BW-on Tornadus EX / Ho-Oh EX

[ryuninja]

I'll be attending (hopefully) 2 Battle Roads using this build, on Sept 1 and 2nd. lmk what you think.

10
4x Tornadus EX

Tornadus is the main attacker and optimal starter of the deck. The speed and aggression it provides is invaluable; it is able to take early prizes and disrupt the opponent's set-up against all the top decks of the format.

2x Ho-Oh EX

Ho-Oh acts as an energy accelerator when used in conjunction with Energy Switch. It can also attack for 80-100 as early as turn one, or revive itself and start swinging in the late game when you're low on resources.

1x Mewtwo EX

Mewtwo is primarily used to counter the opponent's Mewtwo, which could deal some serious damage to your Ho-Ohs and Tornadus otherwise.

1x Sigilyph DRX

Sigilyph is used as both a Mewtwo counter and a counter to opposing Sigilyph. It's also an excellent pivot against Eels and other EX mash-up decks.

2x Bouffalant DRX

Bouffalant is another EX counter to help me trade prizes favorably. It's used to force the opponent to take that "Seventh Prize".

*changes in testing:
-1 Tornadus EX
-1 Bouffalant DRX
+1 Mewtwo EX
+1 Sigilyph DRX

34
4x Professor Juniper
4x N

4x Random Receiver
4x Ultra Ball
4x Pokemon Catcher
3x Super Scoop Up
3x Eviolite
3x Energy Switch
2x Tool Scrapper

3x Skyarrow Bridge

Super Scoop Up is used in place of Switch or Max Potion because of SAB giving all my poke 0 or 1 retreat, and Tornadus being so much easier to set up with a DCE in hand than in discard.

Eviolite is Used to give my 160 and 170 HP EXs some extra bulk and help them survive 2 night spear and the like. It also helps my Bouffalant wall EXs more effectively, and saves Tornadus from OHKO by a 3 energy dragon burst, or a X2 Volt Bolt.

16
4x DCE
3x Psychic Energy
2x Fire Energy
2x Lightning Energy
1x Water Energy
1x Grass Energy
1x Fighting Energy
1x Darkness Energy
1x Metal Energy

*Suggestions that are thought-out and voiced well with rationale are appreciated.

 

[Rambo]

If possible try bumping up the Ho-oh count to four for more consistency

 

[Margarita]

I run a ho-oh ex/tornadus ex deck as well. The super scoop up in the place of switch is a great idea but I'd highly suggest having 2 of each basic energy. After putting a couple tornadus exs on the field, even with DCE theres a high chance that you're going to use some of your basics up that could be on ho-oh. The whole point of ho-oh is to get itpowered up as much as possible and ideally you want all 8 on him for a 180 attack. If you have one of each basic, this seems unlikely.

Having Sigilyph and bouffalant in there might not be worth the lack of energies. Especially when Sigilyph requires the uneven balance of more pyschic (when even mewtwo can use a DCE). It's going to come down to a personal choice on that one because those cards could help counter but you really need 2 of each energy for this deck.

also I agree with rambo but I'd suggest just one more ho-oh ex and not to have 2 more. you want a larger chance of discarding fast and 2 riskes a higher chance of one of them being prized.

 

[ryuninja]

If possible try bumping up the Ho-oh count to four for more consistency

even when i tested it at 3, i was forced to start with ho-oh far more than i'd like. 2 is the perfect number, since i see it enough to consistently be able to drop a fully charged ho-oh mid-late game, while statistically only having less than a 20% chance of starting with it. i've found that in the builds that focus solely on setting up a ho-oh turn 1-2, you end up burning through way too many resources to do so, which causes the deck to run out of steam very fast, while decks like darkrai/hydreigon can drag the game out to where you will eventually run out of options and lose.

I run a ho-oh ex/tornadus ex deck as well. The super scoop up in the place of switch is a great idea but I'd highly suggest having 2 of each basic energy. After putting a couple tornadus exs on the field, even with DCE theres a high chance that you're going to use some of your basics up that could be on ho-oh. The whole point of ho-oh is to get itpowered up as much as possible and ideally you want all 8 on him for a 180 attack. If you have one of each basic, this seems unlikely.

i think you are mistaking this deck's strategy. the main attackers of the deck are tornadus, and occasionally mewtwo. you should never attempt to waste that many turns of set-up on ho-oh...ever. the most energy you'll really ever need on ho-oh is 4, which is relatively easy to supply in here despite my low(er) basic energy count.

