Sentiments after Nationals

[hueglin]

I think if we left the World's structure as is, yet gave the American players another invite only event (no trips necessary) to say an STS type thing, having 128 players in each division, between nat's and worlds, that it would ease alot of the pain we feel from how hard it is to get into worlds over here. 128 players could feasibly be finished in 1 day. I know this is a heck of alot to ask of POP to actually get together, but it would solve alot of "problems".

This kind of thing I think would really make alot of people state side happy, since they got into an exclusive event. Besides, you can't tell me that there are truly more than 128 elite, World Class players in the US.

It sounds as though you feel the US Nationals does not do a good job of deciding which American players are the best in their divisions. If I understand you correctly, part of the problem, as you perceive it, is that some unknown or new player can get in and donk a veteran player, or a veteran player can just have a few bad starts.

The way I see it though, the same kind of thing happens in other events/sports all the time. Its just part of how games work - some days the stars are shining on someone else. You just hope it isn't on the one day that happens to be the National or World Championships.

 

[baby mario]

There are other World Championships that allocate invites based on a nation as a single entity, not based on population. The Olympics for example: the maximum number of entries permitted for individual events is three per country.

Some might argue that it is unfair to US, Chinese and Russian athletes that they have a much more competitive environment to compete in and that many very good athletes from these countries do not get a chance to go to the Olympics.

This is a great comparison imo.

I remember being told at Worlds last year that it was the 'Pokemon Oympics'.

 

[bullados]

I have no real interest in commenting on the allocation of Worlds invites. Rather, I'd like to touch on a subject that was dropped a couple of pages ago.

Battle Roads.

From my point of view, the point of these series is to bring high level tournament play to areas that have new OP experience. Removing these events removes the ability of local organizers and league leaders to actively grow their areas. They'd have to rely solely on their Leagues to grow attendance.

Now, Leagues aren't necessarily a bad thing. They can be quite useful for starting a new area. However, there comes a point when the players want to move on to something a little bit more competitive. There are a lot of players out there that simply cannot afford to play in paid weekly tourneys. For them, Battle Roads are the equivalent of Worlds, as they are the only completely free competition that has reasonable prizes, is structured like a championship, and gives them a chance to compete with the best that they know in a single event.

For my situation specifically, I worked for a League for 3 years with basically zero true tournament support. League attendance basically stagnated to about half a dozen regulars and maybe 2-4 people that come once, and then never see the game again, simply because they can't see the value of either playing in the League for peanuts or paying for the tourney and financing the best players' prizes.

However, once I was allowed to start running Battle Roads, two things happened.

First, two new Leagues sprung up in my area virtually overnight. One was started to encourage kids to do something productive with their time. It's geared mostly towards the younger player, the LO is able to sell them product at a reasonable (non-retail) price, and there are no weekly tournaments due to time restraints. The other was in response to the original League in the area. I try and gear it towards newer players, but everybody around wants weekly tournaments, which I am *more* than happy to provide. Recently, I held an impromptu RR Release event using some of the product that I got from a Chicago area store. Had 11 people play, and at least 7-9 more who just came to pick up product for less than retail. Both Leagues are growing pretty much weekly. The former has grown from basically two people into about a dozen regulars and another dozen or two people who come once a month or so. The latter, in 6 months, has grown to about a dozen people weekly, not including involved parents, and about another dozen or so that are regular but not weekly players.

I could not have done this growth without Battle Roads. I have many players who will testify that they would have quit the game if there were no Premier level tournaments in the area. Local events can only take the game so far. However, having just four Premier events in the last year, the area has grown from something of a backwater League area into something that's semi-competitive.

Also, I could not get anything higher than a Battle Road without tremendous support from PTOs that I know. BRs are events where both PCI and the local organizers get to feel each other out. They are ways to gain trust from both sides. Battle Roads are relatively risk-free for PCI because the prize support is the way that it is. They still take great pains to ensure that they give BRs to those they believe can handle Premier events. However, they can experiment a little bit more on new areas with BRs that they can't really experiment on with other events due to risk and expense.

