Suggestion for PTOs: Update round pairings and standings via your website

[losjackal]

The only way I see this ever realistically happening is if somebody wrote a script to take the HTML file that TOM spits out (or I suppose the XML, although then you would also have to have your script calculate the match records - not too crazy complicated, but it is extra work), eat the last names, and then hand it back in a format that phones can more easily display (the current HTML output is fine for printing, but really isn't buckets of fun to look at on a phone).

Even then, I wouldn't do it unless we were green-lighted, and based on the "if you don't want the answer, don't ask" rule, I doubt we would get clearance anyway. But yeah, realistically, don't expect to get any help from TOM.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

This is precisely where I'm at. Making something that could technologically work isn't the problem. I have code and metadata in place on PokeGym Labs that could make this easy even. It's getting PTOs to be able to use it without getting in trouble.

 

[ryanvergel]

Oh look, people brainstorming SOLUTIONS instead of throwing out possible dilemmas and calling it a day as an unfeasible, impossible project.

1. You can do it for masters only.
2. You can write a script or program to take the XML, TDF, or HTML and remove last names and replace with initials. You can add the POP ID (seriously, only those who have the same first name and last initial even need to worry about, and you could make it for JRs/SRs only, so the chances of two JRs/SRs having the same first name and last initial are miniscule, if they're even using this software, and then to not know their POP ID is just insane). You're supposed to know your POP ID to register!
2a. Great suggestions, psychup. Take the reverse! Do a first initial and last name (if that's possible). This is the kind of thinking we need. Instead of saying this can't be done, why don't more people try to HELP? This is the way of the future, and it's a good thing for the game. Just recognize it as a good thing and you should be trying to help.
3. Changing TOM is like an impossible task. It needs a huge revamp, but it's unlikely to see any real change, especially for new things like this, any time soon. The best thing is to take what it does do- generate the above 3 file types, and work within that.



Nemes, thanks for the great suggestions and information.

Jaeger, great as usual. I notice the exact same thing you do. A LOT of people notice what you said. Thanks for putting it out there, because there are many, many, many people who feel like there is almost no point to bringing up discussion on this website. Anything that is either in opposition to TPCi gets shot down, and anything that suggests changing the norm gets shot down. So much resistance and stubbornness.

---------- Post added 11/08/2012 at 04:22 PM ----------

STL is working on the problem as well.

WOW Worlds pairings were sent via twitter, and it was a 300+ person event.

There are multiple venues working on this.

Vince

I couldn't "like" your post, so I will quote it and say "awesome!" instead.

Yes, we should be embracing technology, not being resistant to it. I can foresee a way to (instead of text) have tweets sent out with your individual pairings. It's not hard to do.

I'm glad people are working on this. I hope it takes off. It would be a great thing to see.

 

[dtrain]

Definitely like this idea Ryan! This would greatly benefit the Masters Division players. Although VGC is still relatively new, the crowd is going to eventually be just as big as the TCG crowd. It would be nice to implement this to save time for both tournaments when Nationals comes around.

 

[Mystery Thing]

Oh look, people brainstorming SOLUTIONS instead of throwing out possible dilemmas and calling it a day as an unfeasible, impossible project.

1. You can do it for masters only.

Depends on if we'd be fine with COPPA restrictions, or if we had to go all the way to minors. If it's the latter, you would still need consent from parents of the 15-18 year olds.

2. You can write a script or program to take the XML, TDF, or HTML and remove last names and replace with initials. You can add the POP ID (seriously, only those who have the same first name and last initial even need to worry about, and you could make it for JRs/SRs only, so the chances of two JRs/SRs having the same first name and last initial are miniscule, if they're even using this software, and then to not know their POP ID is just insane). You're supposed to know your POP ID to register!

We may ~NOT~ post POP IDs. This isn't an opinion. WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT.

