Slow play

[The Dark Toxicroak]

AFAIK it is 30 seconds or less .../ depends on the actions. Larger actions such as searching through your deck and looking through your discard warrant more time where as things that don't take long to do like playing a card from your hand or attaching energy less time.

 

[afstandopleren]

What slimeygrimey said is right too. I know tons of games where I knew time was running out and my opponent was playing slowly.... so I just played blitz speed to make a comeback.

1. Playing at blitz speed may actually cost the game due to the fact you probably aren't able to figure some stuff out...unless you are 1 of those very few players who can skim through 30 cards T1 in 2 minutes with a Shuppet deck without making any mistakes.

2. What if the speed you put in your turns still isn't enough to win the game. I know it happened at my game, trying to either 2HKO a Kingdra or Moon Skipping a Kingdra. It just doesn't help if your opponent can flip heads on SSU or take 2 minutes of thinking before retreating for 1 of his other 2 Kingdra.

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Wait . . . are you saying that it is legal to take TWO MINUTES to do ONE action (e.g. attach an Energy)?

Is that really true? It doesn't sound right to me.

I have heard about that 2 minute thing as well but atleast it was said that Energy attachments was like 30 seconds. Still, the fact that there is a time limit for every action you take, makes it hard to keep check on it without a chess clock or timer. Then there is also the fact that you want to figure out the order of the things that you want to do this turn..... which is obviously a very painful aspect of the game when it concerns slow play.

Doesn't make it all the more harder to kick someone having a rep as slow player from the OP in my opinion. I seriously think that if a player has had the rep for atleast 1 year, that that should be enough to prevent that person from going to big tournaments, or if he has the rep for a couple of years, ban him from OP completely. Why wait for someone to open their mouth to get others out of harms way?

 

[baby mario]

You can't ban someone on rep alone . . . it would just be too easy for others to lie and badmouth a rival. I think a judge would have to actually catch someone cheating first.

I dunno . . . if you can't win this game without cheating/being underhand then you seriously need to look at yourself in the mirror and think about having some more self-respect. People who are THAT desperate . . . I sort of feel sorry for them.

 

[afstandopleren]

doesn't mean that they trouble others by exhibiting such low behavior and get rewarded for it with a Worlds invite.

I know how intricate (did I say that right) and prone to abuse the idea is. But I believe that if you have a good sense of character, that you'll be able to tell if someone is lying about an other person, especially if you know him for several years.

 

[NoPoke]

So many problems ....

There is no legal time limit for any action. There are guidelines, which are mostly to educate judges, which specifically address the issue of stalling if a player is repeatedly hitting those guideline times.

Judges should not be afraid of calling any player for slow play. There is no accusation behind a slow play comment from staff: it is just a statement that pace is not sufficient and needs to increase. I don't know how well this message has penetrated the mass ranks of staff out there but I know that many players associate slow play with some heinous slight on their character. It isn't.

"I always play at this pace" is not a valid defence.

If you have that sinking feeling before you go into a match then tell the HJ before you sit down. (This isn't a fix but it is a first step towards a fix where actual cheats are caught)

Chucking someone out just for having a bad reputation will never happen.

minimum for 2/3 is 45 minutes.

 

[afstandopleren]

Okay, so I have bad news: slow play is legal. And Good news: slow play is the only way to win an autoloss because you can never get caught with it!

Seriously, people need to check themselves and the rules.

How do other games handle this? The same? Well, that's a nice way to boast popularity once it's out in the open...

 

[NoPoke]

Okay, so I have bad news: slow play is legal.....

*shrug*

not what I said at all.

I wont bother to explain further as I don't think you are seeking help or information. My mistake for not spotting a rant. (Not that rants are inherently bad but they often go bad )

 

[afstandopleren]

You just confirmed how bad the game and the people that represent it handle such people. Nothing more nothing less. No offense btw.

I agree that it will be coming to a screeching halt after this.

 

[Jaeger]

Time is a factor in this game people need to be aware of that it is also a win condition (Like it or not it is). What it sounds like is your opponent realized he had lost the game but was so far up in prizes he knew he could win on time. He changed his stragey from winning to simply not losing. It sounds like everything he did was perfectly legal, I highly doubt he took as much time as you think he did. In games 30 seconds can easily seem like 3 mins. This whole thing really sounds like your just sore becuase of the loss on time (which I can't say I blame you) but I would be shocked if you also haven't won games on time to.