I firmly believe that Battle Roads are the backbone of the Organized Play tournament season. They allow high level play in areas that wouldn't normally be able to get Premier support for whatever reason. They give local players a glimpse into competitive play while still somewhat sheltering them from the major bullies. The players that come to BRs are generally those that are most interested in OP growth, have tremendous SOTG, and are more than willing to help those that look like they need help.

If you remove Battle Roads from the tournament season, you completely stunt the growth of the game on a local level, you encourage those that enjoy the game to stagnate with the decks that they have already built, and you basically say that Premier events are too exclusive for everybody other than the elite.

None of these messages should ever be conveyed on any level for a game that still has tremendous growth potential.

Keep Battle Roads. Keep them small. Keep them accessible. To do anything else would be to deny growth to areas that deserve it.

 

[Prime]

But that still doesn't really answer the question of why the US isn't receiving more invites? They don't even have to be trips- just invites. The US gaining more invites won't make it any more or less difficult to get an invite in Europe. But the way it is now, the US is just really hurt with how few invites we are getting.

i think the main culprit of this is a non-growing worlds.

Worlds is 128 people in each age group, correct me if I am wrong.

We had 300 new players at nationals this year, more than twice the size of worlds.

USA sees growth every year, yet the number of invites does not increase. I think the main reason is because the number of players (total) in worlds is not increasing.

I feel this is a good thing. I don't want to see a worlds that grows in players every year. Before we know it, it would rival nationals in size, and that would take a lot of prestige off the game if 500 usa players got to play in it.

I think that is the main reason.

From my point of view, the point of these series is to bring high level tournament play to areas that have new OP experience. Removing these events removes the ability of local organizers and league leaders to actively grow their areas. They'd have to rely solely on their Leagues to grow attendance.

Great post!

If that is the goal of Battle Roads, then I feel they are partially a success, but can be improved upon.

I agree that Battle Roads do bring real competitive tournaments to an area. That is something Battle Roads do accomplish. League tournaments can be fun, but you won't have people coming in from out of the area to play. Battle Roads brings competitive tournament scenes to that area, at least for that one day.

That leads me to my first problem. They are only held twice a year in each location. I'm not being greedy, I'm just saying that Battle Roads could keep players interested in competitive play throughout the year if they were held more often. I don't know if this would be possible, but I would like to see it.

My second problem is the prizes, or the prize card. I don't feel the trophy card is a good prize for a event like battle roads if we are thinking of battle roads as an event that brings competitive playing to an area. In my opinion, the better prize card would be a foil of a very playable trainer. Give out foil Roseanne's Researches, or Bebe's Searches, or Cynthia's Feelings. Heck, give out a BR-stamped Claydol or Uxie. Those cards would let experienced players feel happy because it is a special looking good card (they love RH trainers, don't they?) and let new players feel happy because it might be a card they don't have a lot of.

My third comment would be to keep the k-value of the event as it is; small but influenctial. I feel it gives the event a decent reason to play if your looking to gain rating points. It gives that class of player a reason to play.

I think it would be fantastic if TOs could run Battle Roads throughout the year in their area/s. They do promote competitive play. I do wish there were more of them, possibly double what we have now. I would love to see a new Battle Road show up with each new set (every 3 months). And since TOs can run them, I would hope more players would try to become TOs and start running events so they could take some pressure off of their local PTOs shoulders.

I think Bullados's idea of Battle Roads is the closest to what BRs are now. Entry-level is not what they are, as I've explained before. Neither is 'new player friendly'.

 

[DarthPika]

I think it's time that PUI and co wake up and realize that yes, the game is growing rapidly, and that yes, worlds really needs to be a bigger event.

