Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The LCQ - Why, Nintendo?

@ this thread

tl;dr

Single Elimination format seemed to be brought on to make it a bit easier for judges, but it made the entire experience A LOT more intense, and possibly unenjoyable by some people, specifically those who lost earlier on.

This was my first grinders, and while I made it to round 5 (top 64 I believe), which isn't bad at all for my first experience in a format like this, I still would have greatly enjoyed playing in a swiss format far more than the single elimination.
 
I wouldn't say it was abruptly stoped. They never said how many rounds, just how many got in. And most of the hate was back here on the gym.

They said right before the event started that there were going to be 5 rounds. There were rumors going around that they were going to only let 8 in Masters after this, although they didn't actually announce until before the start of Round 5, which is why everyone was (rightfully) upset.
 
But as far as the change in format from swiss to single elimination, I just don't see why they would even consider doing it. Let me explain this from a player's point of view.

Personally I prefer the new grinder's format. I played in Masters and lost my first round (didn't get the bye).

Grinders is a competition, therefore only the strongest will survive, whether it be skills or luck. You can't expect anything less from a "tournament".

First of all, I got in line for registration at around 10:15. The rounds for Juniors and Seniors didn't start until 3. If you got a first round bye, you had to wait until 4. That's a whole lot of waiting time. And that's usually okay for a huge tournament because you know you'll be rewarded with a lot of playing time. However, half the people didn't even get to play an hour. That's basically between 5 and 6 hours of waiting for most people, yet a large majority won't be playing more than 3 hours.

You will wait 5-6 hours regardless of it being a Swiss format or Elimination format. The majority will not be able to play more than 3 hours "in the tournament" though no one is stopping them from playing against other players if you truly enjoy the game and came for the experience. Also, it is better for you to realize when you have been eliminated instead of losing 1-2 games and try until the end to ultimately realize that you never stood a chance in the first place. So instead of wasting the whole day, the player has only wasted 3 hours. Again, if you truly enjoy the game, being eliminated should not stop you from just playing the game.

So when we finally started playing, the atmosphere was far more intense than most tournaments. In most large-scale tournaments, people talk about where they are from and stuff before rounds. People talked about that here too, but by far the main thing people were saying was how nervous they were. Nobody liked the new rules. And when I won games and matches, it didn't even feel rewarding. A couple of my opponents were on the verge of tears - I honestly felt bad about booting people from the tournament who most likely invested over a 1000 dollars to come here. And maybe I just have too much of a conscience, but when I was eliminated my opponent barely smiled when he was told there would be a top 16 cut instead of a top 8 and he had a spot in worlds. Maybe he was being a good sport, but he seemed to genuinely feel bad.

It is a competition, therefore the atmosphere will be intense. Everyone wants to win. Given that this is their last chance to qualify into Worlds (The biggest Pokemon tournament of the year), players will undoubtedly be more nervous than they are at other events.

Your opponents were on the verge of crying and it is right to feel bad for them. Though the real issue here is that your opponent could not handle a lost and that shows weak sportsmanship. The reason you would genuinely feel bad for beating someone is because your opponent is discontent with the outcome.

I also felt bad for losing but that was something I had already accounted for beforehand. When I lost, I congratulated my opponent and wished him the best of luck on his upcoming matches. He was happy in getting the win and there is no reason for me to take that away from him.

And people will say this is crazy because it's no different from a top cut. But it is very different. See, players who make it to the top cut have already accomplished something. So even if they lose in the first round, there's hardly a reason to feel bad. Players playing in a top cut have also played a good number of swiss rounds and probably had fun in those. Another huge difference is that most of the time players in the top cut are getting prizes. So when they walk away, they still have something to look forward to. Usually when I walk away from a top cut, I'm thinking about what cards I want to pull in my packs. When I walked away from the grinder, I just kept on thinking, "why did I play the damn PlusPower?" And it's not the first time a misplay has cost me - usually I just forget about it though. I can't change it to be anything else, so no reason kicking myself over it.

Instead of comparing it to grinders, why not compare it Swiss when you're opponent has already been down a 1-2 games(depending on how many will advance which is usually given at the beginning of the tournament). Beating them there is no different than it is in elimination except the fact that your opponent is left an uncertainty of whether they have a chance being in top cut. Resorting in unnecessary games that the judges has to attain to though it has no influence in the top cut whatsoever.

