Suggestion to Play! Pokemon re 2011 World Championship Decks: Print Tropical Beach!
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Rainbowgym
Active Member
This is so ............ (can't find the correct word but selfish comes close)
I also worked hard EACH YEAR and dished out more money that you can imagine to attend Worlds each year with my children.
But as a collector I find it not even funny that most people will not be able to complete a collection because the worlds promo's were not printed as "normal blackstar" (beside the 2004 one).
Each year there is a gap in most collectors thier collection due to the Worlds Promo and I don't think that should happen ever.
Player of World get the stamped one, for all others there is the non stamped (league??) one.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
I think a lot in the "pay to play" crowd ignore that the only "pay" element pertinent to P!P is the primary cost - not the secondary. Sure, he who pays 160€ for a whole play set is obviously "dedicated" to the game, but I'm sure P!P would rather see their marketing efforts go toward selling product rather than padding the wallet of an online seller. The move to insert a 61st card that's legal is far more likely to do the former than the latter (calling back to losjackal's point pages ago).
The stamped promos should always retain their exclusivity - no question. But let's get those unstamped promos in circulation, and hopefully see a bump in Worlds deck sales. This could potentially even lead to this becoming precedent for all Worlds decks.
The stamped promos should always retain their exclusivity - no question. But let's get those unstamped promos in circulation, and hopefully see a bump in Worlds deck sales. This could potentially even lead to this becoming precedent for all Worlds decks.
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I can see where Kettler is coming from on this one. It isn't like this game hasn't reprinted valuable cards before. I can also see the argument from a worlds qualifier's side. I have to admit Kettler's argument looks a lot more valid just from the way he is presenting it, rather than Sandile who is acting like a 12-year-old and bragging about his accomplishments (and probably doesn't even know who Kettler is). Personally, I think the most likely scenario is Ross's deck doesn't even get printed, which is a shame.
jumpluff82
New Member
I didn't go to Worlds, and I still think it would be ridiculous to print this card without the stamp. Now if it were a game breaking card that you needed to have to do well, then there's no point in only giving it to the Worlds people. IMO, the Worlds promo's purpose is to give players a bad to mediocre souvenir, not a crazy advantage over any player that didn't go to Worlds. The guy just stuck a single copy in his deck for the lulz. He probably didn't really test it. The card is not that good.
K2theAblaM
New Member
Stuck a card in for the lulz? ya okay....
Bottom line is it's a playable card, and it was played in a championship contending deck. Just because you don't see an use for it doesn't mean someone can't come along and build a tier 1 deck using the card.
Open your mind to the possibility that there are other players out there that can use, and want the card if only to test it or play it at league.
Besides, I'm sure the people that ACTUALLY received the card at worlds don't want to use their stamped $50(?) copy of the card.
A promo release of the card would make everyone happy.
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GodBlessAmerica
New Member
I'm going to side with Kettler here. It is completely ridiculous to provide a great card to only a select few. I qualified for worlds the in 2009 and 2010. Those cards may have been exclusive to Worlds Participants, but they weren't very good cards. I worked really hard this season too, got within range for an invite through Rating, however a few sour flips at Nationals and I am sitting here without the worlds prize pack.
Think about all of those players that worked really hard all season only to get poor flips on reversals at Nationals and lost their invite. Now think about the 16 players that played in 1 tournament (the grinder), flipped just enough heads and now have the only viable stadium card in the format.
I understand where the people who are against Kettler's idea are coming from, however there is a better solution. Giving out a really nice playmat, and maybe some really cool World Championship sleeves would be a much better choice. They have done really nice playmats this year and last year, sleeves would really make the bag great without supplying good cards to a select few people
Think about all of those players that worked really hard all season only to get poor flips on reversals at Nationals and lost their invite. Now think about the 16 players that played in 1 tournament (the grinder), flipped just enough heads and now have the only viable stadium card in the format.
I understand where the people who are against Kettler's idea are coming from, however there is a better solution. Giving out a really nice playmat, and maybe some really cool World Championship sleeves would be a much better choice. They have done really nice playmats this year and last year, sleeves would really make the bag great without supplying good cards to a select few people
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
A few final thoughts on this topic before I bow out:
*Although my motivation to make this post was indeed the playability of this card, I feel that this is an idea that should be continued for years to come, and should become a mainstay in the Worlds decks. It's logically correct to say that we should have been pushing this since 2005; and while 2011 is LATE, late is better than never.
