Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The Rebelion Begins

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You realize nobody has exactly jumped on the bandwagon of using this format, right?

The reason is that there are simply too many broken or similar cards in unlimited. Heck, that's even a problem in modified right now. If you really wanted to create a "perfect" format, you would have to make fake cards.
 
The cards were not made to be outside of their respective formats. That is why we do not have unlimited. Plus, trainer engines would be INSANE. The reason decks are fair right now is because we all have a limited card pool. In the SP format, cards that search for others were dominant. Bebe, Communication, Cyrus, etc. "Draw" was a very rare effect outside of Uxie. This format is a "shuffle draw" format. I personally dislike it, but we have many "hand refresh" cards and we are just gaining more draw cards. We have minimal search (left to Collector and Communication). If we all had a long card pool, what is to stop us from playing stuff like Lass and then combo it into judge to stop your opponent from having any advantage? Plus, a ban list would be horribly long. Moreover, power creep is so strong that the only old cards that will be played are trainers or unfair in some way...


In current formats, a sideboard would be a terrible idea. Let's take a good metanite build from a few years ago. That card was able to play any tech, but it was tight on space. Imagine having 4 extra spots for 5 different techs (one is already in deck). That would be INSANE! It would have one of the best post-board games out of all the decks in the metagame. The PTCG prospers without a sideboard because of the concept of techs. You have to have cards that can help you against certain matchups, but will not be totally useless against others. These are valuable spaces in your deck, and should only be used to "hard counter" a deck if you really need to beat that deck. Allowing sideboards would allow a multitude of hard counters. In magic, I can board in 4 flashfreaze against your Valukut, but that doesn't mean I'll draw them. In Pokemon, it is inevitable to draw into your techs eventually... you'll get them out if you want them enough. With Magic, they may never even be seen in a game.


Next, a new format would be a bad idea for the actual PTCGi. Why make a new format that encourages us to buy from the 3rd party where they make no money when you can get new cards that encourages spending money on packs and boxes? Moreover, they would lose some of their target audience as some kids don't have the money to go back and buy old cards (which would be fluxuated in price due to a new format being announced). Those kids would get bothered constantly losing, and they may as well just quit. Plus, how would we differentiate between the formats? Every other event is format X (not z... I am z)? That is a pain to keep up with.



I am a firm believer that making the game more competitive (and more fun) will be making the players play more games. 7 games and then cut cannot accurately determine the order of players based on skill. Having best of 3 games in swiss or more swiss rounds (just theoretical) would increase competition. Your idea would also require a long ban list which would require keeping up with it (which is a PAIN). A kid going to an event would have difficulty finding that certain cards are banned. It is easier to just have a list of sets that are legal.



Also, why is this a "rebellion"? You are the only one here who thinks this is a serious issue. Most of us are perfectly happy with the rotation system. A rebellion is a refusal to obey the rules of the higher ups. Unless you come to premier events with decks out of rotation, you aren't rebelling anything. League is open to play any format (we play doubles at my league occasionally). Those who play unfair decks won't get games, so there really is no need to make so many rules for league. As I said before, adding different formats in tournaments would be illogical for TPCi.
 
Thank you for your analysis, z-man. Your point is really a good one. I just said rebellion because rebelling is fun, right?

I am a firm believer that a TCG should build on itself. The cards of Poke'mon never had anything but the company saying what cards will sit in the same hot tub for the next year.

That being said, a ban list has the potiential for being massive, I won't disagree on that. And making it available to the kids is another issue that stints my vision. In other games alternatives are printed or the old staples are constantly reprinted, but in Poke'mon that is not the case. In a way I am conceiding on the point of the ban list because Poke'mon is not going to reprint Energy Removal, Gust of Wind (though they technically have), Professor Oak, or de-supporterize Bill (I will never forgive them for that).