2a. Great suggestions, psychup. Take the reverse! Do a first initial and last name (if that's possible). This is the kind of thinking we need. Instead of saying this can't be done, why don't more people try to HELP? This is the way of the future, and it's a good thing for the game. Just recognize it as a good thing and you should be trying to help.

Know what else is a good thing? Cake. I like cake. Sadly, I don't have any. So let's all brainstorm ways I can steal some from my neighbourhood bakery!

It doesn't matter how good of an idea something is in theory. If we can't legally do it, no amount of brainstorming will solve the problem.

3. Changing TOM is like an impossible task. It needs a huge revamp, but it's unlikely to see any real change, especially for new things like this, any time soon. The best thing is to take what it does do- generate the above 3 file types, and work within that.

Pretty much, yeah.

------

If we were given the OK by TPCI's legal team (either directly or via some other department head), then yes, it's a great idea and those who have the technology to do it should. We all agree on that. But their legal team is the be all, end all. If they don't say we can do it, we absolutely 100% can not do it. No brainstorming, no alternatives, nothing.

Who did it is none of your concern (unless they choose to identify themselves), but somebody who is a PTO has posed the question to the higherups. So now we all get to sit and wait for their answer.

 

[ryanvergel]

Definitely like this idea Ryan! This would greatly benefit the Masters Division players. Although VGC is still relatively new, the crowds are going to eventually be just as big as the TCG crowds so it would be nice to implement this to save time for both tournaments when Nationals comes around.

Why can't I like more posts!

But yes, that's a great point- this helps the VGC too! Even more time saved at regionals, nationals, and worlds!

 

[psychup2034]

If we can't legally do it, no amount of brainstorming will solve the problem.

It's because we can't legally do it (in any of the current methods that have been proposed) that we need to brainstorm more creative ideas. If we could legally do it, we wouldn't need to brainstorm, would we?

---------- Post added 11/08/2012 at 05:02 PM ----------

Depends on if we'd be fine with COPPA restrictions, or if we had to go all the way to minors. If it's the latter, you would still need consent from parents of the 15-18 year olds.

Also, Mystery Thing, I may be assuming too much, but you do know that COPPA only applies to children under the age of 13 right? Last I checked, there are no Masters under the age of 13.

Why can't this be done for Masters? Is there another law, because it certainly isn't COPPA

 

[Mystery Thing]

Also, Mystery Thing, I may be assuming too much, but you do know that COPPA only applies to children under the age of 13 right? Last I checked, there are no Masters under the age of 13.

Why can't this be done for Masters? Is there another law, because it certainly isn't COPPA

That's what I mean. If COPPA is enough, then the Masters wouldn't have a problem. If it's not enough and we have to cover our tracks for all minors, then we have a problem.

 

[psychup2034]

That's what I mean. If COPPA is enough, then the Masters wouldn't have a problem. If it's not enough and we have to cover our tracks for all minors, then we have a problem.

Sorry for misinterpreting what you meant. Even if it just covered Masters, it would save a ton of time at Nationals (probably an hour over the course of a day).

 

[Mystery Thing]

Sorry for misinterpreting what you meant. Even if it just covered Masters, it would save a ton of time at Nationals (probably an hour over the course of a day).

I doubt it would be THAT much, but it would certainly be significant, yeah.

Holy crap, we're in agreement on something. The Mayans were right. :tongue:

 

[ryanvergel]

Who did it is none of your concern (unless they choose to identify themselves), but somebody who is a PTO has posed the question to the higherups. So now we all get to sit and wait for their answer.

That doesn't come across as nice or productive at all.

Somebody who is a PTO (but wishes to remain anonymous) blah blah blah would have been a much better phrasing.

How do you know I don't know? Cool that you know though, bro!

 

[NoPoke]

There are more legal constraints out there than just COPPA. TPCi operates in more than one legal jurisdiction and is thus subject to more than one set of national laws. EU data protection laws apply to all citizens regardless of age.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Just throwing this out there. But speaking hypothetically if you were able to get beyond all of the legal stuff and stripped the Junior/Seniors down to First name and last initial wouldn't that still possibly cause some trouble for those with the same first name and first initial. It's a little out there sure, but just something to think about.