*P!P should NOT eliminate the stamped Worlds promos. These are special prizes, and are every bit the "trophy" competitors get for playing. Just because I support a mass release of an unstamped promo does not suggest I support the elimination of the stamped version. Use logic, people.
*Ren and Stimpy was a fantastic show in the early-1990s, and its online reruns have 100% cured my Post Worlds Depression ("PWD").
*Although my motivation to make this post was indeed the playability of this card, I feel that this is an idea that should be continued for years to come, and should become a mainstay in the Worlds decks. It's logically correct to say that we should have been pushing this since 2005; and while 2011 is LATE, late is better than never.
*P!P should NOT eliminate the stamped Worlds promos. These are special prizes, and are every bit the "trophy" competitors get for playing. Just because I support a mass release of an unstamped promo does not suggest I support the elimination of the stamped version. Use logic, people.
*Ren and Stimpy was a fantastic show in the early-1990s, and its online reruns have 100% cured my Post Worlds Depression ("PWD").
Victory Bell
Member
These cards are not impossible to get. If the #1/2/3 trainers had some fantastic effect then i'd call that unfair to the common people. But really, they're called WORLDS promos for a reason. Japan gives exclusive promos out all the time. TONS of their promos are quite playable (at least more so than Beach) and also sometimes quite a bit rarer (think Esp/Umby*) These rare cards should never be broken-good (they never are), average/playable works just fine.
It's a trading card game. If you could buy the entire set of promos (which you pretty much can lol) wheres the fun in collecting/trading/buying/selling?
And these things would be a whole heck of a lot less special if everyone could get them like they could a black-star. Stamp or no stamp. ><
It's a trading card game. If you could buy the entire set of promos (which you pretty much can lol) wheres the fun in collecting/trading/buying/selling?
And these things would be a whole heck of a lot less special if everyone could get them like they could a black-star. Stamp or no stamp. ><
Otaku
Active Member
Before I begin dissecting the post I quoted, let me ad that
1) I am annoyed by this level of exclusivity on any card that is unique in its effects. Its the principle of the thing, and if I really never have squawked about it before, it was an oversight on my part.
2) Have we considered releasing a different card with an identical effect? Not an ideal solution in general, but at least in this instance it is at least unlikely someone would need to run more than four copies. This isn't a solution to the underlying problem, but addresses the immediate symptoms.
Now for Victory Bell's post:
Any card that exists isn't impossible to get. In this case we have a card with a very, very low supply compounded by it being part of a multi-lingual collection. Even people who have a single copy would have to risk ruining their set (and adding a bitter taint to their wonderful Worlds memories) by running the promo.
Support this point. I oppose any cards that are legal for play only being distributed in this manner. As for the fact that Japan does it... so what? Do you realize how many wrong things are considered tolerable to good if you hunt hard enough among the different cultures? If they pull that garbage over here not only will they lose someone who regularly encourages others to play, I'll make sure to start warning people away.
This part of your post is wrong on multiple levels. First and foremost, if everyone wishes to procure this card they can't. The supply is extremely low. That's the point. There are people who can't regularly attend Pokemon League but can easily get the needed promos because enough of those promos are made and distributed. Second making it possible to purchase a product does not remove the enjoyment of pursuing cards through the secondary market.
Does every unstamped one come with memories of participating in Worlds? That's the only "special" part I care about preserving.
1) I am annoyed by this level of exclusivity on any card that is unique in its effects. Its the principle of the thing, and if I really never have squawked about it before, it was an oversight on my part.
2) Have we considered releasing a different card with an identical effect? Not an ideal solution in general, but at least in this instance it is at least unlikely someone would need to run more than four copies. This isn't a solution to the underlying problem, but addresses the immediate symptoms.
Now for Victory Bell's post:
Any card that exists isn't impossible to get. In this case we have a card with a very, very low supply compounded by it being part of a multi-lingual collection. Even people who have a single copy would have to risk ruining their set (and adding a bitter taint to their wonderful Worlds memories) by running the promo.
Support this point. I oppose any cards that are legal for play only being distributed in this manner. As for the fact that Japan does it... so what? Do you realize how many wrong things are considered tolerable to good if you hunt hard enough among the different cultures? If they pull that garbage over here not only will they lose someone who regularly encourages others to play, I'll make sure to start warning people away.