However, in a Trading Card Game you have the convenience of Trading. In a wide format like the Z-Format, a smart fish would trade around before buying at all (that's how I operate, not that I am a smart fish). So one could in theory ask the older players if he or she would trade the old staples.

This format is far away from being an official fare, I am just one who wants to see how much havoc Poke'mon cards can wreak on each other, as I have expremented with in my Gardebounce deck I posted in the Deck Section a few minutes ago.

The roadblocks are very difficult in my quest, buuuut......I would really like to see people dabble into this more. I want people to build crazy decks and maybe convince people why the format should stay the same or be different. It needs to be done because our old cards are doing us no good just sitting in our closets gathering dust.
 
The best possible alternate format to me is the following:

Base-Skyridge with a simple banlist, if needed
EX sets with a simple banlist, if needed
DP sets with a simple banlist, if needed (when HS to CL is rotated, it would join this)
and HS-On as the "standard" metagame with no banlist

Politoed666, you are just wrong. A lot of things on the ban list does not constitute "everything". Base-whatever was ruined by Energy Removal, I do not see why take backs would be frowned upon. No one is talking about managing centralization, just managing broken or not. If they want to keep hating a ban list though (which they will for the aforementioned reasons), there can always be a current metagame with no ban list (standard) and a past metagame or all-sets metagame with a ban list. Decisions might be hard, but that is better than nothing. More metagames means more fun, in every type of game.

bullados, Nintendo would make more money by even more reprints...you see how much they like reprinting some things just two sets out right now!

baby mario, why would this format improving make an even better format a negative? Pokemon could go like magic OR like yugioh with format ideas, and both would provide more top decks than now, and a terrible start to a format like we are going through now would never happen again (Reversal was bad; Catcher takes away the flips, but is either slightly less bad or a lot worse).

The reason that pokemon is against new formats is because they want to have a generation and move on every time...I do not see why we could not enjoy the past generations. Unlimited does not allow that. No one plays unlimited, so stuff like Porygon donk is not going to be dealt with, and you are not going to find competitive games either. If some official metagame was supported (unlimited is NOT supported), then there would be a large influx of creativity and competitive play.
 
To start off, I like the game play of Poke'mon. The only problem is everytime a new set comes out, it seems they change the rules to the start of the game.

That is an exaggeration, though the basic rules are often changed. I do not necessarily consider this to be a bad thing: far too many games will keep flawed rules for years when the slightest change would fix things. Balancing the power of going first versus going second is quite challenging, especially with an evolving game.

We need to ultimately and permanently decide if we can play goods/item cards during the first turn or not. Same with drawing first. Thats a small change that we need consenses.

A consensus doesn't really apply here. The rules are that you can do both first turn. Could they change? That is always a possibility, but realistically I would think such a change would not be instituted until the usual time, namely the next block of sets.

Another thing that can be improved on is the way the format is conducted. I have played in all three of the BIG Three (Magic, Poke'mon, Yu-gi-oh!) and have seen among them two different ways to conduct a format: Set Rotation and Ban List formats.

You do realize the inherent differences in those game systems, right? Magic is carefully structured to maintain even a semblance of balance. I was just about to start dabbling with Limited events for Magic, but my finances went kaput and then I moved, so it just isn't happening. Still what I do recall is that very few cards lacked a mana cost to play, it was a pretty clear divide on cards whose mana cost were tailored for multi-color decks and what pretty much required a mono-color deck to reasonably run, and most importantly draw power was no where near what it is in Pokemon.

Yu-Gi-Oh I started playing with the American release of the Yu-Gi-Oh and Kaiba Starter decks, the genesis of the American game. I excelled at the game for a short time, started struggling after a few sets, then made a triumphant return after a few more sets, started struggling again, and for several years just dabbled and wrote Card of the Day reviews. I finally decided I could keep up on Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon was more fun. Seeing the most recent changes to Yu-Gi-Oh, the only real way to improve that game is to kill it with fire. -_- I love the basic concepts that underlie Yu-Gi-Oh game play, but the cards are not designed to be balanced within the system.