What never fails to bug me is how invites are being given to these European/X other country with small player base players, who win their 20 person nats with out Claydol or simply get a rating invite EVERY stupid year, when it's near impossible for me to get an invite even though I work my butt off trying to get one.

No offence to European players, but I really don't think most really understand just how hard it is over here. I see the exact same people getting invites over in Europe every single year, dominating their few competitors. Yes, we do have some of that, but it's amazing and sad how many really good players are missing out on worlds invites.

Furthermore, why the heck is worlds by country? I don't care what country wins, but what player wins. I couldn't care less where he/she came from. I want worlds to be the best of the best, not the junk we have now. I want to go to worlds to win it for ME. The US doesn't give me anything, and I really don't care. Call me German if you want, just give me a stupid invite and let me play. I really think that's what most US players want. It gets so tireing to hear how worlds shouldn't be swamped with US players because that would give the US an unfair advantage. :/ We have more players, naturally we have more good players. Telling those players that they can't play just because we have to keep everythign even with countries with half our player base invite wise just isn't fair.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but it just gets really depressing trying so hard to get an invite with the knowledge that you'll probably never get one, watching as other players in other countries litteraly get it with out even trying.

 

[baby mario]

Sorry if I offended anyone, but it just gets really depressing trying so hard to get an invite with the knowledge that you'll probably never get one, watching as other players in other countries litteraly get it with out even trying.

Yeah, that is quite offensive.

Dunno where you got that information from. If it was from a European, they are just being a jerk and trying to show off.

 

[XYZ_Sniper]

I think it's time that PUI and co wake up and realize that yes, the game is growing rapidly, and that yes, worlds really needs to be a bigger event.

What never fails to bug me is how invites are being given to these European/X other country with small player base players, who win their 20 person nats with out Claydol or simply get a rating invite EVERY stupid year, when it's near impossible for me to get an invite even though I work my butt off trying to get one.

No offence to European players, but I really don't think most really understand just how hard it is over here. I see the exact same people getting invites over in Europe every single year, dominating their few competitors. Yes, we do have some of that, but it's amazing and sad how many really good players are missing out on worlds invites.

Furthermore, why the heck is worlds by country? I don't care what country wins, but what player wins. I couldn't care less where he/she came from. I want worlds to be the best of the best, not the junk we have now. I want to go to worlds to win it for ME. The US doesn't give me anything, and I really don't care. Call me German if you want, just give me a stupid invite and let me play. I really think that's what most US players want. It gets so tireing to hear how worlds shouldn't be swamped with US players because that would give the US an unfair advantage. :/ We have more players, naturally we have more good players. Telling those players that they can't play just because we have to keep everythign even with countries with half our player base invite wise just isn't fair.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but it just gets really depressing trying so hard to get an invite with the knowledge that you'll probably never get one, watching as other players in other countries litteraly get it with out even trying.

Hong Kong was given 1 slot invitation to worlds for nationals. 1 slot. Im not even sure if it is payed or not. And from my knowing, all of the Hong Kong participants Grinded in last year with the exception of my freind *who scooped because he got bored* So im sorry, your logic is particially flawed towards other countries.

Also, Not caring on what country you play for? I personally think thats a buncha crud. Would you play for a country that you have never even visited? Im pretty sure putting a country on top would have them gain more respect in the Pokemon Community. And if you havent figured out, you have to incorperate 2 people in this game to even play test. And you probably test within your country till and inter-contental tournament.

 

[yoshi1001]

Furthermore, why the heck is worlds by country?

Because virtually every other world competition draws people that way. It makes it much easier to plan when you have a better idea of where and how many.

 

[Prime]

XYZ_sniper, I don't doubt DarthPika feels that way. There are many players that see Worlds as just another tournament, another chance to show that they are the better player. In a game with luck and matchups and stuff, how can any tournament show that one person is the best player?

It is very disappointing to see the entire idea of Worlds thrown out the window. Why even call it worlds? Just call it, "mega battle zone". Call it something lame, because obviously players don't care what the idea behind the tournament is.