Having Sigilyph and bouffalant in there might not be worth the lack of energies. Especially when Sigilyph requires the uneven balance of more pyschic (when even mewtwo can use a DCE). It's going to come down to a personal choice on that one because those cards could help counter but you really need 2 of each energy for this deck.

running 2 of each energy in addition to my DCEs requires me to run 20 energy...that's a third of the deck. even 16 energy can occasionally lead to dead draws, 20 would just add to the inconsistency.

granted bouffalant and sigilyph are new additions in here, so i'll continue to test them and see what results they bring.

also I agree with rambo but I'd suggest just one more ho-oh ex and not to have 2 more. you want a larger chance of discarding fast and 2 riskes a higher chance of one of them being prized.

due to my large array of attacking options in here, i'd say my deck relies alot less on ho-oh than other builds. i chose to run 2 ho-oh instead of 3 or 4 because of the decreased chance of starting with ho-oh. 10 basics isnt alot, and when nearly half of those are pokemon you REALLY dont want to open with, there's a problem.

 

[fluttercraft]

i would remove boffolant for another slighyph. they both are ment to counter ex cards but slighyph cant be hurt. and if they switch for a non ex attacker ether retreat with Skyarrow or scoop. i could also see cherins being helpful in the deck. i haven't played the deck but i think ether that or energy searches would be more beneficial than energy switch.

 

[ryuninja]

i would remove boffolant for another slighyph. they both are ment to counter ex cards but slighyph cant be hurt. and if they switch for a non ex attacker ether retreat with Skyarrow or scoop. i could also see cherins being helpful in the deck.

they're both good in different situations. running just one or the other will leave you weak in certain match-ups.

here's a pro/con list for the two:

Sigilyph

pros:
ex's cant touch dis
psychic typing lets it OHKO sigilyph, OHKO mew ex (with 1+ energy), and OHKO/2HKO mewtwo (OHKO if 4+ energy)
1 retreat cost (0 with SAB)


cons:
POOR DAMAGE OUTPUT
- barely scores a 3HKO on ex's with energy
- forced to 4HKO any ex with eviolite and less than 3 energy, or any ex with 0 energy
- forced to 4HKO raikou ex and darkrai ex (with 2 or less energy on the first psychic)
fragile body makes it susceptible to OHKO by any popular non-ex
requires specific energy to attack

Bouffalant

pros:
most ex's are forced to 2HKO or 3HKO
tank hits from any pokemon well with eviolite
2HKO any ex
colorless energy requirement

weakness:
still gets killed and is affected by special conditions of EXs (although you still trade 1 for 2 prizes)
2 retreat cost which means you still have to discard an energy with SAB
fighting types?


overall bouffalant is the more versatile threat, and can set-up more consistently than sigilyph. out of the top decks this format, bouffalant is better in the garchamp and empoleon match-ups, while being equally good if not slightly better against darkrai. sigilyph is only better in the raikou eels match-up (and barely so if the opponent is maining zekrom) and against rogue garbodor decks.

i haven't played the deck but i think ether that or energy searches would be more beneficial than energy switch.

... then why comment?

 

[vaporeon]

I play Ho-Oh EX as well and I can tell you for sure you don't need most of those cards. You don't need Rufflet, Sigilyph or Bouffalant. Just use starter Pokemon to help you setup. Sableye is good for that.

Energy Search and Energy Switch are needed in the deck to work right. I would up the Mewtwo EX to about 2 or 3 because Ho-Oh ex does not like Mewtwo EX. Ho-Oh EX is a very versatile attacker so you have room to tech a bit, depending on the energy you use. Those other options would be Terakion, Shaymin ex and Giratina ex and they all work great with energy switch. Think outside the box for a bit.

Remember, Ho-Oh ex won't one shot anything so don't go for that. Focus on the two hit ko's. 100 damage a turn is fine as well.