 

[PokePop]

Because it comes from individuals why typically (1) are opponents of ideas that alter the status quo (2) are opponents of ideas that are in opposition with what TPCi/OP is doing. Both of these factors give Jay a reason to label some comments here as 'hate.'

Instead of focusing on figuring out how to overcome the "very real real life legal and other issues" in order to make this great idea a possibility, some people insist on labeling this idea as "unfeasible." Pointing out that there are real legal issues with this idea is fine. Now help us figure out how we could overcome these issues.

For example, one such way to overcome this issue is to upload a first name, last initial, and a player ID. This may not work for Juniors (as some are too young), but I'm pretty sure that Seniors and Masters are able to identify a 6-digit number associated with themselves if there are people there with the same first name and last initial.

It's very discouraging when someone has a great idea, and the purported authority figures on the 'gym (the forum moderators) are quick to find ways reasons why that idea is unfeasible instead of being proactive in helping the community brainstorm ways that the challenges can be overcome. It's very discouraging.

So, what you're saying is that no matter how valid her points are, or how much they would be considered if made by someone else, since it's her making them, her post is not welcome.

Excuse me, but who are the "haters"?

 

[SmeargleMe]

So rather than making this info public, how about making it private?

2 options:
1) If the location has no Internet connectivity and a local wireless LAN\web server is used: Your POP ID is your username and your lastname is your password via HTTPS (no packet sniffing) to initially login, and then create a password for that tournament (or maybe combo of ID, lastname and birthday). And have lockout controls like 3 bad login attempts with one ID and prevent logins for 30min (length of a round), and 6 bad attempts of any IDs from an IP address and prevent logins from that IP for 30min. So while you could mess with someone for the tournament, it makes a denial of service a little more difficult (though not impossible). And there would be the ability to register multiple IDs so you could see the info for multiple people (friends, children).
2) If the location has Internet access then tie the info to their Pokemon account. That would let parents see the info for any children tied to their account. It would be a good way to get new people to register.

In both cases, the main page would only display the account holder's info, table #, record and only the first name of your opponent. This reduces the amount of traffic that gets passed, reducing the required resources (web server resources, bandwidth, those with limited data rates, resolution of display, etc...) on all ends. And perhaps the only other option would be to display the standings with everyone else's names blanked out. Since you're doing more than just displaying a static page, it'll take a little more coding but it might answer the privacy issue.

 

[ryanvergel]

So, what you're saying is that no matter how valid her points are, or how much they would be considered if made by someone else, since it's her making them, her post is not welcome.

Excuse me, but who are the "haters"?

Not that I necessarily agree, but the first line seems to have been ignored by you:

Because it comes from individuals who typically (1) are opponents of ideas that alter the status quo (2) are opponents of ideas that are in opposition with what TPCi/OP is doing. Both of these factors give Jay a reason to label some comments here as 'hate.'

We are definitely not trying to be haters, but there is only so much we can take when every constructive idea, and every criticism is consistently met with the same types of responses (1 &2).

Furthermore, regardless of who has made remarks, I think every criticism in this thread has been met with good responses.

I shouldn't be too surprised. If you're a PTO you're almost obligated to be supportive of TPCi when they are criticized, but in instances like this where a new idea to IMPROVE the game is met, it's not met with the kind of responses Jay highlights (great idea- here is how we can improve it -or- "you may want to try this") instead of "it will never work because of XYZ". That isn't constructive discussion. That does nothing.

All it does is deter people from coming here bringing their good ideas to the table. No one wants that.

I hate the idea of an "us vs them" mentality, but I feel like that is what it breaks down to every time.

