Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The Best in the Game

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I've seen a bunch of these threads in the past few years, and I think realized a few weeks ago something that, however small, is a huge thing: people don't know their own decklists.

I'm amazed with how many people I ask what their list looks like and they say "well I run 2 or 3 of these, actually maybe only 1." Not just for 1 or 2 cards, but for a lot of them. If you don't know your list by heart, you're never going to win. I could recite decklist after decklist, even some from years ago. You have to know your deck and be comfortable with it-it's the same with any other competitive game or sport. If a baseball player doesn't know the feel of his glove, than he will not be very successful.

And for people who think they have to sit down and stare at your list to memorize it, I don't really think that's it either. If you play even a few games with it you should pick up exactly what is in the deck-even if you have never seen the list on paper. This leads to my next point, which is calculating opponent's decklists.

In a swiss round it's harder to do, but in matchplay definitely, good players, at the end of their game(s) could write down probably 90% of their opponent's decklist. That's what it takes-you have to use the information you know and make educated guesses to how many of each card your opponent plays. A simple example is playing vs Dusknoir. You figure they run the DP Dusknoir so you 3 bench. I played against a Dusknoir deck a few weeks ago and I did this, only to see Dusknoir SF1, SF2, Promo, and Lv. X come out. After I saw the last Dusknoir came out I immediately filled my bench. Things like this, but on a much more acute and subtle scale are necessary to become a great player.

Another example of that was watching Ross play one of the Brander brothers at Worlds. Ross guessed almost his exact list after playing the other Brander brother earlier in the day, and was able to use that information and almost win because he knew how many Energy, etc. he played.

So, in conclusion, know your decklist and make educated guesses on your opponent's list, and you will be successful.

I haven't played in a tourny ever in pokemon, but I'm a pretty good yugioh player and two of my friends are considered pros at yugioh.

What separates them from me and the public is one they can bluff, adjust to different playstyles, read their opponent's dam well, have played versus every match up and able to compete against the meta, know the right play, and able to limit the luck factor of yugioh by just using shear skill. The thing that separates my best friend(jerry's apprentice) and jerry wang(one of the best in the game) is that jerry is able to determine all the outs his opponent has, able to remember their opponent's graveyard, and know the odds of what his opponent has in just a few seconds and show no emotion regardlessof the situation.

The key to mastering any card game is to be able to know all the odds, determine your opponent's outs, and able to simply outplay people regardless of your situation.

As jerry wang has told me and my friends, "the point of me playing yugioh is to make money and just to simply outplay people and make them look like scrubs"
 
well, to me if a player is ranked extremely high and they used the BDIF to get there, i dont think they deserve to be one of the best. if you play the BDIF once just to win some cards, then make a good rogueish deck and win with it, then your a good player.

Conclusion: You're obviously not a good player.
 
I don't even like the term 'misplay' or the thought that someone can play a game perfectly. Every action has a million choices, and what someone deems the 'right play' could be the absolutely wrong play if they knew what was in the opponent's hand, or knew what they would draw next turn. Because of that, I don't feel there is a black and white 'play' and 'misplay', but instead a huge area of gray 'decent' and 'stupid' plays.

I believe luck plays the biggest role in who is deemed 'the best in the game'. I think there is a certain point where people either play correctly or play incorrectly and after that luck controls how well the players do. I know there will be people that disagree with my view of it, but in all the years I've played, I can remember many more times where I've been knocked out of the Top Cut or lost a crucial game because of a bad matchup, or a lack of supporters/draw than times where I didn't do well because I made stupid moves.

I can't control it if I don't draw into a supporter after 10 turns, and I can't control it when I get paired up with a deck that has a certain attack that can pretty much guarantee their win against my deck. Those things are out of my control and are 99% of the reason (in my opinion) why I don't do as well.

What I feel doesn't put shame to those that have done well, though. Those players had to have plenty of skill to get to where they did, and they should definitely feel proud of themselves.


I agree with you, to an extent. However, when you say you get matched up against a bad deck for your deck or dead draw for 10+ turns, that's something that can be remedied (again only to an extent) in deckbuilding. Many of the players who have been successful make their decks as consistent as possible while still maintaining balance as well as pick the decks and tech them right so as to have the best matchups vs the most amount of decks out there.
 
Conclusion: You're obviously not a good player.

Another great informative post by Ardoptres..... >.>

You all should take play style in acount. Some like to play good rogues over BDIF's and some are even able to win with the rogues! besides, it's not like we got Gardelade all over again.
 