This part of your post is wrong on multiple levels. First and foremost, if everyone wishes to procure this card they can't. The supply is extremely low. That's the point. There are people who can't regularly attend Pokemon League but can easily get the needed promos because enough of those promos are made and distributed. Second making it possible to purchase a product does not remove the enjoyment of pursuing cards through the secondary market.
Does every unstamped one come with memories of participating in Worlds? That's the only "special" part I care about preserving.
AyameHikaru
Active Member
Another idea. Probably too late for it to go into effect, but still.
World championship decks. Few 'competitive' players buy them, because the cards in them are all unplayable in tournaments. New players buy them, and then are disappointed they can't play their new cards. So, here's an idea. Make EACH deck 61 cards. 60 cards with the WC backs, non-tournament legal. The last card is chosen by the person who played that deck. One card from their deck, any one card, with a normal, tournament-legal, back. Give 'em a special stamp or make them a different numbered promo, but have them be playable. Maybe even have them signed? (I know signed cards aren't currently allowed.) The benefits are several.
1. New players/non-competitive players can get a head start on building the deck themselves. "Here's what the deck is, and hey! Here's a key card from it to get you started!"
2. Price control. Include a Yanmega Prime in the WC decks, and all of a sudden maybe people won't be so happy to shell out $40-60 for it. Making GOOD cards available to players without deep pockets is always nice.
3. Relevance to the current issue - If, perhaps, a certain Master's deck is printed in WC deck form, guess what card he could choose? Guess what card was in his deck? That's right, there's your Tropical Beach.
4. Uniqueness. By making them NOT the exact same card, but a different stamp/promo/whatever, the integrity of the original is kept. Think of it like tin promos - since you can be guaranteed to get one, the price is basically always lower for a tin promo than the card from the set itself. Those who want to shell out a bit more to get the one that was handed out at Worlds can, those who can't afford to get one that way can get the less special one.
5. Rule of cool. Players can have fun, display their personality with their choice. How awesome would it be to have a decision like that handed to you? "So, now that you've won, what card will be your promo?" "Well, since I was playing Donphan Prime/Zoroark, the most important card in my deck is my choice. SWITCH!" Maybe you could even include a little paper from the player, explaining why they chose that card above the others.
All in all, I think it would turn WC decks into something that people look forward to, more than just to get the decklist.
World championship decks. Few 'competitive' players buy them, because the cards in them are all unplayable in tournaments. New players buy them, and then are disappointed they can't play their new cards. So, here's an idea. Make EACH deck 61 cards. 60 cards with the WC backs, non-tournament legal. The last card is chosen by the person who played that deck. One card from their deck, any one card, with a normal, tournament-legal, back. Give 'em a special stamp or make them a different numbered promo, but have them be playable. Maybe even have them signed? (I know signed cards aren't currently allowed.) The benefits are several.
1. New players/non-competitive players can get a head start on building the deck themselves. "Here's what the deck is, and hey! Here's a key card from it to get you started!"
2. Price control. Include a Yanmega Prime in the WC decks, and all of a sudden maybe people won't be so happy to shell out $40-60 for it. Making GOOD cards available to players without deep pockets is always nice.
3. Relevance to the current issue - If, perhaps, a certain Master's deck is printed in WC deck form, guess what card he could choose? Guess what card was in his deck? That's right, there's your Tropical Beach.
4. Uniqueness. By making them NOT the exact same card, but a different stamp/promo/whatever, the integrity of the original is kept. Think of it like tin promos - since you can be guaranteed to get one, the price is basically always lower for a tin promo than the card from the set itself. Those who want to shell out a bit more to get the one that was handed out at Worlds can, those who can't afford to get one that way can get the less special one.
5. Rule of cool. Players can have fun, display their personality with their choice. How awesome would it be to have a decision like that handed to you? "So, now that you've won, what card will be your promo?" "Well, since I was playing Donphan Prime/Zoroark, the most important card in my deck is my choice. SWITCH!" Maybe you could even include a little paper from the player, explaining why they chose that card above the others.
All in all, I think it would turn WC decks into something that people look forward to, more than just to get the decklist.
Wow... That was really well done and thought out. +1 vote, for what it's worth.
Victory Bell
Member
First, by impossible I meant more on #1 trainer impossible. As in totally out of reach for most people to acquire unless one has a large amount of money to spend on an unplayable Pokemon card.