 

[espeon200]

Something that I just don't understand because of the way I think and how I handle problems:

It seems like the overwhelming response to any proposed problem is "you're just not being positive enough" or "Why don't you come up with solutions instead of problems." And yes, I can admit that it's valid to come up to solutions to problems. But why do we have to hate the people who propose problems? Maybe they're proposing problems, not because they think it's a bad idea, but because they see a problem and don't have a solution to it. Instead of staying silent, they introduce new problems for the community to brainstorm and fix. Once all the problems have been fixed then the idea becomes that much more feasible.

Instead of attacking people who seem to "buddy up to TPCI" every time a new idea is introduced, why can't we look at their responses, formulated by years of experience working alongside of TPCI, and try to meet concerns instead of ignoring or belittling them?

 

[losjackal]

OMG yes espeon200! Thank you. I actually am pulled over in a parking lot right now to write a response to ryan's latest post, because it's bothering me that much.

I'll grant that my first reply had a fair amount of negativity, but I make the effort to share my thoughts because it helps fuel the discussion of potential issues. Otherwise, what do we have? "Great idea ryan! Someone do it!" "Way to go!" "Yeah this would be awesome for the game!" That doesn't get us anywhere.

Furthermore, Ryan, when you ended your original post with this:

I think any obstacles in the way of this can easily be overcome.

Just like many people who post their latest big idea, you only see the positives. This thread has a lot of constructive feedback from people who care about the idea too, and as is apparent now, other people have either done it already or are planning on doing it too. This "us vs. them" sentiment is BS. If there is a perceived "versus" here, I promise you it's only coming from the player side. It's inconceivable that the PTOs and moderators and other people (like me) hold the players in contempt so as to think everything is a battle. SD_Pokemom seems to be a lightning rod for this kind of vitriol, and now I have I taste of it with your reply to me.

Everyone's going to have an opinion. If you don't want to open yourself up to feedback, don't post. Maybe you aren't taking it as constructive, but if someone with experience or knowledge says "it will never work because of ...", maybe it's true! But for Pete's sake, let's not get into harping on HOW people are saying it and holding that against them.

 

[ryanvergel]

Something that I just don't understand because of the way I think and how I handle problems:

It seems like the overwhelming response to any proposed problem is "you're just not being positive enough" or "Why don't you come up with solutions instead of problems." And yes, I can admit that it's valid to come up to solutions to problems. But why do we have to hate the people who propose problems? Maybe they're proposing problems, not because they think it's a bad idea, but because they see a problem and don't have a solution to it. Instead of staying silent, they introduce new problems for the community to brainstorm and fix. Once all the problems have been fixed then the idea becomes that much more feasible.

Instead of attacking people who seem to "buddy up to TPCI" every time a new idea is introduced, why can't we look at their responses, formulated by years of experience working alongside of TPCI, and try to meet concerns instead of ignoring or belittling them?

No concerns have been ignored, so for that you're just wrong.

Every "problem" or "concern" was met with answers or solutions.

I think people are more desirous of finding problems with a good idea, than trying to find ways to implement it. I know that's just an opinion, but that is the opinion of MANY, MANY people. I'm not alone in thinking this way- I'm probably just one of the more vocal ones to express this sentiment. You can express problems or concerns, but to be dismissive or purely contrarian is not good. This thread is just one example in a series of examples where individuals CONSISTENTLY do this. We're not stupid- we see the same posters post consistently against any good idea, NEVER offering anything constructive, and never offering solutions. They don't offer them in a way to ever cushion the blow, or in a way to actually say an idea is good. It's just no- this won't work, or that is a bad idea. Never good idea, hard to do. Never a positive remark, but always pure negativity. I am not alone. I'd say you are in the minority, actually, for thinking the way you do. MysterThing is probably the closest one of the people who offered criticism to do it well and in a constructive manner. You all could take a lesson from his few posts in here. "great idea from a logistical standpoint, not so much from a legal standpoint"- while this is actually pretty debateable (hence the back and forth between mystery and psychup), it is a criticism offered in a constructive manner, while ACKNOWLEDGING a good a idea and offering up problems (and even a solution or two, and hey, even AGREEMENT!).