 

[meganium45]

Oh please. We have stomped on slow players, and made their life misearable all over the midwest.

Don't paint such a broad brush here.

There are a lot of great judges throughout the US (and around the world) who know how to handle this sort of thing.

This is really the issue that separates the elite judges from the Worlds Level Judges.

Tough calls, but you have to be fair to both players.

V

 

[SuperWooper]

The reason you can't expel or suspend a player for slow play is that it's impossible to prove intent. My pace of play is rather below average, but it's not premeditated. I have a hard time, for example, picking which cards to put on the bottom with Cosmic Power or discard with Dragon Pump - this is due to a lack of practice and the knowledge that once those cards disappear I might never see them again, and not because I want to take a few extra seconds off the clock. It's likely that there are a handful of OP participants amid its tens of thousands who, on a regular basis, play slowly to abuse the time limits imposed on them, but intent can't be proven.

 

[SteveP]

Slow players know they're slow. I've never gotten too much "guff" when I've asked a player to "step it up." Not a tough call (giving a slow-play warning). I'm not an elite or Worlds-level HJ, yet I can still make the call.

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The first bit of what he was doing (retreating, SSU-ing) is just legit good play to keep yourself in the game.

Retreating THEN SSU-ing the Poke you just retreated CAN be suspicious. Under NORMAL circumstances, you're going to want to save your 1 retreat rather than waste it on a Poke you're going to scoop. Obviously, there CAN be situations where you want to retreat first (ie., getting some energy in the discard pile). Just because you CAN do something, well, that doesn't always mean you're not slow-playing.

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Saying a person has a reputation to slow-play to victory isn't enough. The penalties need to stack against him/her for actions to be taken - judges need to issue slow-play penalties to the player.

I've sometimes heard this defense: "I'm not going slow. I'm just being cautious so I won't make any mistakes." As an avid boardgamer, when a player is overly cautious, we call that AP or "analysis paralysis." Sometimes, the nature of the game (decision points, complexity) fosters AP. More often, it's the nature of the player.

AP is not generally punishable, and it's sometimes heard to disguish from deliberate slow-play; thus, the need for judges to observe. If I deem the player to be AP-ish, I'll verbally comment or caution the player to "pick up the pace."

 

[Squidwina]

But if my fellow players sitting next to us the whole time could also have been aware and if they noticed it, why couldn't they give the Judges a holler or speak up?

I was under the impression that players are supposed to concern themselves with their own match only.

 

[evil psyduck]

I was under the impression that players are supposed to concern themselves with their own match only.

You do not say anything to the players but it is allowed to call a judge over and tell them.

 

[Mloclam]

Retreating THEN SSU-ing the Poke you just retreated CAN be suspicious. Under NORMAL circumstances, you're going to want to save your 1 retreat rather than waste it on a Poke you're going to scoop. Obviously, there CAN be situations where you want to retreat first (ie., getting some energy in the discard pile). Just because you CAN do something, well, that doesn't always mean you're not slow-playing.

If a player can do something then the player has every right to make the move, regardless of it being "unnecessary". A judge has no say in a player's train of thought. A judge could not possibly say that you were slow-playing by retreating first then using SSU because perhaps the player originally decided to retreat and then thought that using SSU would be a better idea.

Slowplaying is a pretty tough thing to call other than the obvious stalling for long periods of time without performing a move.

 

[SteveP]

If a player can do something then the player has every right to make the move, regardless of it being "unnecessary". A judge has no say in a player's train of thought. A judge could not possibly say that you were slow-playing by retreating first then using SSU because perhaps the player originally decided to retreat and then thought that using SSU would be a better idea.

Slowplaying is a pretty tough thing to call other than the obvious stalling for long periods of time without performing a move.

From the Penalty Guidelines:

Making legal plays which have no effect on the game in progress to manipulate the time remaining in a match.