To clarify, notice the huge difference between Magic (or Pokemon) and Yu-Gi-Oh: the resource card. Magic has mana, Pokemon has Energy, but Yu-Gi-Oh has no equivalent. This means that even before factoring in minimum deck size, draw power in Yu-Gi-Oh is "extra potent": there is no once-per-turn resource card cluttering things up.

I will not be quoting your exact words for the next few points, because I can merely respond in general and nothing needs to be emphasized. You are not the only person with several older cards. Any long time player that either didn't care to abandon his older cards or wasn't smart enough to has quite a collection built up after even a few years. Now reflect upon what I just said: if you have a build up of cards you can't play, that means either at one time you wanted to keep them (I fall into that category), or you don't failed to sell/trade them off when you could. Set Rotation is not like Yu-Gi-Oh Ban List rotation. In Yu-Gi-Oh, the only real heads up is what happens on the Japanese Ban List, which (at least when I played) would update a month or so before the international one.

Pokemon isn't like that. You know its coming and you have a solid idea of what is going to go. No one knows with 100% certainty but the general rule of thumb is four or so sets will go. Smart players will always anticipate the rotation and unload anything they don't want to keep. Under normal circumstances, your best stuff for the current format can easily be sold off to someone headed to Worlds? Why? Because no one wants to be disqualified if their deck is stolen, and some one always seems to pull that garbage at Worlds. So between wanting to have as many decks as possible to choose from in case they sense a sudden metagame shift and wanting to have back-ups of at least all important cards (and usually whatever their most likely deck is going to be), the World-bound player has a strong incentive to buy up a lot of cards on the secondary market before worlds. The most savvy will even recoup this investment by simply being willing to sell to other players: there isn't a worry about helping someone beat you since if you don't sell to them, you know someone else will.

This year was a bit odd as we had an early rotation, but you know what the powers that be did? They announced they were contemplating it about two months before the fact, then confirmed they were going to do it one month before the fact: plenty of time to unload those extra cards.

Actually building up a playable card pool is quite easy and affordable in this game unless you rush things. No you can't get a top deck fast and cheap, but you can usually cobble together something fun for League play and build steadily by going to Pre-Releases and trading smart. Pre-Releases really are a gold mine just because collectors often want to finish the collection ASAP, and many players will want their full play set now! So sorry friend, you have no one to blame but yourself if you lack the cards needed to play.

As for getting your money's worth... how much did you spend on non-secondary market cards and how long have you been using them? Pokemon cards usually aren't that expensive, especially when you're just buying them in packs. The most rare cards in Pokemon tend to be more common than the most rare in Yu-Gi-Oh, and less expensive on the secondary market as well. Either way, your mistake is thinking you're buying "Organized Play For Life!" You're buying card board with art and rules text printed on it, to play a children's card game they were designed for. Plenty of companies make good money just dumping TCGs onto the market with no Organized Play. Organized Play is basically a giant piece of Customer Service used to promote the game... but it doesn't have to be.

You really want to keep using your old stuff? Start setting up tournaments with older formats and cash prizes. Even something small should entice solid local players to come.

Now finally getting to the idea of a Ban List... Ban Lists are a tool of last resort. Second your headings show you fall to what I consider the common misconceptions of Yu-Gi-Oh. Think of broken cards like mountains in a mountain range. Some are bigger than others, but all are still mountains, just as some cards are more broken than others, but still broken. Two kinds of broken cards tend to obscure the rest, just as mountains can obscure other mountains. You have the mountain that is right in front of you. So while there are mountains behind it, you might not be able to see them. Then are are the mountains that are huge: up close or far away other smaller mountains may be hidden by them, or the shadow they cast.