I suppose most of these things are less of issues in Masters, but I'd assume they're also more of an issue in Juniors. I often saw a couple of kids crying when I was going down the escalators to the open play area between rounds.

It is always disappointing to lose, though an important lesson is taught through elimination. Not "everyone" is a winner. I'm sorry, you've tried your best but it is just not good enough. Don't give up and try harder next time.

The reason for the change was apparently to keep the judges fresh for the next day. But this was certainly not their only option, and there were probably better ones. For example, they could sell individual cards at a stand for cheaper prices than most vendors in order to be able to afford more judges for the LCQ. Most vendors have to make a profit off of buying cases of booster boxes, but Nintendo would only have to make a profit off of printing shiny pieces of cardboard. So I imagine the store would get a lot of business as the prices would be unmatched and it would be the only single-card vendor at worlds, and therefore would be very profitable. And if I actually spent time on it, I'm sure I could think of more ideas.

Selling individual cards for cheaper price than the vendors is a "nono". It will greatly affect the value of individual cards thus causing an uproar among the vendors. When vendors make a profit, Nintendo makes a profit. This idea would only cause a deficit in Nintendo's profits in the long run.

As stated above, why would you have judges attain to games that have no influence in the outcome anyways?

One last issue - in the first round ("Top 256"), my match went to game 3 sudden death. I opened a lone Tyrogue and by pure luck he couldn't get his out while going first. If a game is that close and I made it much further, I wouldn't be surprised if my opponent would have too. Heck, Ness and Gino could have gotten paired in round 1. Yet they are probably both better than a majority of people who would be playing in the next round. I know this has been brought up before, but I wanted to emphasize it again.

Ness and Gino could be paired up round 1, and the better player will advance. They would be unlucky if that had happened.

If you open a lone Cleffa against a Tyrogue in a swiss round? Although you could possibly be a better player, you will still lose the game. Luck is a factor of the game and you just have to accept that it is there. A best of three format will also decreases the luck factor.

The LCQ didn't seem to see too much of a drop in attendance from past years, but if others' experiences were like mine then I'd assume there will be a drop next year. If this happens, I assume there will be a drop in prerelease attendance because there will be less people overall. Now, I don't know if Nintendo makes a profit off of the average player who doesn't compete in worlds but still attends (because of side event prizes), but if they do then a drop in attendance would mean a drop in the number of Prerelease attendees. This leads to a drop in profits. So, hopefully we'll see a change back to the way it was before (eventually).

/rant

I believe that Grinders this year was actually the largest Grinders ever. (Don't quote me as i'm only 90% sure). I will continue to attend Grinders if given the chance to. I also expect a drop next year, though not because of the format but instead because it is held in Hawaii.
 
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Well I guess different people just prefer different formats - a lot of people have posted saying they like swiss and some have liked the elimination, so I can't argue with your opinion on that. But in Swiss it's still a competition and only the top players get in. It's just that the rest of the people got to play if they wanted to.

And a player who is X-2 should know he's not in and drop if he doesn't want to play. I'm not sure if any X-2's have ever gotten through the grinder in Cali. But an X-1 still has a chance and why not keep playing. That's like saying swiss rounds in every tournament should be single elim because X-1 players who are on the top cut bubble are potentially wasting their time.

You are right about my opponents not being able to take a loss - I guess because nobody in my area is really a bad sport like that I just didn't relate feeling bad to them taking the loss in a rough way. Although my second round opponent took the loss really well and he was literally the best sport I've ever played. I was saying how I really needed good draws of an Oak to take the next prize and he wished me the best of luck as I shuffled my hand in lol. But I guess I just felt bad for him because he was so nice.

I wouldn't think that selling the individual cards would drop their profits that much - they would just go in with a set quantity - say they brought 300 Magnezone Primes and sold them for 15 dollars each. Now in the long run that's not a lot of the card to be selling and a lot of people who wanted copies probably wouldn't get them. But I suppose the issue is that people could buy them cheap and then resell them for more. And that would be bad and I'm sure profit would be lost off that. But still that was one idea and there have been a few other good ones mentioned in the thread.

And in swiss the lower table games do have an influence on the top cut because of resistance. But I get your point that those people can't make the cut themselves. I guess some people prefer to keep playing and some people are just playing to get in.