I'm not an amazing player by any means...

I think some key things are not to Over-Tech....
Another things is that after certain sets a deck may not be viable for a little while.....
In DX-ON format RaiEggs was still good during States, but after Regionals RaiEggs people teched well against it and after Daimond and Pearl the Power Creep was so huge... it couldn't come back....
Also Sportsmanship...:thumb:
 
Test decks, find the decks flaws, adjust lists to deal with flaws, practice, find decks flaws....lol I should try that more often. :x
 
Another great informative post by Ardoptres..... >.>

You all should take play style in acount. Some like to play good rogues over BDIF's and some are even able to win with the rogues! besides, it's not like we got Gardelade all over again.

Justin, they guy was flat out saying that using the BDIF made you a bad player. Yes, you can be a good player and use rogue decks, but you will NEVER be a great player if you refuse to use archetypes.


Prime, I partly agree with you on that. In every top cut I've ever been in I either get paired up with an atoloss, or lose due to bad luck. (lost to mag on a coinflip at states...)

However, its not completely luck. While there is NOTHING you can do to stop the 1 random player using your atolose from getting paired up against you, you can take steps to ensure that the rest of your matchups are in your favor. Trust me I HATE the 1 random deck that just so happens to be what ever I'm playing for the day. Heck, I seem to be a magnet for them...
BUT you really can improve your chances at winning if you make your deck so it has as few weaknesses as possible, so you can win the rest of your matches. Hopefully the one random deck wont make the cut (sadly they always seem to find me there >.<) and odds are most of them wont, just for the fact that random decks are rarely do well.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Test decks, find the decks flaws, adjust lists to deal with flaws, practice, find decks flaws....lol I should try that more often. :x

Ahhh... the joys of deck building.

After a few days of doing that it can start to drive you crazy. Actually... if you want to memorize something REALLY well (like be able to say it forwards, back wards, and name which cards are holo and which arn't... lol) try testing decks like this.
 
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Being around nearly all of the top players in the game, I can tell you that most will say the same things. Make correct deck choices, make good lists, and practice against better players.

The thing that really makes a good player a great player is the ability to play out the match a number of turns ahead of time. Most people can build a solid deck and get it to work, meaning they know what to do to get it set up. The best players are those who are reactive, those who can see a situation arising and figure out what to do before it even happens. Finally, the best players will find some way to put an opponent in an uncomfortable spot, forcing THEM to make a tough decision. Most of the great players don't win by not misplaying, they just force their opponent to misplay more by putting them in tough spots.
 
Most of the great players don't win by not misplaying, they just force their opponent to misplay more by putting them in tough spots.

Ah, I think that's one of the most key things to being a great player. Great way to sum it up. Most of the top tier players aren't even THAT good. It's just 98% of Pokemon players are awful when put into tough situations, like Alvis says.
 
i think i am a good player, but i am held back because of not having anyone in my family that plays...
 
but you will NEVER be a great player if you refuse to use archetypes.

Not exactly true. Jimmy Ballard is one of the top players in the game, and he never uses archetypes. There are several other people who have found success with rogues.

A top player can do these things:
1) Build a consistent deck
2) Build a deck that is successful in the current metagame
3) Know their deck inside and out
4) Know how to play key matchups that may come up throughout the tournament

So as long as you can do those things, it doesn't matter what you play, you can still be successful. Most people who refuse to use archetypes aren't necessarily bad players, their rogues just don't counter the metagame well enough.
 
i had only one time with archtypes. the rest i mostly used rougues unless i am testing an archtype to see how it works
 
There are a lot of things that go into being a great player. Awareness of your deck/opponents deck, knowledge of matchup whether with testing or just as theory, knowing the metagame, thinking ahead etc. There's too many things to name, but I feel like I beat a lot of people by just out thinking them. Not just that I've come up with a better strategy, but I've thought more about the matchup as I head into it (mostly from my own testing of that matchup). I have a very good idea as the game develops of how I can win the matchup (and how I can lose it). Most other people I think play to the turn they're on. They know to evolve to Claydol, draw cards and attack for as much as they can do. And a lot of times, this is enough to win. But quite often, my preparation for certain matchups whether in decklist or in strategy eventually gets me the win. And you can extend this into deck choice in general. A lot of decks look good, but if you don't test them you aren't prepared for what you will face. So for the question of rogues, why doesn't a good player play a rogue and make it win? He's a good player because he has tested, and knows before the battle that it will not win. And certainly some good rogues are developed, and props to the people who make them, because that is one of the better challenges in this game.
 