Yu-Gi-Oh has so many broken cards it hurts my head. Many players will claim a card isn't broken because there is something else more powerful available and/or the broken card isn't being played. If we simply take things to extremes, we can see that just because something isn't played doesn't mean it is "balanced". Let us create a hypothetical card called "Screw the Rules!" that is a Normal Spell that simply states "You win." Completely and utterly broken. Now let us create a card called Brooklyn Rage that is also a Normal Spell and does 8000 points of damage. Both are broken, but clearly the first is "more broken" since the latter could be foiled by more counter-cards. Still in either case you get a ridiculous amount of advantage for little investment.

Now guess what? Let's continue our thought experiment by supposing Konami needed a lot of filler cards, and people loved these two but at the same time complained they were broken, so they keep nerfing them... slightly. So we get Trap versions of the above. Monster versions of the above. Then just slightly weaker versions of all the preceding, such as a Normal Spell that inflicts 7000 points of damage, one that does 6000, etc. A year later, they need more filler cards and start adding costs like "Pay 1000 LP then do 8000 points of damage to your opponent" in all the varieties, and then tweaking the costs and final damage outputs. We will easily have more than enough of these cards to create a 40 card deck, and still have cards left over that would never see play.

All that was pretty ridiculous, but now dial it back and you see how this actually has happened in the real game: we may have a variety of effects, but formats always seem to have more unbalanced (broken) cards than are needed to fill a full deck.

It doesn't help that Konami doesn't address the fundamental values of Yu-Gi-Oh cards. Monsters are the hardest cards to get into play (based on the fundamental rules) and so should be the most powerful cards. Konami ignores this by constantly making monsters with Special Summon requirements, and the ones that see play have the least hampering costs to Special Summon. So an effect that would be fine on a Level 8 Monster that required two monsters of tribute to normal summon becomes broken when that monster has a negligible Special Summon requirement, or when the game provides an easy source of monsters you can special Summon to provide the required Tribute.

Spells are the easiest to play cards, so they should have the weakest effects. Instead they have the strongest, and the only thing that challenges them are monsters that basically act like Spells with a body attached to them. Think about Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning: if you took his removal effect and summoning cost and made them a normal Spell, at least while I played that Spell would have become a staple maxed out. Instead the actual card gets that same effect and Spell Speed, but includes a 3000 ATK Light Warrior with another good attack and solid DEF score (I can't remember that number off the top of my head). >_<

Traps are the middle card: easier to play than monsters but harder to play than Spells. If you could constantly reload your hand you could set five Traps on your turn, then use those five by Main Phase 2 of your next turn and set five more. So they should have effects somewhere in the middle.

Lastly, with this hierarchy it should be evident that Spells (being so easy to play) should have a hard time destroying anything except perhaps other Spells. Traps could relatively safely destroy Spells and perhaps each other. Neither should be able to directly destroy a monster without a significant cost or targeting restriction. Monsters should be safe destroying anything, so long as the difficulty of summoning the monster is taken into account.

Instead for the periods of the game I was familiar with, the relationship was the complete opposite, except when we had monsters that were, as stated, effectively Spells with a body attached to them. Oh, or the fact that Konami must really hate Traps as they make them far to easy to negate (Jinzo, Royal Decree).

So getting back to your categories, I'd argue that all three are simply broken cards, with the exact level of brokenness varying. There is a possible argument for using Bans because the player base just refuses to play anything but a specific deck or small set of decks. I have often speculated that certain unbalanced Pokemon formats owed more to the designers having decks A, B, and C and expecting equal play between the three. Balance would be achieved because of a cycle of favorable match-ups: A>B, B>C, but C>A. Unfortunately Deck B is build around a really popular Pokemon, so instead of roughly a third of the players using it, 90% play it. The remaining 10% try to make it with Deck A. No one bothers with Deck C because it has such poor match-ups against 90% of the matches expected. You'd might think that deck A would then be tops but the thing is, 9 out of 10 decks might be favorable matches, but they aren't auto-wins. Even if the best player is running deck A, he might be facing eight rounds before top cut of losing due to his bad luck, his opponent's good luck, or simply his one mistake of the tournament.