And as far as the donking, in this particular format at least getting donked could easily decide the outcome of a match. If your opponent goes first and they donk you, they also get to go first game 3 provided there is a game 3. At that point though you're probably only going to play a five turn game with the time element and if your opponent takes the first prize they will probably take the game regardless of whether or not you could have come back and won.

Yeah it was the largest grinder ever - I posted this before I knew the numbers or the location for next year's worlds.
 
Pfffft, largest grinder ever. So what? The format had nothing to do with it. As if someone at home thought "Oh man oh man, the format is two out of three? I'm DEFINITELY going now!"

This was the largest grinder because a)tournaments tend to get exponentially larger, b)it was too expensive to go the year before, so people made a point of going this year, and c)the format was too new at nationals, so I think some people wouldve rather played in a more predictable tournament.
 
untitled -
The rest of the people may also continue to just play the game after they get eliminated. Though in this case, the judges do not have to work extra and record their matches. It has meaning in tournaments before grinders due to rating but in grinders, it won't have an impact on ratings anyways.

As stated above, you can still compete for Rating in other tournaments. Though in Grinders, ratings does not matter anymore.

The players whom prefer to keep playing tends to really enjoy the game. Being eliminated will not ruin their experience.

Luck is part of a game. You got donked game 1 but you are given a chance to prove that you are better than you are opponent (if you get donked twice than your decks setup/consistency is questionable).
In a swiss round. you would be at an X-1 deficit which now puts you into the "bubble".

Pfffft, largest grinder ever. So what? The format had nothing to do with it. As if someone at home thought "Oh man oh man, the format is two out of three? I'm DEFINITELY going now!"

This was the largest grinder because a)tournaments tend to get exponentially larger, b)it was too expensive to go the year before, so people made a point of going this year, and c)the format was too new at nationals, so I think some people wouldve rather played in a more predictable tournament.

You are 100% correct. The statement is just to debunk the claim that the new format change will cause a drop in players attendance.
 
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yoyo, the attendance statistics for everything in the US other than Nationals and Worlds has basically shown that the game is currently in a zero-growth cycle nationwide. And has been for two years. That this year's LCQ was the largest ever, and I believe the 3rd or 4th largest tournament ever held by TPCi, is an incredible achievement, regardless of the format.
 
untitled -
The rest of the people may also continue to just play the game after they get eliminated. Though in this case, the judges do not have to work extra and record their matches. It has meaning in tournaments before grinders due to rating but in grinders, it won't have an impact on ratings anyways.

As stated above, you can still compete for Rating in other tournaments. Though in Grinders, ratings does not matter anymore.

The players whom prefer to keep playing tends to really enjoy the game. Being eliminated will not ruin their experience.

Luck is part of a game. You got donked game 1 but you are given a chance to prove that you are better than you are opponent (if you get donked twice than your decks setup/consistency is questionable).
In a swiss round. you would be at an X-1 deficit which now puts you into the "bubble".
Right I get they can keep playing in the open play room I'm not really trying to argue that. My main point about that in my original post was that waiting until 4 to play for less than an hour is not worth it. I don't care if you can play in the open play room after; you're still waiting for hours on end for the actual tournament.

Being eliminated was not what ruined my experience. It was all of the things I mentioned in my first post that ruined it. I've said multiple times that I would have made this thread even if I made it in. I had no right to be in worlds anyway - I didn't play a game all season and didn't even try for a spot in worlds the easier ways.

I know that luck is a part of the game, but it was too much of a part in this format. I mean I did what I could to reduce it - I ran 2 Twins and used an 80HP Absol Prime I could send up to force out Reversals/PlusPowers if they went first and tried to attack with Yanmega next turn (it also works great if you go first and they collector - then you can just Yanmega snipe everything next turn instead of relying on Reversal which was its main purpose in the deck). Even so, I won every game I went first in except in the last round but I would have won for sure if I didn't misplay. I lost all but 2 of the games I went second and I got donked once before I could even draw a card. And this is ignoring all the clutch reversals I hit/missed that could have changed entire games.
 
@ this thread

tl;dr

Single Elimination format seemed to be brought on to make it a bit easier for judges, but it made the entire experience A LOT more intense, and possibly unenjoyable by some people, specifically those who lost earlier on.