I think luck is a much smaller factor than a lot of people think.

Let's say you just went 3-2 at Cities and didn't make the top cut. Often, you'll feel that you were just out of luck - in both of the two matches you lost, the matches were very close, and you were down to your last prize, and you just missed that Wager/energy drop/coin flip/topdeck draw that could have given you the win. So, just bad luck, right? It could easily have gone the other way in both matches, and you'd been 5-0 - right?

But what people fail to realize in these situations, was that if you had been a better player, or if your deck was better, or if you just had practised/playtested more, you never would have gotten into those close situations in the first place. You would not have gotten to a point were it was all so close that luck would be the final, deciding factor.

The best players usually won't get into those luck-determined situations because they played better in the time that led up to that situation. I don't mean that the best players never get into any situation where luck is the deciding factor, though: From my experience, the best players are always willing to take risks when the stakes are high. Having the guts to take a risk is also part of the recipe to success.
 
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Most important trait? Have the last name Fulop.

In all honesty, there are alot of things that go into being a great player. I break it down into key broad categories: In game playing, deck building, and metagaming. All are equally important at the end of the day. In game playing simply means how well you handle your in game moves. Don't make mistakes, know all of your matchups. KNOW PROBABILITY. WELL. The # of times per game you need to try and get a card, or figure out odds your opponent has a card, or if they can draw into a few cards to "go off" is incredible. Multiple times almost every game you need to make choices that probability influences. The decisions may not be terribly relevant every time, but are often enough that this is critical to learn to do. It gives you a useful edge. Most of the times I end up taking a long turn, almost the only times, is when I am working out odds. Many times when luck is involved, unless you have a read on someone, or think you do, probability is the best judge of what the right moves are. Many decisions take into place alot of different factors that need addressed. To play well and do all of these calculations quickly is difficult, but gets easier the more you play. ALSO pointing to the previous point, KNOW YOUR DECK LISTS. And try and figure out your opponents. All of this is needed towards your calculations. Mikey is 100% accurate with that. I can USUALLY come EXTREMELY close to knowing an opponents exact list by the end of a match with them. You can usually even make blind assumptions based on a format: Assume a stage 2 deck has 4 RC, 4 Bebe, 4 Roseanne, 2-2 Claydol, at least one Uxie, etc.

On the topic of in game decisions: Ross nailed it. Alot of players can play a game turn by turn. Yet one of the things I feel I excel at is playing a matchup. Know the "whole picture". Know the general way matchups flow. Know what type of board positioning favors your deck,a nd what favors theres. Know key turning points in the game, and what, theoretically each deck wants from that point. Than, work your entire game plan around making sure those vital points favor you. THIS is a huge difference between a solid, and a good player.

Next point: deck building. Some people are better at it than others. Someone said some players are good players, but bad deck builders, or vice versa. I disagree. If your a great deck builder, you are at the very least going to be a good player. Not great, but at least good. There is not a player in this game who can claim to be a great deck builder without understanding the very specific fine tuned points of competitive playing. Unless they just blindly get lucky on every build. It doesn't make sense at all for them to be. A good player can be BETTER at making a deck than at playing, but there is rarely a great difference between the two.

A number of things go into building a deck. You need to focus on consistancy, yet also making sure to have options. Make sure your deck does what it wants to do as quickly and often as possible, while making sure what that thing is actual wins games. You need a balance between consistency and speed. Have a goal for your decks win condition. Some decks benefit off of being fast, and disruptive. Others aim towards an inevitable set up that overpowers most other decks. Some decks want to have an answer to all of the other popular decks. Focus your deck. Pick either a strong Pokemon and focus around it ( Kingdra for example ) or pick a couple that have inherent synergy that combo together ( Emp w Bronzong, for example ) and make sure the other pokemon support it. An example of a BAD combination of Pokemon? Machamp Lucario from a few years ago. Machamp was a good pokemon. As was Lucario. Yet what synergy did they have? They used the same energy types? They both served the same purpose: attack. They didn't cover any of their weaknesses. They were utterly redundant. If anything, you'd want to run a different type Pokemon to cover any of your weaknesses. "Doubling Up" on two attackers of the same type is rarely a good decision.