What about your desire for a side deck? This is another time when you must understand the difference between Pokemon and Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh. In Yu-Gi-Oh, the side deck is actually kind of broken. Do you not see how much innovation is ruined with side boards in a game like Yu-Gi-Oh where most cards can be run in any deck? There were many decks that were fun and functional but crippled because if anyone tried running them, there was an easy counter-card someone would side deck in. There are also brutal decks that dominated that I think remained overpowered because all the obvious cards Konami could have designed and released to counter it... would have been side deck bait and instead of balancing things out, would have rendered the former broken deck worthless to play.

Pokemon may have a resource system Yu-Gi-Oh usually lacks, but Pokemon is structured so that counter cards are to be run in the main deck. You can have 60 cards, the game has ample search, draw, and recycling cards, and only Pokemon tend to have specific resource requirements (and even then there are many intentionally designed to be run off type).

Try thinking about it this way: 15 cards is enough for many Pokemon decks completely convert into a different deck. A completely unrelated deck? No. But even ignoring some of the most broken examples it'd be easy to essentially run two different of any mono or two-type deck. 15 slots lets you replace a 3-3-3 Stage 2 line and a 3-3 Stage 1. Then if you have any good Pokemon (which the current format has many) that are capable of appearing in multiple top decks and have minimal energy requirements, and its possible to have three decks in one.

The other kicker is that if you only allow a small side board, it has to be very small to prevent abuse, at which point you have to explain why you aren't good enough to fit the cards into your main deck. If you insist on championing a side deck for Pokemon, realize that it probably has to be between six and nine cards: anymore and its too powerful, any less and its just a player's lack of skill at being unable to work it into the main deck.

Match play doesn't happen because of time and money. If you want best two of three to actually matter, you have to extend round times, and that means a longer tournament with more costs to it, and possible problems as younger players can barely handle a five to eight hour event. The biggest tournaments would take twice as long. Cool as a week long World Championship sounds, it isn't happening. Ness started a thread recently about altering the tournament structure and I suggest you look it up. The title is Restoring Skill To the Game, or something like that.

Unfortunately to answer a gargantuan post required a gargantuan post, so I am sorry if this is cluttered, a bit jumbled, or perhaps has a few points that drop off. Feel free to ask questions and I will explain more.

Oh, and seriously: Mulligan's Mewtwo was either a joke or a goof on the part of InQuest. They completely ignored that a single Energy removal, Special Condition, etc. costs it the game.
 
LoL, haven't posted here in forever but just wanted to point out that Yu-Gi-Oh's continually changing ban list system creates an environment in which people spend hundreds of dollars only to have their decks banned within months and for a lather rinse and repeat process from then on. If anything YGO's system of handling their card's format makes their players waste more money than just rotating sets out never to be seen from again. This is one of two reasons that stealing is so prominent in YGO, because in order to stay on top you essentially have to be rich, know how to play the market, or steal. (The other reason is they make cards so inappropriately rare)

Magic the gathering's system of handling multiple formats in order to keep all of the cards alive is much better. You can't just have all of the cards set into one context and expect it to go well, you come up with the problem of either having new sets become irrelevant or older sets becoming irrelevant. There's no way you could properly balance one format to have so many different viable archetypes to appreciate an adequate amount of the card pool.

I believe it's been mentioned before for pokemon to have an eternal format or a format from set X and beyond, mtg has something to this effect:
1. Eternal format with only a restricted ban list (
2. Eternal format with strict ban list
3. Newly made format that is from an older set and beyond (people are very excited about this one)
4. A large amount of the most recent sets
5. A smaller amount of the most recent sets

Now, I wouldn't say pokemon right of the bat needs so many constructed formats (even though pokemon has a roughly same size pool of cards.) In fact, I'd just start with #2 as I know people already have a rough idea of things that should be banned, and then the ban list could be expanded from that. Then if that goes well #3 could be implemented, I know for a fact there's a particular set that people really want that format to start from, it's been too long so I forget but it's not a foreign concept to pokemon players as a whole.