This was my first grinders, and while I made it to round 5 (top 64 I believe), which isn't bad at all for my first experience in a format like this, I still would have greatly enjoyed playing in a swiss format far more than the single elimination.

This was not in any way easier on the judges or organizers then swiss, it was way harder on them. The last 3 years the grinder was over between 6:00 and 7:00 pm. This year the Grinder lasted until 9:00 pm where the organizers called uncle and they stopped it with one round to go and let 16 players into the Worlds the next day instead of the 8 that was planned. If they had played to a T8 the Grinder would have lasted until 10:30 pm and as Registration started at 8:30 am that is a 14 hour tourney. As it was it still took 30 min longer then the 9 hour swiss Grinder in Anaheim that lasted 12 hours from Registration to finish.

When they first announced the change from swiss to top cut I had 3 main concerns. 1) It would take way longer then a swiss tourney to determine who would move on. This was easily proven to be true given the fact that it was the longest LCQ in history. 2) The single elimination format would lead to lots of sad faces and tears each round from the juniors and senior players. I spoke afterwards to a player who judged juniors and asked him how it went. He told me that the worst part was having to deal with all the crying from the loosing players in juniors each and every round. So that concern was proved to be correct. My 3rd concern was that the single elimination format would lead possibly the most lucky players getting in to worlds not necessarily the best, because the players who avoided their autoloss could get further then a more skilled player who had the bad luck of the draw to face a donpahn deck when they were playing an electric deck. This one I can’t say yes or no on if it occurred, but I would be curious to know if any grinder players top cut this year at all. The past 3 worlds at least one grinder player finished in the top 4 some won the entire event. But they all came though a swiss play that was a more fair way to determine who the best players were on the day on skill. The top cut for all was more based on luck so I would suppose that the Grinder players did not perform as well in Worlds this year as in the past, but I do not have the data to back it up as they worlds room was locked as soon after play was done and I did not get the chance to see the standings. Also this was the first year that LCQ was not after a players name so we could tell for certain who grinded in and who did not.

So two of my three main concerns about the grinder were proven correct and the third is unknown at this time. Swiss play would have been the better choice.
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It wasn't the longest LCQ of all time. There have been LCQs that went on until 2 or 3 in the morning. and Juniors had two grinders in the finals if I remember correctly
 
untitle -

I am not directing any statements specifically towards you in any way. I am just generalizing the situations at Grinders.

You are going to wait 4 hours for the tournament to start regardless of the tournament being Swiss or Elimination.
For players whom enjoy the game, they may continue to play after being eliminated.
For players whom are there just to compete, being eliminated allows them to leave earlier as they will not continue to play aimlessly.

Statistically, luck plays less of a role in a best of three format than it does in Swiss.



JandPDS -

1) This wasn't even close to the longest LCQ as stated by sdrawkcab. I believe it was 2006 or 2007 which lasted until 2am.

3) For Grinders, with a Swiss format, losing a single game could possibly be the end of your journey anyways. Though there is less luck involved in a B03 compared to a BO1.

It probably would this year...
616 masters
R1 308 at 1-0
R2 154 at 2-0
R3 77 at 3-0
R4 39 at 4-0
R5 20 at 5-0
maybe let all 5-0 in but no 4-1s at this point or
R6 10 at 6-0
again let all the 6-0s in but none of the 5-1s


Fairly sure that just the X-0s have qualified at some of the previous LCQs too.
 
...... Swiss play would have been the better choice.
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You are not comparing the tournaments fairly. For example there were insufficient seats to accommodate all the players in the grinder in the main room which would have a big impact on how any tournament is operated. But mostly you neglect that Swiss as a tournament system is far from perfect. The goal of swiss pairs is to establish a single winner as quickly as possible and not to provide a structured opportunity for players from distant places to meet and have fun playing at the lower tables. I mourn that particular loss but I won't make the mistake of believing that it is the most important feature of the tournament.
 
The biggest problem with the LCQ this year was that crazy-long wait between Registration ending and Round 1 starting. What was that, 2 hours? They'll have a better plan for next year. Likely one that involves the Jr/Sr players registering in the afternoon rather than the morning, so that they don't have to wait as long. As well as possibly grabbing more Staff and Volunteer people to help out with the list checks to speed up that process a bit.