Now onto the third and final point: Metagaming. You can play near flawlessly. You can make a great list. Maybe even the best list possible for a given deck. Yet you can walk into an event and get steamrolled. You need to know how well a deck fits in with the other viable and popular decks. There is a difference between making a smart choice, and making the BEST choice. It isn't that difficult to make a smart deck choice. That should be your goal. You can, and should, expect that of yourself. Making the BEST choice is extremely difficult. After an event, you can always look back and think to yourself what deck would have given you the best opportunity to take first. Worlds 2005 for example? Muk EX would have been the correct play. Worlds 2007? Metanite with Sceptile d EX. You have to predict what decks will be played, and how they interact, and play a deck that will beat the other decks that will do well.

A few examples: In Worlds 2005, I made a terrible deck choice. I went with Rock Lock. Here was my thinking: The BDIF was Medicham. Medicham was pretty hard for Rock Lock to beat. I knew Rock Lock pretty well, and I wasn't that comfortable with Medicham. I was debating what decks to use, and had issues finding a strong counter vs Medicham that would beat the rest of the format, or at least hold up. I expected many of the players to either be afraid to use Medicham due to mirror match, or some archtype phobia ( I LOVE when players refuse to use good decks: please, keep it up ) or that they would be running decks aimed to BEAT it. Therefore, I went with a gamble: Rock Lock lost to Medicham, but I had a number of reasons to suspect it would be a fine choice none the less: I expected Medicham to be hated against, and therefore not do as well as it did at nationals. I expected people to play less of it out of fear. I could afford as many as 2 losses to it. So ASSUMING I didn't get paired against 3 of them, and not be able to win at least one, it was a loss I'd be willing to take. I also knew that against every deck except Medicham, that Rock Lock was by far the strongest choice: I gave up one matchup for the sake of being extremely strong everywhere else. This also meant that any deck that was good against Medicham would likely get torn apart by Rock Lock. I made my gamble. What happened? Medicham got played, and it did well. Nidoqueen, the most successful of the counters to Medicham, convienently did very well against Rock Lock as well. So Rock Lock turned out to be a poor choice. Yet, I feel I was justified in my theory behind choosing it. It didn't pay off, but even looking back, I had no regret about my choice. Muk EX would have beaten Rock Lock, Nidoqueen, and Medicham, the three biggest threats. It also would have done well against ZRE, which Go had used. I feel that of the decks present, he should have done the best, if not won. He made a great choice.

Great players can make bad metagaming choices. Worlds 2007, Jason K used Banette. He is arguably the best,a nd unarguably the most successful player the game has ever seen. It is one of the hardest parts of the game to master. You need to be able to know the format as a whole, not merely your deck. You need to guess what other people will play as well. The more information you have, the better you will be. Metagaming also involves knowing how to tweak your deck accordingly. A great example of this would be my efforts with LBS in 2006. I ran a number of tech cards, and I would switch between them depending on what I felt would be popular at any given event. LBS was extremely hated against, so I had to remain one step ahead of everyone else with techs to keep it viable. This is the case with many decks.

Sometimes, regardless of tech options, and regardless of how comfortable you feel with a deck, and regardless of how powerful it is, a format turns against a deck, and you need to play something else. There are points where your fighting a losing battle to keep your deck viable, when it would be better to switch to a new deck entirely.

Onto the lovely debate of rogue vs archetype. Archetypes are archetypes for a reason: They win. Consistantly. 99% of rogue decks are bad. Unless you are 100% confident that your deck is extremely good, and you have tested all of the key matchups against GOOD players, stick with something proven. It is easy to be misguided about the results from rogue testing: Many players are bad ( quoted Matt Alvis! ). One of the defining differences between an average or bad player and a good one is the ability to adapt. You notice this at Nats, and Worlds often: A player does well against matchups they have tested, but against new decks, or new techs, they play very poorly. The good players will do fine against them. This happen alot with Delta ( Raichu Eggs ) at Nats 06. This is the main reason behind the "Secret Deck" phenomena. Secret decks are rarely the best choices. Yet they overperform because players are bad. An example would be with the deck Jimmy Ballard unveiled at Nats 2007. Jimmy is arguably the best rogue player/deckbuilder in the game. The Empoleon deck he brought in force to Nats 2007, despite not winning, performed rather well. Well enough to test it rather considerably after the event: It did very poorly for my testing team. It turned out to be roughly 50-50 vs Infernape, borderline unable to beat metanite, and terrible against Speed Spread. Yet it tore up most of those matchups throughout the day by surprise, and player inadequacy. This is not a slam against Jimmy at all: Hes produced a number of great decks, and even decks that may not be ideal have been at the very least solid. Sometimes a format has an opening where a rogue deck can slide in and be one of the best decks, but a number of times, much more often than not, this isn't the case. Play a rogue deck when a rogue deck is better than the BDIFs. If it isn't, don't play it to prove something. All it will prove is you made a bad deck choice. It doesn't make you a better player if you succeed with a bad deck.
 