The main problem with making any sort of changes to the pokemon constructed system is the majority of it's player base, Kids. Yes kids, since the major appeal of pokemon tcg are essentially young children and their families they are eternally limited by how complicated Play (or whoever's officially in charge) can make their card game. Just compare pokemon tcg to other card games, it took almost forever for pokemon to create a card that could be played on your opponents turn, mtg started with such a thing and is still being used as a large majority of it's card base.

To explain how this creates a more complex play environment just think of how complicated power spray made games, now imagine a whole plethura of things that could be played on your turn, perhaps some sort of card you could play on your opponents turn if they played an energy that turn, and prevented all damage from a pokemons attack that you played when they announced their attack. Think about how complicated that could make games, sure you got your pokemon ready to KO your opponent, but you also know that you need to start building a back up on the bench, but is that as crucial as you potentially not KOing this pokemon out? What if my opponent doesnt even have that card?

This plus all the other already complex things would probably be out of reach for a lot of kids that just want to play their turn and not have to think about how their opponent is going to stop them on their own turn. Sorry for the tangent but I was trying to show how pokemon is a lot more simple than it can be (not to say that playing pokemon is simple), and that if the development of cards are limited by their fan base of kids than you really can't expect them to change the format structure from the current one. One small format (in the scope of all sets), new sets are relevant because old ones go away forever, and is simple enough for new players to grasp easily.
 
:biggrin:

Extremely interesting insight, Otaku and Sabett. I appreciate it.

I am still in the Yu-gi-oh! game, so I can reference kinda what you are talking about, Otaku. However, a side deck is built against the obvious meta. Since you no longer in the game this will kinda be obscure, but when Six Samurai made their comeback earlier this year, it was hard to keep up with. The deck was absurd, once Shein-en hit the board it wasn't pretty. But the counters for that, Gozen Match and Rivalry of the Warlords were in everyone's side board in order to counter that strategy.

On the next ban list, Shein-en was at one and Gate of the Six Samurai was at one. They took a shot at key cards of a too powerful deck. However in Yu-gi-oh! there is a myriad of decks in the format that make it so diverse that the format is hard to predict. Someone might come up with Fish/Zombie OTK or Kuriboh Swarm; who knows?

My point is the Side Deck should be a tool. In the end, It might not be right for pokemon. However, if it is to be tested we need to be smart about it. Maybe five cards instead of fifteen? Again these are ideas.

We need to observe and report and see how such a massive and expansive format would work. Some decks are going to be crazy. And it might appeal more to the older generation, but it would be fun. I'll see if I can get a few folks to dabble into this long neglected piece of Poke'mondom and see what happens.

In the end, what Otaku prodded at is what Yu-gi-oh! has over Poke'mon: diversity. Its format system allows that, where most of the time the Rotation Format of Poke'mon only allows a handful of decks to make top cut and everyone scrambling to get those cards.

As for expenses, Yu-gi-oh! has some very good cheap decks. Plus they are reprinting their really expensive tournament staples. Plus I don't spend much on that game or TCG's in general. I trade before I spend.

Thanks for commenting all!
 
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Last time I played, we had techable cards like Lati-lock that could totally shut down a deck. Now I see cards like Celebi Prime, there was a Mewtwo LvX that shut down all-basic decks. Being able to introduce an auto-win is too much.
 
My point is the Side Deck should be a tool. In the end, It might not be right for pokemon. However, if it is to be tested we need to be smart about it. Maybe five cards instead of fifteen? Again these are ideas.

I am sure TPC has been testing this, and I know many players have. Since it was buried in my monster post, let me state it clearly: a five card side board is ridiculous because a good player can fit that many cards into the main deck. Again that is the nature of Pokemon, and if Yu-Gi-Oh actually wiped the slate clean and started with balanced cards, would likely be the case there (the reduced draw/search power is the only thing that gives me pause).