I find it funny that you say "maybe they just didn't have a solution?" I find it curious that people who are creative enough, and analytical enough, and knowledgeable enough to see nuanced problems with an idea are incapable of seeing nuanced solutions, too. Maybe this one time they didn't have a solution, but this is a CONSISTENT thing.

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170370

Check out that thread for tons of examples. Time and time again I offer solutions, each shot down with no attempt to compromise or offer their own solutions.

I say we could give 8 packs at the beginning (no no no, people would scam [even though it was established that the value of packs made it cost virtually the same, if not MORE than buying a box (per pack)]). I said you could do 7 up front, and 1 later. NO. I said you could do 8 up front, keep the promo and the deckbox. NO. Maybe we can do a different format for some people- NO. Maybe we can do a whole SLEW of things to make the prereleases better- NO NO NO.

This is the exact same thing happening. It happens every time a player offers a good idea up. Some people come in, every single time, and shoot it down with everything they can think of, every solution, never ever ever offering a solution of their own. And when a good idea IS found, they are silent and don't acknowledge it.

OMG yes espeon200! Thank you. I actually am pulled over in a parking lot right now to write a response to ryan's latest post, because it's bothering me that much.

I'll grant that my first reply had a fair amount of negativity, but I make the effort to share my thoughts because it helps fuel the discussion of potential issues. Otherwise, what do we have? "Great idea ryan! Someone do it!" "Way to go!" "Yeah this would be awesome for the game!" That doesn't get us anywhere.

Furthermore, Ryan, when you ended your original post with this:



Just like many people who post their latest big idea, you only see the positives. This thread has a lot of constructive feedback from people who care about the idea too, and as is apparent now, other people have either done it already or are planning on doing it too. This "us vs. them" sentiment is BS. If there is a perceived "versus" here, I promise you it's only coming from the player side. It's inconceivable that the PTOs and moderators and other people (like me) hold the players in contempt so as to think everything is a battle. SD_Pokemom seems to be a lightning rod for this kind of vitriol, and now I have I taste of it with your reply to me.

Everyone's going to have an opinion. If you don't want to open yourself up to feedback, don't post. Maybe you aren't taking it as constructive, but if someone with experience or knowledge says "it will never work because of ...", maybe it's true! But for Pete's sake, let's not get into harping on HOW people are saying it and holding that against them.

BS, but countless players feel this way. I'm sorry you're ignorant of how hundreds of players feel about posting on the 'gym, but that's the way it is. that's why I called you out.

You're super hypocrticial. On facebook, you were ALL FOR the idea.

As soon as you're on the gym, you turn the other face. THAT is .

I've actually thought a lot about this, and how it could work easily. I'd even build it for them.

Problem is, any mechanism to communicate pairings is not worth it.

That is why I gave you a rude response. On one side, where the discussion is dominated by players (Heyfonte on facebook), you clearly play up to one side- oh, this is a great idea, it would be easy to implement, etc.

As soon as you're on pokegym, it becomes "it isn't worth it". You blatantly contradict yourself, and that kind of contradiction and lack of help is what people HATE about this website and all the "discussion" that takes place here.

Seriously, I have no problem with criticism. I wish you would act CONSISTENTLY, at least. You speak completely differently on heyfonte than you do here. One is constructive, the other is DISMISSIVE.

That is the key difference. Espeon, that is what you fail to grasp. It isn't that some people try to offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. They merely offer criticism, or are dismissive. There is a huge difference between the two.

Let's roleplay a Pokegym thread about it.

OP: City Championships start in ten days. Why aren't schedules up?
Pokegym Random: Yeah, why aren't they up?
Random judge: TPCi works very hard. You are out of line to make such absurd demands.
Rokman: SCREW EVERYONE!!

This is how a huge number of people feel about pokegym. Take it however you want, but many of you are seen as pure contrarians, who offer nothing but criticisms and problems, with nothing constructive to offer. And this DOES breed a feeling of "us vs them". If it's only coming from the "player side", then maybe you should think about how you all present yourselves, because to a LOT of people, this is how the situation seems.