Retreating, then SSU-ing, by itself might not attract much attention from the judge. However, in the context of late-game where it's to your advantage to play slowly, doing an unnecessary move "just because you can," fits the example above, possibly getting you a game-loss.

 

[Cyrus]

Stalling (or pace for lack of intent) is the most ambiguous, yet defining quirk of competitive Pokemon TCG play. Pokemon players write and converse on this topic so much, you could create a 100 page book just on this one topic. Everyone's been on the receiving end in some way, and - admit it or not - you've caused a tiny bit of turmoil, even if you didn't realize it, intend it, or even DO it.

Unless the rules are seriously overhauled in some way, I've come to peace with the issue in these terms:

What I should do as a player:

-Avoid going slow. Players who play this game right ought to play meticulously, so there are some situations where you are legitimately called upon to take 30+ seconds to just sit there and construct a course of action; however, these are rare, so for stupid-simple things, go FASTER!
-In case I feel like my pace is way too sluggish, I say/do something to put my opponent at ease. Most of the time it's just a "if I'm going too slow, let me know" statement, but I've once in a while called over a judge to observe pace on myself.
-In case I feel like my opponent's pace is way too sluggish, I simply call over a judge to observe our pace of play.

Just don't do that last one when time is called.

 

[FunnyBear]

From the Penalty Guidelines:

Retreating, then SSU-ing, by itself might not attract much attention from the judge. However, in the context of late-game where it's to your advantage to play slowly, doing an unnecessary move "just because you can," fits the example above, possibly getting you a game-loss.

I'd like to hear real examples of this ruling being applied because it seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to enforce. There is a limit to moves you can make, barring repeated searrching of discard, shuffling at length, etc. Are you going to be able to look at a game and say to a player "you have a watch, you know there is less than 1 minute left in play, prizes are tied. You played SUU, POV, then Cosmic Power, before KOing the Pokemon after time so your opponent wouldn't get a turn, didn't you?" Thats making a lot of assumptions. Then when the player says, "no, I thought we were going to go into Sudden Death and I wanted to improve my game position", what are you going to say? I'd much rather allow judges to grant discretionary 5 min game extensions for "ambiguous wins". No one should win a game they otherwise would have lost because their opponent didn't get 1 more turn. One could also adjudicate games that go to time, based upon the entire game state, rather than going just by the prize count, but that would require a level of playing acumen that most judges probably have, but none are actually required to have.

 

[afstandopleren]

I'd like to hear real examples of this ruling being applied because it seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to enforce. There is a limit to moves you can make, barring repeated searrching of discard, shuffling at length, etc. Are you going to be able to look at a game and say to a player "you have a watch, you know there is less than 1 minute left in play, prizes are tied. You played SUU, POV, then Cosmic Power, before KOing the Pokemon after time so your opponent wouldn't get a turn, didn't you?" Thats making a lot of assumptions. Then when the player says, "no, I thought we were going to go into Sudden Death and I wanted to improve my game position", what are you going to say? I'd much rather allow judges to grant discretionary 5 min game extensions for "ambiguous wins". No one should win a game they otherwise would have lost because their opponent didn't get 1 more turn. One could also adjudicate games that go to time, based upon the entire game state, rather than going just by the prize count, but that would require a level of playing acumen that most judges probably have, but none are actually required to have.

You just pointed out the lack of integrity and honesty that several players seem to have. And that is exactly the reason why Judges with good people-knowledge should be able to expel these 'bad apples'.

 

[Scipio]

I love how you go on about this while you yourself are highly renowned for taking your sweet time with your actions. In between your plays rearranging your cards to tidy them up, for example.
Now it is easily possible to stop slowplayers - CALL. A. JUDGE.
As we went over this nearly a year ago, I made the same error as you did in 2008 - not calling a Judge on a slowplayer. We went over this back in June/July and still you keep referring back to Nats 2009?

Look, slow players are no fun to play against, so call a judge and ask them to take note of the time. However, since they'll also pay special attention to YOU, this can backfire if you're slow yourself.

Do note I'm a huge fan of giving a few more turns after Time is called (Say, both players get 2 more turns) especially after a rather sour loss at Cities this season, but thats more to do with the way games are won rather then solemnly with slowplayers.