In the end, what Otaku prodded at is what Yu-gi-oh! has over Poke'mon: diversity. Its format system allows that, where most of the time the Rotation Format of Poke'mon only allows a handful of decks to make top cut and everyone scrambling to get those cards.

:nonono:

I will accept this as my failure to communicate because I was saying the complete opposite. Learn your Pokemon TCG and Yu-Gi-Oh TCG history. This is the beginning of the current format. Our first major event with just six sets was Worlds. The top lists may have had a lot of overlap, but we did have at least some diversity. In fact the main complaints about diversity come not from the deck foci but from its support. Battle Roads will give us a better idea of actual diversity.

Yu-Gi-Oh's "diversity" only has come on the decaying corpses of previous formats and sets, and is still a fairly recent development largely aided by the various additions to the Extra deck. Like you love to boast, Yu-Gi-Oh refuses to jettison older sets in an official capacity, but many sets might as well be rotated out because only the most potent cards, most of which have been reprinted multiple times, still see play. Likewise it is only deck themes that make things "seem" so diverse over there.... deck themes that have been slowly built over the seven or eight years. :eek:

Think about this very, very carefully: how many sets are legal for Yu-Gi-Oh, and how many decks? How many cards from all those past sets you are so proud to boast are still legal are actually worth playing in a serious deck? How long did it take for some Types to be fleshed out? I think Sea Serpents were finally being developed when I stopped paying attention a year or two ago.

New decks pop up in Yu-Gi-Oh mostly because a) a broken card is accidentally released or b) an intentional new deck is created and force fed down the player's throats.

That is not a healthy, diverse game. It took over half a decade for Yu-Gi-Oh to build a format about as diverse as the average Modified format. Pokemon is in the "rebuilding phase" of the format right now, and its still more diverse than about half of Yu-Gi-Oh's US history. :rolleyes:
 
In the end, what Otaku prodded at is what Yu-gi-oh! has over Poke'mon: diversity. Its format system allows that, where most of the time the Rotation Format of Poke'mon only allows a handful of decks to make top cut and everyone scrambling to get those cards.

As for expenses, Yu-gi-oh! has some very good cheap decks. Plus they are reprinting their really expensive tournament staples. Plus I don't spend much on that game or TCG's in general. I trade before I spend.

Thanks for commenting all!
Your comparing two formats one in which all the sets are legal and the other that has a handful of sets that are legal and then complain about the smaller one not being as diverse as the larger one...ok.

Also no, you can't even begin to compare the prices in YGO to pokemon, they abuse the secondary market as much as they can, why else would they have such rare cards, different rarities and low print numbers of cards? I remember one instance in particular in which Rageki was $50 before one sets release to which it was printed as a common and the price tanked to a quarter. That's not even a worse case scenario situation for YGO either that is probably one of the lesser stories that aren't even comparable to the typical bannings of $100+ cards all the time. The price range isn't even comparable to the eternal magic formats, where cards do end up the 100s, but it might be a few cards, not every single one, and that's MTG we're talking about. Don't even begin to compare prices with pokemon, where a top tier deck might be 100 and that's a pretty polished one at that. Sure there could be your corner cases in YGO where theres been this random competitive deck in YGO that's been fairly cheap but that doesn't compare at all to the typical money madhouse that is YGO. You shouldn't have to pay as much as you would for a pokemon deck as you would for a single card, that is ran as a 3 of in YGO.

If money wasn't an issue in YGO, then why is it a typical stereotype for YGO players to steal? I never hear anything about those pokemon players or those mtg players always stealing stuff, it's always the YGO players that I hear that about. You know why? Because they see the game, want to get into it, and then they start hearing these ridiculous figures being thrown around and other people already doing it, and there's pretty much only one way theyre going to get those cards. The secondary market has definitively been blown out of proportion, and isn't reasonable at all.

