For the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone regards this deck as tier one, or even tier two. The deck has virtually no late game, and in testing has gotten steamrolled by ReshiBoar and Magneboar. It needs pluspowers to kill Reshiram and Magnezone, while Reshiram doesn't need a PP to revenge kill and Magnezone doesn't need one period. Donphan/Machamp wrecks it as well, and there's nothing you can tech for the matchup to make it favorable. Why would anyone hype this for Nats? It's the kind of deck that makes you 4-5. Calling it here, there will be no Zekrom in top sixteen.
The Hype of Zekrom
- Thread starter InnoceNt
- Start date
I think a major part of the hype surrounding Zekrom was Pokemon Catcher. You're right that it has little to no late game, but when you Catcher up your opponents weaker Pokemon, late game doesn't matter as much. I expect to see a resurgence of the deck once Catcher is released in the US.
I think djjoe brings up some interesting comments in his blog post, "I'd rather be donked" when he discusses the strength of high HP basics like Reshiram, Zekrom, and the next ones to come out.
It's hard to one-shot-KO if you don't have it's weakness and it can "rage" you back for whatever you just did + 20 damage.
And it has energy acceleration behind it, much like Reshiram has fire-based energy acceleration and the water dragon has Feraligatr Prime support, meaning that it can be setup quickly and could end the game before late game comes.
It's hard to one-shot-KO if you don't have it's weakness and it can "rage" you back for whatever you just did + 20 damage.
And it has energy acceleration behind it, much like Reshiram has fire-based energy acceleration and the water dragon has Feraligatr Prime support, meaning that it can be setup quickly and could end the game before late game comes.
Ryuzaki_Lawliet
New Member
Tornadus will make this deck a lot better...
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
I think a lot of people are dismissing it unfairly.
Naki Feralkin
New Member
I have this deck made myself, and while it definitely excels at that early game shenanigans, I've found more often than not, the turn 1 donk doesn't happen. Granted you can play Tyrogue to get an early prize off a Cleffa while setting up, but I've found it to be more of a hassle to get the T1 donk than anything.
I've won a few late games with my list, but its such a trip, like even harder than winning with late game Sablelock. And that was against mediocre decks. Against Reshiboar/Reshityph/Magneboar/Donphan, they just became too overpowering late game.
Theres no real reason for it to be dismissed. Its a Tier 1 deck, but it is without question the weakest Tier 1 deck.
Its still tier 1 in the fact that it can disrupt most of those said decks early on, and that it can easily beat most non meta decks, but I don't think its extremely powerful, either.
I'm also beginning to find these: "Deck X is not powerful because Pokegym said so" topics to be rather unnerving. I'm seeing people knocking Magneboar/Reshiboar/Reshiphlosion/etc because they say said matchup is bad, when it hasn't even been tested in a nationals based meta yet. You may play one deck your way, but I may play it differently in a way to improve my matchup. Save the crap talk for after nationals, please.
I've won a few late games with my list, but its such a trip, like even harder than winning with late game Sablelock. And that was against mediocre decks. Against Reshiboar/Reshityph/Magneboar/Donphan, they just became too overpowering late game.
Theres no real reason for it to be dismissed. Its a Tier 1 deck, but it is without question the weakest Tier 1 deck.
Its still tier 1 in the fact that it can disrupt most of those said decks early on, and that it can easily beat most non meta decks, but I don't think its extremely powerful, either.
I'm also beginning to find these: "Deck X is not powerful because Pokegym said so" topics to be rather unnerving. I'm seeing people knocking Magneboar/Reshiboar/Reshiphlosion/etc because they say said matchup is bad, when it hasn't even been tested in a nationals based meta yet. You may play one deck your way, but I may play it differently in a way to improve my matchup. Save the crap talk for after nationals, please.
I'm going with Baby Mario on this one.
I hate to question the lists of those of you having issues with turn 1 bolt strike, but with my testing it's > 75% and nearly 100% turn two.
Thus isn't a deck to dismiss, when it goes off late game is not an issue because it does not exist. Often you are not taking 6 prizes, just KOing everything in the field.
It's not perfect yet, but as stated before it only gets better with the upcoming sets.
As for Nationals, I'm unsure how it will do, but I think there are going to be some surprises.
Posted with Mobile style...
I hate to question the lists of those of you having issues with turn 1 bolt strike, but with my testing it's > 75% and nearly 100% turn two.
Thus isn't a deck to dismiss, when it goes off late game is not an issue because it does not exist. Often you are not taking 6 prizes, just KOing everything in the field.
It's not perfect yet, but as stated before it only gets better with the upcoming sets.
As for Nationals, I'm unsure how it will do, but I think there are going to be some surprises.
Posted with Mobile style...
mewbreon
New Member
So, if I'm correct, you're speaking not from your OWN testing results, but from other people's YouTube videos and pokegym articles....
If you haven't actully created this deck (and I don't mean copy a bad list from a certain article and just play 10 hands-- I mean ACTUALLY create the deck, tweaking it for days until the build is as good as It can possibly be) then you can't actually have any clue as to how good/ bad it can really be.