Remove 16

-2 Rufflet
-1 Sigilyph
-1 Bouffalant
-3 Super Scoop Up
-1 Pokemon Catcher
-1 Random Receiver
-2 Fire Energy
-2 Lightning Energy
-1 Water Energy
-1 Metal Energy
-1 Psychic Energy

Add 16

+1 Mewtwo ex
+1 Ho-Oh ex
+3 Sableye
+3 Energy Search
+1 Tool Scraper
+2 Fighting Energy
+2 Grass Energy
+3 Darkness Energy

 

[kiseki]

I play Ho-Oh EX as well and I can tell you for sure you don't need most of those cards. You don't need Rufflet, Sigilyph or Bouffalant. Just use starter Pokemon to help you setup. Sableye is good for that.

Energy Search and Energy Switch are needed in the deck to work right. I would up the Mewtwo EX to about 2 or 3 because Ho-Oh ex does not like Mewtwo EX. Ho-Oh EX is a very versatile attacker so you have room to tech a bit, depending on the energy you use. Those other options would be Terakion, Shaymin ex and Giratina ex and they all work great with energy switch. Think outside the box for a bit.

Remember, Ho-Oh ex won't one shot anything so don't go for that. Focus on the two hit ko's. 100 damage a turn is fine as well.

Remove 16

-2 Rufflet
-1 Sigilyph
-1 Bouffalant
-3 Super Scoop Up
-1 Pokemon Catcher
-1 Random Receiver
-2 Fire Energy
-2 Lightning Energy
-1 Water Energy
-1 Metal Energy
-1 Psychic Energy

Add 16

+1 Mewtwo ex
+1 Ho-Oh ex
+3 Sableye
+3 Energy Search
+1 Tool Scraper
+2 Fighting Energy
+2 Grass Energy
+3 Darkness Energy

isn't that an auto loss to sigilyph?

 

[ryuninja]

I play Ho-Oh EX as well and I can tell you for sure you don't need most of those cards. You don't need Rufflet, Sigilyph or Bouffalant. Just use starter Pokemon to help you setup. Sableye is good for that.

Energy Search and Energy Switch are needed in the deck to work right. I would up the Mewtwo EX to about 2 or 3 because Ho-Oh ex does not like Mewtwo EX. Ho-Oh EX is a very versatile attacker so you have room to tech a bit, depending on the energy you use. Those other options would be Terakion, Shaymin ex and Giratina ex and they all work great with energy switch. Think outside the box for a bit.

Remember, Ho-Oh ex won't one shot anything so don't go for that. Focus on the two hit ko's. 100 damage a turn is fine as well.

Remove 16

-2 Rufflet
-1 Sigilyph
-1 Bouffalant
-3 Super Scoop Up
-1 Pokemon Catcher
-1 Random Receiver
-2 Fire Energy
-2 Lightning Energy
-1 Water Energy
-1 Metal Energy
-1 Psychic Energy

Add 16

+1 Mewtwo ex
+1 Ho-Oh ex
+3 Sableye
+3 Energy Search
+1 Tool Scraper
+2 Fighting Energy
+2 Grass Energy
+3 Darkness Energy

I think you underestimate the amount of testing i've put into this deck...And to think you have the nerve to suggest altering a third of my deck when you clearly havent even read ho-oh's effect.

What reasoning is there to remove my one-of energies just to double and triple up on certain others?!? Multiple different types are needed both to power up rainbow burn and to increase the consistency of getting 3 energy with ho-oh. Especially when your suggested Energy Searches would make it all the easier to do so...

The Sableye engine can be effective, but in my experience it's far too inconsistent in it's set-up, and typically Rufflet just 'does it better'. Sableye is a useless opener unless you also open ultra ball, in which case Rufflet is the better opener by instantly making that ultra ball live and getting you half way through your ho-oh set-up next turn instead of just beating around the bush.

Blanket statements like 'energy search is needed for the deck to work right' dont support any argument. Search isn't necessary in here at all, since there is no rush to set up ho-oh and the rest of the attackers in here don't require specific energy to attack (bar sigilyph). With 16 energy playing 3 more search cards for them just increases the likelihood of dead draws.