Also this level of distribution would destroy the secondary market for this card imo. Just like league promos did for Tomb (Not so much DCE and Uxie). This would essentially bring the price of stamped ones down while the non stamped ones would be dirt cheap. It's not as playable or in demand as Promo Croak was for example. The price for a card would very rarely go above it's initial sale price by the distributor. So the Non stamped ones would be very cheap (as any other regular black-star would be) while the stamped ones would be slightly more, though I think they would go down by quite a bit in price. Any player who needs this card for a deck would just go get a non stamped one. Any collector (who only cares about filling a blank in their black-star collection) would also get a non stamped one. Only the rare collector who WANTS the card for the stamp would bother getting the stamped version off a worlds competitor. Thus lowering the market value for Tropical Beach for both the common collector and the player. Personally, some people like completing their collections and would love to have a cheap black-star on the market. I think that some cards SHOULD be kept rare. Other wise a complete collection is full of 2-3 dollar cards with nothing special. For a dedicated collector, having a worlds promo not available to the general market would set that persons collection apart from the rest. IMO. Personal opinion (after all there is no precedent for a situation like this in America)
This is not a card that all players need to be competitive. It does not need to be distributed to all players. There is also no NEED for this card. I could never play it my entire life and still be at the level of competitiveness I am today. If it were the second Uxie then maybe not... but we don't have to worry about that do we.
It's supply in demand. That's all that raises the price to a level considered "expensive". Who knows. There may not even BE a demand nullifying this whole issue.
Also this level of distribution would destroy the secondary market for this card imo. Just like league promos did for Tomb (Not so much DCE and Uxie). This would essentially bring the price of stamped ones down while the non stamped ones would be dirt cheap. It's not as playable or in demand as Promo Croak was for example. The price for a card would very rarely go above it's initial sale price by the distributor. So the Non stamped ones would be very cheap (as any other regular black-star would be) while the stamped ones would be slightly more, though I think they would go down by quite a bit in price. Any player who needs this card for a deck would just go get a non stamped one. Any collector (who only cares about filling a blank in their black-star collection) would also get a non stamped one. Only the rare collector who WANTS the card for the stamp would bother getting the stamped version off a worlds competitor. Thus lowering the market value for Tropical Beach for both the common collector and the player. Personally, some people like completing their collections and would love to have a cheap black-star on the market. I think that some cards SHOULD be kept rare. Other wise a complete collection is full of 2-3 dollar cards with nothing special. For a dedicated collector, having a worlds promo not available to the general market would set that persons collection apart from the rest. IMO. Personal opinion (after all there is no precedent for a situation like this in America)
This is not a card that all players need to be competitive. It does not need to be distributed to all players. There is also no NEED for this card. I could never play it my entire life and still be at the level of competitiveness I am today. If it were the second Uxie then maybe not... but we don't have to worry about that do we.
I disagree. It's a personal point I guess. No point in arguing with that.
Otaku
Active Member
So an arbitrary standard that really ignores the point? What is the threshold that matters? Two-of-a-kind okay? 100? 1000?
First, the term is "supply and demand". Second, you are describing a mechanism of the markets... which in no way justifies the card being a "unique" exclusive. Pardon the redundancy of my terminology, but I started using the combination earlier to describe a card given out in such a restricted manner that is also not reprinted elsewhere, so I may as well keep it up.
Again, I have two main responses: first while a more wide scale release would indeed drop prices, I don't consider that destroying the secondary market for the card. Second, I don't particularly care about the secondary market. While I don't wish for someone to arbitrarily suffer by a card losing value, speculation is what it is.
I have already stated I fundamentally disagree with you here and oppose any unique card being distributed solely in this manner. Granted, I am not especially fond of the rarity scheme we have for normal sets and would be fascinated to find out if anyone has studied the impact of card games where all cards are equally rare, or at the very least where different rarities are about something that doesn't impact actually playing the game (ignoring the "bling" factor an all rare deck can have). That is to say, higher rarities getting alternate artwork or special treatments (such as being a holo). That being said since I do not have the information on it I shall assume that it is at least incredibly risky if not sustainable given the modern distribution methods of TCGs.