I don't want to see Worlds grow every year. Worlds is supposed to be special. Sure the invite scheme is weird, I am not arguing it isn't. But I do feel that Worlds should stay small, regardless of how big other countries are getting. If the event kept growing every year, and inviting more and more players every year, what would be so special about it? It would just be another tournament near the end of the season. Whoo. /sarcasm.

 

[ApachePrime]

XYZ_sniper, I don't doubt DarthPika feels that way. There are many players that see Worlds as just another tournament, another chance to show that they are the better player. In a game with luck and matchups and stuff, how can any tournament show that one person is the best player?

It is very disappointing to see the entire idea of Worlds thrown out the window. Why even call it worlds? Just call it, "mega battle zone". Call it something lame, because obviously players don't care what the idea behind the tournament is.

I don't want to see Worlds grow every year. Worlds is supposed to be special. Sure the invite scheme is weird, I am not arguing it isn't. But I do feel that Worlds should stay small, regardless of how big other countries are getting. If the event kept growing every year, and inviting more and more players every year, what would be so special about it? It would just be another tournament near the end of the season. Whoo. /sarcasm.

Worlds growing isn't a bad thing, but I definitely agree with Prime here. Last year at worls the Grinder was HUGE. League play was nothing less than AMAZING. Watching the matches that were going on was like a real sporting tournament. The main event should definitely stay the same size. League play, The Grinder, Spectator Activities? Those should all grow with the game. I doubt I'll be able to make it to Worlds this year, but I'm sure the Grinder will be the biggest ever, again. I'm sure the league play will have people walking out with much more than they were expecting, and I'm sure the main event will be worthy of being televised.

I don't think it would have the same impact if the tournament were bigger. Some countries are only getting one or two spots. Why should more people = more invites? More people should mean more spectators and bigger crowds cheering on the best!

 

[DarthPika]

Hong Kong was given 1 slot invitation to worlds for nationals. 1 slot. Im not even sure if it is payed or not. And from my knowing, all of the Hong Kong participants Grinded in last year with the exception of my freind *who scooped because he got bored* So im sorry, your logic is particially flawed towards other countries.

Also, Not caring on what country you play for? I personally think thats a buncha crud. Would you play for a country that you have never even visited? Im pretty sure putting a country on top would have them gain more respect in the Pokemon Community. And if you havent figured out, you have to incorperate 2 people in this game to even play test. And you probably test within your country till and inter-contental tournament.

No, I really don't care which country it is. I just would like a shot to play in it. What fun is it to play the game with the ultimate goal to get to worlds when you know you'll probably never get it due to where you live? I'm not saying this just about the US, but about other countries with out enough invites as well.

Prime, worlds should stay worlds, BUT it's really starting to be unfair for many deserving players out there who are unable to get an invite.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Yeah, that is quite offensive.

Dunno where you got that information from. If it was from a European, they are just being a jerk and trying to show off.

I get my info by reading reports posted on the gym. >_>

 

[baby mario]

I get my info by reading reports posted on the gym. >_>

Wow . . . even worse, I should think.

I dunno where all this stuff about 'deserving' players comes from. POP decides who is deserving, end of story.

 

[SD PokeMom]

Prime, worlds should stay worlds, BUT it's really starting to be unfair for many deserving players out there who are unable to get an invite.

and that IS life: it's NOT 'fair'...especially when one's definition of 'fair' seems to be 'what's best for ME'.

a very valid analogy was made upthread about entry into the olympics being much more difficult for athletes from the 'big' countries than smaller. but are people really going to say that the jamaican bobsled team of years back didn't 'deserve' to be there because a 'better' team from another country missed their country's cutoff? they don't have the right to participate, to have that olympic experience even though they might end up dead last?

i've news for you: SOMEONE is going to end up dead last in any tournament. and because of that, they've no right to participate? really?