To end my statement YGO has nothing over pokemon even with it's small format and limitations in how complex design can become, it's still extremely inviting of people of all backgrounds and ages to come and play, sure your cards will lose value completely in the next few years, but hey you didn't really pay that much for them to begin with. Not to mention the convoluted and obscure mechanics, unnecessary 4 digit life system and font sizes made way way too small. You also can't even become attached to any of the cards, magic creates whole backgrounds and stories, and the flavor text actually makes since with the card they make, pokemon's created a whole world, tv show, video game, and even incorporates those characters into tcg. What does the YGO card game really have to do with the show? The fact that there's the same creatures there? ok... so they're pretty much connected by a name basis strictly, no story, no connection, just hurr durr monsters, oh look these things are in the show too.
 
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I like the current rotation system they have. Too many bans and erratas can make a game too complicated, I like the fact that Pokemon can just say "4 copies of any card in the game except basic energy which is infinite", not having to worry about banned or restricted cards is one of the advantages the Pokemon TCG has over the big two.

They've really been moving in the right direction recently too, reprinting old attacks/abilities on new Pokemon. I think that any effect that is beneficial for a metagame (for variety's sake or something that keeps certain broken combos in check like catcher) should be reprinted so that it's in each format. eg Clefairy/Clefable's Metronome got reprinted as Foul Play, this is a good attack to have in the meta as it can be a good counter to many threats and is a nice flavor card unlike a lot of Pokemon with some very vanilla attacks. They could put it on almost anything too; Altaria, Mightyena, Xatu, Grumpig, Starmie and many others are all Pokemon that could do this very easily. If they kept this practice up than there wouldn't be much of a need for the older cards anyway.
 
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Extremely interesting insight, Otaku and Sabett. I appreciate it.

I am still in the Yu-gi-oh! game, so I can reference kinda what you are talking about, Otaku. However, a side deck is built against the obvious meta. Since you no longer in the game this will kinda be obscure, but when Six Samurai made their comeback earlier this year, it was hard to keep up with. The deck was absurd, once Shein-en hit the board it wasn't pretty. But the counters for that, Gozen Match and Rivalry of the Warlords were in everyone's side board in order to counter that strategy.

On the next ban list, Shein-en was at one and Gate of the Six Samurai was at one. They took a shot at key cards of a too powerful deck. However in Yu-gi-oh! there is a myriad of decks in the format that make it so diverse that the format is hard to predict. Someone might come up with Fish/Zombie OTK or Kuriboh Swarm; who knows?

My point is the Side Deck should be a tool. In the end, It might not be right for pokemon. However, if it is to be tested we need to be smart about it. Maybe five cards instead of fifteen? Again these are ideas.

We need to observe and report and see how such a massive and expansive format would work. Some decks are going to be crazy. And it might appeal more to the older generation, but it would be fun. I'll see if I can get a few folks to dabble into this long neglected piece of Poke'mondom and see what happens.

In the end, what Otaku prodded at is what Yu-gi-oh! has over Poke'mon: diversity. Its format system allows that, where most of the time the Rotation Format of Poke'mon only allows a handful of decks to make top cut and everyone scrambling to get those cards.

As for expenses, Yu-gi-oh! has some very good cheap decks. Plus they are reprinting their really expensive tournament staples. Plus I don't spend much on that game or TCG's in general. I trade before I spend.

Thanks for commenting all!

http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=7036#more-7036

Because Angels and Plant Synchro isnt running ramped. Pokemons format for worlds was pretty much the same thing: MegaZone, Reshi, and Stage 1. Emboar Magnazone, and Ross.deck simply fall under Karakuri, Tech Genis, and Anti-Monsters. They just happen to have extremely good decklists and won the WORLD championship.

In yugioh, I've never seen a Shonen/YCS top 16 without a large majority being two types of deck. If you played in the Tele-dad format, you know how different of a game it is from now, I'll give you that.
 
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