 

[ShadowCard]

Instead of attacking people who seem to "buddy up to TPCI" every time a new idea is introduced, why can't we look at their responses, formulated by years of experience working alongside of TPCI, and try to meet concerns instead of ignoring or belittling them?

Constructive criticism is always welcomed.

Contrary and dismissive statements are not.

There are ways to frame statements. SD PokeMom presented a valid observation at the start of the thread: what if venues are unable to unload pairings online due to lack of connectivity? The answer to that was that this is one possible solution for venues that have difficulty printing multiple pairings lists or as a solution to the down time created when people crowd the few pairings lists that are posted. Connectivity and other issues should have been framed in a way that it is a problem that can be solved rather than bathwater with which the baby is thrown out.

 

[losjackal]

You're super hypocrticial. On facebook, you were ALL FOR the idea.

As soon as you're on the gym, you turn the other face. THAT is .

Wait, what? This is my full post on Facebook, which is the same thing I said here on the Gym but in fewer words:

I've actually thought a lot about this, and how it could work easily. I'd even build it for them. Problem is, the simplest solution (for pairings) still works: print it on paper and hang it on the wall. More technology introduces more chances for something to go wrong, and PTOs usually have enough to worry about during an event.

Massive texting costs money and is unreliable with questionable cell service inside buildings. Think Internet access is an issue for the PTO to post? Consider it for the players with various devices and carriers. Something as timely as pairings almost isn't worth it.

I'm still all for the idea! But the idea is not worth much if it can't be effectively executed upon. This is one of the smartest things I've come across:

To me, ideas are worth nothing unless executed. They are just a multiplier. Execution is worth millions.

Explanation:

Awful idea = -1
Weak idea = 1
So-so idea = 5
Good idea = 10
Great idea = 15
Brilliant idea = 20

No execution = $1
Weak execution = $1000
So-so execution = $10,000
Good execution = $100,000
Great execution = $1,000,000
Brilliant execution = $10,000,000
To make a business, you need to multiply the two.

The most brilliant idea, with no execution, is worth $20. The most brilliant idea takes great execution to be worth $20,000,000.

Poking holes in ideas, and subsequently plugging them, makes them stronger. They need to be strong because there is authority out there who can quash it immediately. (This isn't just about Pokémon, it's how real life works too.) Most people don't spend time on execution (like me so far in this case) unless there is a high enough certainty that the idea's execution will be not only permitted, but embraced by the people who actually need to do it (the PTOs in this scenario).

I think people are more desirous of finding problems with a good idea, than trying to find ways to implement it.

We have been discussing both the merits of the idea itself, as well as the possible ways to implement!

That is the key difference. Espeon, that is what you fail to grasp. It isn't that some people try to offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. They merely offer criticism, or are dismissive. There is a huge difference between the two.

All I'm saying (and what Espeon said too) is what you are interpreting as dismissive, others still see as constructive feedback. If I say "doing this for pairings isn't worth it" along with my reasons, I'm trying to convey a certain sentiment. It focused on how that information is valuable for about 5 minutes when people are trying to get seated, and my judgment based on what I've considered so far. With that, you are welcome to contradict my conclusions, as you did. What's not constructive about that? Now, if I said "this idea is terrible, no one is going to bother doing it", there is nothing there for you to build upon, so that is indeed just criticism without any benefit. You accused me of contributing virtually nothing to these forums, so if you read my many posts that's just not true. I may not agree with the original poster, but I always give reasons for further discussion.


P.S. It seems you and Jaeger and ShadowCard do want to nitpick about how people say things, so I'm not going to keep explaining my viewpoint. I'll just offer that as soon as you deviate from discussing the substance of someone's argument, and focus on them personally or how they said it, you're just weakening your own position. People may dogpile on your side because this is the Internet, but I'd say that's not constructive either.