Like misnos said above, my zekrom deck gets t1 around 75% of the time, and t2 virtually every game.
I'm not saying the zekrom is bdif, but it is absolutely a top deck.
Posted with Mobile style...
But the fact is, that flat out isn't true. Machamp/Donphan can OHKO it. Reshiram can OHKO it. Magneboar can OHKO it. Sure, it has energy acceleration, but lacks the consistent draw needed to get said energy. It's just flat out inferior to everything else.
---------- Post added 06/30/2011 at 12:48 PM ----------
Congratulations on posting everything I did not do and assuming I suck. I have built this and tested, not just netdecked the trash articles off the front page. Where did I ever say I was using other people's testing?
Heartgold22
New Member
Oh come on guys, let me live down that front page article:nonono: Oh and if someone can effectively put in Catcher and Archeops in their SpeedZekrom, it may just be BDIF:frown:
Machamp and Magnezone Prime can OHKO almost anything when they can deal 150 damage.
Minus the few popular cards right now, and the few cards that have it's weakness, not many cards can OHKO large legendaries like Zekrom and Reshiram. That is the whole point.
It's easy to say that the best decks in the format right now can handle them, but that is why they are the best decks in the format. The other cards that aren't being played aren't being played right now because they can't handle cards like Zekrom and Reshiram. It would be hard to argue that.
Compare Reshiram and Zekrom to Lugia EX. Lugia EX had 30 less HP, only one attack, a ridiculously costed attack (even if the holon pokemon made it much easier to power) to add to that, and double weakness. Your opponent got 2 prizes for knocking it out.
Reshiram and Zekrom only give one prize, have two attacks, one of which deals 120 for only one type of energy, and a rage attack to capitalize on any damage it takes since it's hard to OHKO for any card that isn't hiting it's weakness or dealing 150 damage.
Compared to Ho-oh Legend, it doesn't require needing two pieces to be put into play, can deal 20 more damage for 1 less energy, and can use it's first attack for any type of energy.
It's hard to argue that there isn't some form of "power creep" in these legendaries. That's the whole point. Not that there aren't any counters, just that the cards are at a higher level than a lot of the other pokemon.
In my testing, with a variety of speed Zekrom deck builds, I get between 40-55% T1-120. I'm very skeptical of those who say they can get >75% T1-120; I just can't see it happening that often. T1-120 requires 3 pokemon (with Shaymin played last) and 3 energy. Trying to fully maximize speed will mean abandoning cards like PlusPower (which would mean that the opponent's Zekrom/Reshiram will survive your attack), and including 4 Switch for those times when you are forced to start with Pachirisu/Shaymin/UnownDark active. Even then, I can't get T1-120 above 55% in practice deals.
But perhaps my mind just can't see the simple way it could be done.
Well you have to only play 2 Shaymin and 2 Pachirisu in order to reduce those starts. you also have to be very careful of your supporter choice.
I can say I have spent days upon days testing and taking cards out one at a time, and there is no room for a tech like Yanmega, you simply cannot afford the chance of having too many non-useful cards turn 1 in your hand. The deck is set up to donk and take early prizes and has NO late game. Its like gambling you either win big or you lose everything.
If the deck is set up JUST to attack 1st turn then that consistency is possible.
I can say I have spent days upon days testing and taking cards out one at a time, and there is no room for a tech like Yanmega, you simply cannot afford the chance of having too many non-useful cards turn 1 in your hand. The deck is set up to donk and take early prizes and has NO late game. Its like gambling you either win big or you lose everything.
If the deck is set up JUST to attack 1st turn then that consistency is possible.
Elite_4_Allen
New Member
Really Zekrom can't win unless it overpowers during early game.
In my opionion (and in a lot of other people's) Zekrom has a terrible late game, if your opponent drags it out that long you have almost zero options.
In my opionion (and in a lot of other people's) Zekrom has a terrible late game, if your opponent drags it out that long you have almost zero options.
I'm going on record right now. Anyone stating that they get the turn 1 >75% of the time (or even 50%) is lying. Period. Unless you've tested once, got lucky and extrapolated that is. As well, Good luck getting the 'donk' when you are running 8 basics and have to mull have the time, making it easy for your opponent to get 2 basics. Oh, right, and the 50% you don't go first.
The deck isn't terrible, but the only reason I can think to hype it is to get free wins at nats against the people who believe you.
The deck isn't terrible, but the only reason I can think to hype it is to get free wins at nats against the people who believe you.
mewbreon
New Member
Ok first off, it's "half", not "have". Don't use words like extrapolated to try and sound smart if your going to mess up the easy ones like "half"
Second, just because you can't build a consistent enough deck to get a fast start doesn't mean that WE are lying
Third, we don't run 8 basics. Every good zekrom deck plays cleffa
Posted with Mobile style...
Heartgold22
New Member
I would like to ask does anyone play tyrogue in their Zekrom? And I am pretty sure there is a few decks out there that can hit for t1 120 50%>