Great Post Chris.

Elite 4 reputation is well earned. An elite player eats up net deckers, because they know the opponent deck better than them most of the time. They don't make misplays, and the misplays that they complain about are subtle that most average players wouldn't be aware off. Usually an energy placement that isn't needed because they are thinking turns ahead of the current one.

But I am one that think certain players have "IT". "IT" is the ability to deeply think through the match up, think turns ahead of the opponent, instantly develope counter strategies if road blocks appear. I think you can give great decks to good to average players, and they will win with it. The elite players will win the punching matches. I remember reading Ross's World's 2005 deck report of his TTAR. Gave great insight on how great players think through match ups, uses notes, and just operate at a different level. Watching Ness for years, it was obvious to some of the elder players that he was probably the best player out there. That was before him winning 2 out of the last 3 worlds. Some folks just operate at a higher level.
 
There are quite a few differences between beginners, good players, advanced payers and top players.

I will compare to my experiences in chess:

New players will not have any idea of what they are doing. They will not have their openings, midgames and endgame strategies in their heads. They will play any opening, develop bad pieces and overall leave the board in a mess for their opponent to clean up. Beginners will make bad mistakes and lose valuable pieces throughout the game.

On the Pokemon table, a new player will not have a good strategy. They will not have the best deck. Of course, they might have a brother/sister who has made for them a great deck, but what is the point of having a deck when you can't use it? Beginners will also make bad plays.


A good player will make less mistakes on the chessboard. They will know 1-2 or possibly 3 openings for each colour and will be able to stay in the game for longer than a beginner. The will make less mistakes and when they get in a bad situation they may find a way out.

On the Pokemon table, a good player will have prepared a fairly good deck and will have a fighting chance in battles. They will make less mistakes and will generally keep a better overall game. They might get into a bad situation but might turn it into a win - or not.


An advanced player will have a lot of openings prepared annd will have thorough knowledge of possible things that his/her opponent may try to do. The player will make a maximum of maybe 5 mistakes in a game, and will think out every move. They will be able to easily wrench themselves out of a bad position and get the win quickly.

On the Pokemon table, an advanced player will be using a very good archetype, rogue or a very consistent deck they they created. They will be able to predict their opponent's attacks and counter them well. They will misplay every now and then, but will be able to either get out of the bad position that they put themselves in or use it to their advantage. They will also take opportunities and win the game when they can.


An expert chess player will know exactly what their opponent will do. They will have researched and prepared for many days. When they reach the venue for the game they will sit down and carefully make every move. They will use every possible opportunity to crush the opponent and never let any opening in their opponent's armor be filled. When they finally get an advantage they will quickly smother the opponent and win the game.

Expert Pokemon players take a lot of care in preparing their decks. They look at what most people use in their area and devise plans to counter. When competitions start they will think out every move, almost never making a mistake. When they see that they have a chance at a win they will immediately take it and consolidate. If they get an advantage they won't let it slip and they will try as hard as possible to win as fast as they can.


I think that says it.
 
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the whole issue of self-confidence. It generally gets left out in these sorts of discussions, but I think it deserves a mention.

I don't believe that any of the game's greatest players allow themselves to be beaten before the match starts, no matter whose name is across from theirs on the pairings sheet. I suspect that for those players, the first thing that runs through their mind upon seeing that a particularly tough competitor is their next opponent is the matchup and how to play it, never a shred of panic or worry.

This resolve doesn't even have to come from the recognition that they're one of the game's best, although I suspect that many of them do use that knowledge to keep self-defeat at bay. I think that anybody looking to improve their game can learn to discard those kinds of thoughts and be better for it.
 
What SuperWooper just said about the importance of disregarding nerves/intimidation/insecurity etc. in favor of keeping an objective view of the match-up at all times is very true. Yes, you are playing against an actual person who may possess amazing skill, but you are playing against a specific deck at the same time that you should know how to play against (barring something very rogue, in which case you'd just play smart and think on your feet) and if you lose sight of that and get psyched out then you are immediately giving your opponent an edge before the game even begins.

A great player should always play every game as if he or she was facing the best possible opponent anyway, bringing 100% to the match at all times, so to actually be up against one should not cause an aneurysm. It should be expected, especially at bigger events like Nationals (particularly during top cut) and Worlds, where virtually everyone on the roster is a quality player.
 
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