Removing Sigilyph and Bouffalant, my only 2 Sigilyph counters, only to add 2 more pokemon who are especially weak to sigilyph/mewtwo? Now my deck auto-loses against anything playing Sigilyph (most Darkrai/Hydreigon decks). As you said, ho-oh is a very versatile deck, so tech options work very well *erhem* Sigilyph Bouffalant *erhem*

And taking out key cards to the deck like Super Scoop up and essentially lowering my supporter line by 1 only to add in contradicting card choices like a third tool scrapper? scrapper is already dead against a majority of meta decks this format, and with your suggestions of Sableye 2 scrapper would be MORE than enough.

My first build of the deck played 2 Terrakion, and he was pretty lack-luster. The only effective way to play him without him becoming horrid catcher-bait would be to drop him + energy switch + fighting energy the turn after a poke was KO'd, and i found that with N and just imperfect draws made it too inconsistent to try and fish for that combo every time terrakion was needed. And Shaymin and Giratina are just terrible tech options. Shaymin is only useful for taking out opposing terrakion/terrakion EX, something this deck has no use for since tornadus and ho-oh make short work of those two already, and eviolite only adds to their futility. Giratina is only really useful in here for one-shotting garchomps, hydreigons, and rayquazas, but his dragon typing is a double edged sword. The dual specific energy requirements mean that the opponent will more than likely be able to set up that garchomp/hydreigon/rayquaza first, making giratina a waste of 2 prizes.

What irks me the most about your post are your implications that I 'think inside the box' and that fundamental principles of this archetype like teching different attackers and not using ho-oh to OHKO never occured to me.

Overall your comments and suggested changes were just poorly thought out, so id appreciate it if you wouldnt post if you dont know what you're talking about.

 

[vaporeon]

Well then whats the point of posting your deck here in deck help if you don't want the help? like I said. I PLAY Ho-Oh EX. I know how the card works. I pull off turn 1 Ho-Oh in both of my Ho-Oh deck very consistently.

Ho-Oh ability says if this Pokemon is in your discard pile, flip a coin. If head, put it onto your bench with 3 different types of energy and attack it to it. From my experience with playing Ho-Oh and I have been playing it for months before its release, I found that going for 2 hit KO's are best for it. The reason is because ANY competitive player will just throw Mewtwos at you 6+ energy Ho-Oh EX and what would you do. You can't respond to their mewtwo with just your 1 mewtwo.

You asked for deck help and I gave it to you. Your build of Ho-Oh EX is very inconsistent. If you're not willing to accept help, then don't post your deck.

 

[vaporeon]

isn't that an auto loss to sigilyph?

Ho-Oh is pretty much a auto-loss to it. The best you can do is run techs, Giratina EX is good for that purpose.

 

[Rambo]

Vaporeon only posted helpful deck advice as a gesture of kindness, and you discredit it in such a harsh manner.

If you don't want advice from anyone and not listen to anyone's suggestions then don't post here, it's called deck help and strategy for a reason.

 

[ryuninja]

Well then whats the point of posting your deck here in deck help if you don't want the help?

i am willing to listen to advice. i analyzed everything you had to say, and it was all clearly garbage. the only semi-feasible suggestion you made was the addition of sableye, which i will have to further test, but in theory-oh anyway (and JPN results) rufflet is the better choice.

Ho-Oh ability says if this Pokemon is in your discard pile, flip a coin. If head, put it onto your bench with 3 different types of energy and attack it to it. From my experience with playing Ho-Oh and I have been playing it for months before its release, I found that going for 2 hit KO's are best for it. The reason is because ANY competitive player will just throw Mewtwos at you 6+ energy Ho-Oh EX and what would you do. You can't respond to their mewtwo with just your 1 mewtwo.

1. No decks this format run Mewtwo except an occasional eel variant and rogue EX mash-up decks like mewtwo/terrakion/bouffalant.