'mom

 

[DarthPika]

I really don't think you can really say anything about whats fair considering you've gotten invites the past two years.

Deserving? How about when many US players with far better records than those in other countries aren't getting invites while the players in the other countries are? POP really needs to think long and hard about the current rating system, because TBH it sucks, and is VERY biased.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

and that IS life: it's NOT 'fair'...especially when one's definition of 'fair' seems to be 'what's best for ME'.

a very valid analogy was made upthread about entry into the olympics being much more difficult for athletes from the 'big' countries than smaller. but are people really going to say that the jamaican bobsled team of years back didn't 'deserve' to be there because a 'better' team from another country missed their country's cutoff? they don't have the right to participate, to have that olympic experience even though they might end up dead last?

i've news for you: SOMEONE is going to end up dead last in any tournament. and because of that, they've no right to participate? really?

'mom

Mom, I know very well that life isn't fair. BUT the whole goal of this stupid game is to get to worlds. Unless I'm mistaken that's what is constantly being advertised. When it gets to the point that someone can't get an invite JUST because of where he or she happens to live, there is something very wrong.

 

[SD PokeMom]

you're assuming their intent for worlds is to have the 'best' players there...instead of the X 'best' players from EACH COUNTRY there. apples and oranges...

'mom

 

[baby mario]

I really don't think you can really say anything about whats fair considering you've gotten invites the past two years.

What does that have to do with it? If I had sour grapes over missed invites, would my opinion be more valid?

Deserving? How about when many US players with far better records than those in other countries aren't getting invites while the players in the other countries are? POP really needs to think long and hard about the current rating system, because TBH it sucks, and is VERY biased.

I have no idea how you measure 'deserving'. I have no idea how you can compare records. I am sure that some in the US find it easier to get rankings points than others cos they live closer to a lot of tourneys, or they live in an area with weaker players, or whatever. In fact, I know I have read posts whinging about that before.

 

[DarthPika]

you're assuming their intent for worlds is to have the 'best' players there...instead of the X 'best' players from EACH COUNTRY there. apples and oranges...

'mom

I don't mind having the best players for each county. I LIKE that idea. It's just I really wish they would at least try a little more to have invites proportional to the player population. As it stands I work really hard all year to... play in nats and lose top 128 on a bad hand. :/ Isn't that just SO much fun? All my efforts down the drain on 1 battle. ATM the pokemon season for many is very anti climatic. Work all year to try and get an invite, but never get it. This is when I really start to wonder what the point in playing is. POP is so focused on getting new players in, they forget that when those players find they will never get to the ultimate tourney, worlds, those players may not keep playing.

 

[XYZ_Sniper]

No, I really don't care which country it is. I just would like a shot to play in it. What fun is it to play the game with the ultimate goal to get to worlds when you know you'll probably never get it due to where you live? I'm not saying this just about the US, but about other countries with out enough invites as well.
QUOTE]

I dont see why you then complain about the shot to worlds. The United States, has Regionals *as I have heard Portugul does not* The U.S is given more invites then most other Nationals. They are given more rankings invites then most other countries*you have to understand that even with a larger player base, not everyone is good at this game*.

The economy is pretty beaten up in Hong Kong, and i assume other places; therefore if a winner cannot travel the invites might trickle down to the Grinder. Which by the way is held in the U.S.

As for the other countries not getting enough invites? APAC area gets 4, and im pretty sure they dont have that little players. And i again bring up Hong Kong only being given 1 INVITE from Nats.

 

[Prime]

Prime, worlds should stay worlds, BUT it's really starting to be unfair for many deserving players out there who are unable to get an invite.

Starting to get unfair? It has always been unfair. That is the nature of the beast.

There are so many talented players that there will never be a Worlds where they all get to play.

 

[SD PokeMom]

not to mention that there will never be a worlds where everyone who THINKS they 'deserve' to play will get to play...who has the sigfile with the quote about 100 players thinking they belong in the top 25?

'mom