2/3 single elim is far superior than single game swiss from previous years. No, I don't have experience in any other LCQ to compare the experiences. But at least this year you were guaranteed to play at least 2 meaningful games. In previous years, if you lost in the first round, that's it, you're done. Your chances of making it into Worlds are about as close to zero as possible without actually being zero. You need a crazy amount of luck to make it through in a Swiss format starting 0-1. Not the least of which being all of your 2-loss opponents playing out and winning out, which will never happen.

Fix the timing issues from this year, and you fix the LCQ. That's the long and short of it.
 
This was not in any way easier on the judges or organizers then swiss, it was way harder on them.
You have had plenty of opportunity to speak for yourself on this and related topics. Please don't speak for others. When the event was over, I said "Already? We're done?"

The last 3 years the grinder was over between 6:00 and 7:00 pm. This year the Grinder lasted until 9:00 pm where the organizers called uncle and they stopped it with one round to go and let 16 players into the Worlds the next day instead of the 8 that was planned.
Now you're speaking for TPCi! They ended the event when they were ready to end it. They invited the number of people that they wanted to invite. It had ZERO to do with what time it was. It had everything to do with what number of people had registered for Worlds and how many seats were open. You're being very insulting to OP here.
If they had played to a T8 the Grinder would have lasted until 10:30 pm and as Registration started at 8:30 am that is a 14 hour tourney. As it was it still took 30 min longer then the 9 hour swiss Grinder in Anaheim that lasted 12 hours from Registration to finish.
The length of time had little to do with running it as Elimination rather than as Swiss. It had everything to do with the large numbers and with doing something for the first time (which was the strange way the first round runs in elimination). If they do it again, that will go a lot smoother the next time and you won't see that long delay. There was a lot of discussion about how things went, what would fix that, and what to do different the next time. Things are not static. Lessons are learned.

He told me that the worst part was having to deal with all the crying from the loosing players in juniors each and every round. So that concern was proved to be correct.
I suspect there is usually just as much crying in Jrs, it's just not at the table where the kids know immediately that they are out, but rather, at the standings board where we don't see it.

My 3rd concern was that the single elimination format would lead possibly the most lucky players getting in to worlds not necessarily the best, because the players who avoided their autoloss could get further then a more skilled player who had the bad luck of the draw to face a donpahn deck when they were playing an electric deck.
Sorry, but this is patently bogus. With a field as large as we had, 600+ in Masters, only undefeated players were going to make it in. Period. There would be no X-1's making it in through Swiss. Look at the numbers playing. It is a fantasy to think someone would be getting in with any game loss this year.

The top cut for all was more based on luck
Now you're insulting those players that made it through the grinder! What sour grapes! Just lucky? I'm sure luck was a factor, as it is in ANY Pokemon tournament. But you don't make it through all those rounds just on luck. You have to be a good, worthy player. Period.
 
PokePop's post is full of win. I'm quite frankly sick of JandPDS's whining over the grinder and how he magically knows exactly what is better for TPCi than TPCi themselves!

The fact that he argues this format for the grinder means more 'lucky' people get through is just ridiculous, as best of three ALWAYS favours the better player as bad starts can be compensated for in the next 2 games.
 
PokePop's post is full of win. I'm quite frankly sick of JandPDS's whining over the grinder and how he magically knows exactly what is better for TPCi than TPCi themselves!

I'm not sure I care for the haughty, arrogant, condescending, and downright nasty tone of this comment. It's completely unconstructive and serves no purpose but to insult JandPDS, which is ironic as you are endorsing PokePop for berating the allegedly insulting tone of JandPDS's post. Is it okay to post vicious comments like this just because they are in support of TPCi? I sure hope not.

Additionally, why do you and so many others seem to have a penchant for berating players who attempt to provide feedback to TPCi?

Before you or a certain organizer from San Diego say that in that case he ought to take the matter to TPCi privately, that simply isn't valid. Publicizing his disapproval invites other dissatisfied players and possibly even staff members to voice their opinions. The risk of appearing unreasonable to a large audience on a public forum also encourages TPCi to act more efficiently. It's never bad to open this sort of matter to the public for discussion, especially seeing as others may also wish to voice their disapproval.

JandPDS wasn't talking about what is better for TPCi, as none of the player base cares about that. He was talking about individual staff members, on whom a system can be harder while still being better for TPCi as a collective unit.