Okay, seriously not to just seem like I am being argumentative here, but since this affects others I don't know if it can really be dismissed as just a personal point, and if it can then can't that be said of the entire discussion in which case you should probably stop responding to me? If this is what you believe, I won't even try to spin it as some petty "victory" since really, there is not such thing in a discussion like this save maintaining your integrity and not losing your cool... which I am neither implying you lost your cool nor suggesting that I have remained perfectly calm during the course of this discussion.
yoyofsho16
New Member
If you worked SOOOOO hard to get your card, you should be able to do it again on a completely even playing field.
Victory Bell
Member
So an arbitrary standard that really ignores the point? What is the threshold that matters? Two-of-a-kind okay? 100? 1000? No. I didn't say it did. Just I think the market could be EASILY controlled by a dealer in the case of something with a very good effect in a quantity of 100. or even 1000. 100 is crazy. Thats only a minimum of 100 players with said card. 1000 is about the minimum for something with an average effect i'd say. This card is NOT EVEN THAT GOOD. Cheren outclasses it in terms of solid draw. If I were Ross I wouldn't have even played it. In fact, this card is almost below average draw now. Seriously, did you really think that two of something would make it anymore obtainable to the general public than a one-of?
First, the term is "supply and demand" Pardon my fail. -.- Second, you are describing a mechanism of the markets... which in no way justifies the card being a "unique" exclusive. I know what you mean. But It's hardly exclusive. Sure, it's exclusive to worlds participants and staff. If I felt I needed this card for a deck (again, I don't) I could easily purchase one or more. It's no harder to purchase than Promo Croak was at Nats 2010. While it may be a chase card, there will always be people not needing them and willing to sell. It's not so rare as none will be on the market at any given time. Pardon the redundancy of my terminology, but I started using the combination earlier to describe a card given out in such a restricted manner that is also not reprinted elsewhere, so I may as well keep it up.
Again, I have two main responses: first while a more wide scale release would indeed drop prices, I don't consider that destroying the secondary market for the card. Second, I don't particularly care about the secondary market. While I don't wish for someone to arbitrarily suffer by a card losing value, speculation is what it is. I personally like the idea of having "chase" black-stars. I don't think completing a collection should be easy. And I don't think this card is game breaking, and again, I don't think everyone needs it. More personal opinion. Like it or don't like it, I'll give it out like candy
I have already stated I fundamentally disagree with you here and oppose any unique card being distributed solely in this manner. Granted, I am not especially fond of the rarity scheme we have for normal sets and would be fascinated to find out if anyone has studied the impact of card games where all cards are equally rare, or at the very least where different rarities are about something that doesn't impact actually playing the game (ignoring the "bling" factor an all rare deck can have). That is to say, higher rarities getting alternate artwork or special treatments (such as being a holo). That being said since I do not have the information on it I shall assume that it is at least incredibly risky if not sustainable given the modern distribution methods of TCGs. That'd be really interesting actually, to see what happens with a set of all commons or something. Not particularly relevant to this topic as it's a promo we're talking about but whatever.
Okay, seriously not to just seem like I am being argumentative here, but since this affects others I don't know if it can really be dismissed as just a personal point, and if it can then can't that be said of the entire discussion in which case you should probably stop responding to me? If this is what you believe, I won't even try to spin it as some petty "victory" since really, there is not such thing in a discussion like this save maintaining your integrity and not losing your cool... which I am neither implying you lost your cool nor suggesting that I have remained perfectly calm during the course of this discussion.
Replys in Bold. But I'm done here. It's hardly the public's choice to make. P!P has to do the marketing/printing/considering, not us.
Which is why i stopped collecting black star promo cards. I find it ridiculous that i'd have to spend large amounts of cash on a card that is supposed to promote the game.
So in 2005, when 2 Black Star promos came out that were not obtainable to the non-Worlds competitors (would it have been too much to make non-stamped versions like 2004 or to not make them Black Star promos?) i stopped collecting Black Star promos. The 3 sets i was going for my boys.
Saved $100s if not $1,000s.
As for the latest one, keep it as a World's promo so i won't have to start up again.
cookymonster
New Member
i think mass producing this card will devalue the stamped card value because theres a lot of people that want that card and wont really care if its stamped or not and me as a collector in a budget i would rather spend 5 bucks for a non stamped card than spend 50 maybe more on a stamped card since some people just want it for theyre black star collection and what not so the demand will ultimately decrease along with the price of the card please tell me if im wrong
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