in play evolving rule, why does it mention Stage 1's?

 

[Orange Soda]

2. If stage 1's can't go onto babies with Rare Candy, and Rare Candy doesn't break the first turn/in play evolving rule, why does it mention Stage 1's?

I think it's to get around things like Fossil Aerodactyl. He never specifically said yes to it, but it's the only reason I can think of that Jimmer didn't specifically say no to.

 

[Gym Leader Blaine]

I think you should be able to use the card to be able to do a first turn evolve for the reason that that it is a trainer card, which from the way that I read it doesn't say you cant do it. I look at it like the evee card that lets you evolve to another form of evee when a energy is attach. Just my two cents. And if you can I can think of some pretty fun decks to make it with. One thing you have to remember is you will need this card and the evolution card at the start of the game for the combo that eveyone is wondering if it can be done or not.

 

[dkates]

Going back to Mr. Grass's last comment, I remember that previous rulings have allowed Chain Reacion, Energy Evolution, and Emerge to break the one-turn evolution rule. If I've read the Compendium correctly, any card that causes evolution to work differently allows that rule to be broken unless it says otherwise.

 

[Kanga Da Roo]

Ok so if you guys dont believe that this gets around the first turn evo rule then what good is the card??

Give examples on how this card is used??

I can see the point with the baby to Stage 1 BUT i still think that it still can evolve Charmander to Charmeleon first turn.

I dont believe itll can pull a breeder but atleast to a Stage 1 Evo first turn.


WE NEED A SCAN OF THE FREAKING CARD!!!!

 

[dkates]

IMO, as written, it does get around the first turn evo rule, although I think that makes it exceptionally broken. I have explained my reasons in other posts on this thread. What should be true and what is true are often not one and the same.

 

[Prime]

MTJimmer said the ruling himself and I agree 100%. The card never said that it broke the rule so it doens't break the rule. Cards like HB Venusaur and Blane did say that they broke the rule so they did. Also Eevee was a wizards card. There is no reason for Nintendo to have to go back to re-rule each card that WotC ruled.

 

[Mr. Grass]

The old cards may have been produced under Wizards but originally they came from TPC. And "It's an old card" is a sad excuse to ignore old rulings. A lot of the new rulings we have are based on older rulings. If the new cards are truly going to be compatible with old cards we need rulings that apply to all of the cards. Previous rulings with cards like Eevee and Koga's Kakuna have set the precedent that "counts as evolving" only means the cards trigger effects that occur when evolving (Chain Reaction) and are not limited by the first turn/in play restriction. This new ruling changes the meaning of "counts as evolving", so we should examine the older cards and see if we can determine a difference between them and Rare Candy. Otherwise we currently have conflicting definitons of what "counts as evolving"

 

[yoshi1001]

You guys are forgetting:

There is no total logic,
It's just a simple game,
but everybody's out there for the glory and fame.

 

[DaytonGymLeader]

Rare Candy:

Choose 1 of your basic Pokemon in play. If you have a stage 1 or stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in you hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon)

I would agree with BDS first ruling that you would follow the normal rules of evolution, since the card states This counts as evolving that Pokemon

The reason for the the stage 1 or stage 2 wording is to allow you to evolve Raichu or Raichu EX from a Pichu, and in the future other "Baby" Pokemon into the stage 1 evolution line. Baby Pokemon are no longer Baby Pokemon they are now Basic Pokemon and in the case of Pichu and Raichu you could use Rare Candy to evolve and skip the Pikachu stage.

That is my 2 cents anyway

I agree and don't. Look at the "baby" cards in this set. They don't have the text that shows what they evolve in to. Hopefully this is a templating problem that will be fixed very shortly. Technically, the babies can't evolve unless the text is present, unless there's a blurb in the Sandstorm Rule Book that says so. I don't think we can just take the WotC cards as precedent

I also tend to agree that this card mimics Breeder and essentially replaces Breeder in these sets. I agree that this card does not allow evolution on Turn 1 because of the text that says this counts as Evolving.