While we care about the individual staff members, we could care less about the collective unit. The operation may have been easier overall on TPCi as a group, but was it easier on the individual staff member? I don't hold an opinion here as I simply don't know but for you to claim that TPCi knows how each of its staff felt about SE grinder is ludicrous.

Additionally, the most important factor by far when choosing a format for a tournament is obviously, 'how will this best serve the players?' Not the staff, not TPCi - these tournaments are put on for players, and the first priority ought always to lie with them, not with the guys in charge.

Pablo said:
The fact that he argues this format for the grinder means more 'lucky' people get through is just ridiculous, as best of three ALWAYS favours the better player as bad starts can be compensated for in the next 2 games.

Does best of three with a 45-minute time limit ALWAYS favor the better player? Can you even say it does with a straight face? How often do you think a full three games are played under this format? How many MORE games came down to time than in a bo1 30 + 3 format? For you to make such a sweeping statement without considering the circumstances is absurd.
 
Additionally, the most important factor by far when choosing a format for a tournament is obviously, 'how will this best serve the players?' Not the staff, not TPCi - these tournaments are put on for players, and the first priority ought always to lie with them, not with the guys in charge..

You overestimate the value of the Grinder...its not "how will we best serve the players" for that event...its how can we most "fairly" serve the players and get the job done the most quickly and efficiently...

You can argue incorrectly all day long that the event was longer than previous events and say that it was harder on the staff...but trust me..compared to 2009...I will take the format for 2011 anyday...it got the job done fairly and if not perfectly efficient ...close enough.

There is no way we could have done swiss in the venue without the staggered start for juniors and seniors...no room...

and no they were not going to take away the 24 hour game room for the day to do the job, nor was it necessary to increase the amount of seating.

Please take your grapes....bag them up...and place them in the trash...

You might be noticing that there is no ground swell of dissent or a rising grassroots movement in support of changing the grinder format for next year...just an unhappy but vocal few.
 
JandPDS wasn't talking about what is better for TPCi, as none of the player base cares about that. He was talking about individual staff members, on whom a system can be harder while still being better for TPCi as a collective unit.

While we care about the individual staff members, we could care less about the collective unit. The operation may have been easier overall on TPCi as a group, but was it easier on the individual staff member? I don't hold an opinion here as I simply don't know but for you to claim that TPCi knows how each of its staff felt about SE grinder is ludicrous.

You have a lot of the top level Staffers here telling you it was much easier. Don't you think they would have an idea how the rest of their teams felt? And don't you think they relay a lot of this information back to their bosses at TPCi? I have a good feeling TPCi has a wonderful idea of the staffs opinion on the matter.

If you don't believe that, well, I'll add my name to the list of Staff who felt the SE Grinder was easier to run than a long Swiss tournament.
 
1) This wasn't even close to the longest LCQ as stated by sdrawkcab. I believe it was 2006 or 2007 which lasted until 2am.

If I remember correctly registration for the LCQ that went to 2 AM didn't start until 4 or so in the afternoon. Jeff may be correct in this year may hold the title as the longest from start of registration to the end of the last match. The first few grinders didn't start until Friday afternoon. I suspect that the 2 AM finish was also responsible for the early Friday AM start in following years.


The biggest problem with the LCQ this year was that crazy-long wait between Registration ending and Round 1 starting. What was that, 2 hours? They'll have a better plan for next year. Likely one that involves the Jr/Sr players registering in the afternoon rather than the morning, so that they don't have to wait as long. As well as possibly grabbing more Staff and Volunteer people to help out with the list checks to speed up that process a bit.

I don't know where the hold up was, but it wasn't in the list check. The judges were doing them as they were collected, and all the lists were checked within 15 minutes of when we received the last list.
 
If I remember correctly registration for the LCQ that went to 2 AM didn't start until 4 or so in the afternoon. Jeff may be correct in this year may hold the title as the longest from start of registration to the end of the last match. The first few grinders didn't start until Friday afternoon. I suspect that the 2 AM finish was also responsible for the early Friday AM start in following years..

I remember that, it was in Anahiem. Between the mandatory deck checks and a couple of rounds going 60+ minutes (Shedinja-stall ugh), plus the 9 rounds. I didn't make it up to the room until 3am.
 
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