2. I have my own mewtwo AND sigilyph to counter their mewtwo.

3. how in the heck would i have a 6+ energy ho-oh?!?! i RARELY have more than 4 energy attached to ho-oh in my build that runs all 8 types of energy. with your suggestions in place i'd only be running 2 Psychic 3 Grass 3 Fighting 4 Darkness...a total of FOUR types of energy. that means that i'd be hitting for 100 MAX, and that's if i hit every different type of energy in the deck.

like I said. I PLAY Ho-Oh EX. I know how the card works. I pull off turn 1 Ho-Oh in both of my Ho-Oh deck very consistently. You asked for deck help and I gave it to you. Your build of Ho-Oh EX is very inconsistent. If you're not willing to accept help, then don't post your deck.

note how my deck is called tornadus ex/ho-oh ex and not the other way around. i've explained multiple times in this thread that the deck does NOT focus on getting out ho-oh. ho-oh is just an easily accessible tool for late game after i get hit by an N or what not, having a poke that can come out of nowhere and hit for 100 is the only value ho-oh brings to this build.

Ho-Oh is pretty much a auto-loss to it. The best you can do is run techs, Giratina EX is good for that purpose.

not true at all. all successful ho-oh builds main outs to sigilyph. my own sigilyph and bouffalant, as well as braviary (should i choose to add it back in) severely lessen my weakness to sigilyph.

 

[turtlestar]

Any suggestions are appreciated.

QFnotbeingevenremotelyclosetoT

 

[ryuninja]

QFnotbeingevenremotelyclosetoT

edited the OP to make it more accurate

 

[pj_graphix]

dont know how practical it is, but Beautifly (DrE) has Triple Energy- "Search your deck for 3 different types of basic Energy cards and attach them to your Pokémon in any way you like. Shuffle your deck afterward" as a move for 1 leaf energy. and can heal your whole bench for 40 counters each while doing 40 damage..

 

[Rambo]

Imhotep is that you?

 

[ryuninja]

dont know how practical it is, but Beautifly (DrE) has Triple Energy- "Search your deck for 3 different types of basic Energy cards and attach them to your Pokémon in any way you like. Shuffle your deck afterward" as a move for 1 leaf energy. and can heal your whole bench for 40 counters each while doing 40 damage..

that's a different deck entirely. those builds focus on attacking solely with ho-oh, which i tried to steer away from with this build.


in other news: i ended up getting top 8 in my BR today (60+ ppl, 48 masters) and getting some lucrative champion points woot

quick tournament report:

i ended up playing the same list in the OP but -2 Rufflet +1 Bouffalant DRX +1 Tornadus EX after a bit of scouting and determining that there were only around ~6 garchomp decks at the event.

since i dont own hardly any current cards IRL i mostly just bum cards off my friends for tournaments, and proxy the rest of the time at league. a friend of mine that i was expecting to borrow 3 catcher from didn't show on time so I ended up having to go the day with only 1 catcher i subbed the other 3 catcher last minute for 3 pluspower for extremely sacky emolga/sableye blow-through donks.

round 1 vs Tornadus Ho-Oh mirror match

i had no idea anyone else at the tournament was playing ho-oh so i was really surprised when he junipered a rufflet turn 1 :O throughout the course of the game i ordained that he was running a very similar pokemon line-up to me, and after the match i asked to see his build and saw my exact line-up only -1 tornadus -1 mewtwo -1 bouffalant +3 rufflet +1 ho-oh

we both opened tornadus + DCE w/out SAB, on turn 3 i set up a ho-oh and super scooped up my tornadus for the KO to put things in my favor. late game we got stuck in a sigilyph cold war until time was called. i had 2 prizes left and he had 1 on my last of the three post-time turns; i played juniper to draw the last 5 cards of my deck in an attempt to catcher up his injured tornadus for the game, only to find out my only catcher was prized -__- GG

0-1

round 2 vs Quaza Eels

this is an interesting match-up for my deck. eviolite plays a key factor in saving me from lots of different OHKO, and sure enough i traded prizes with him via tornadus + eviolite until i dropped a sigilyph + DCE + energy switch for a surprize KO on his mewtwo taking my last 2 prizes. GG

1-1

round 3 vs Garbodor/Terrakion

after surveying the venue during the last 2 rounds it was made apparent that there were an obsene amount of garbodor decks at the tournament, i believe around 8 or 9 :O ...i had barely considered that deck when testing, but my last minute decision to put in a fourth tornadus really came in handy. i didnt worry about taking out her garbodors, i just sweeped his terrakions with tornadus + eviolite. buffer 40 off their attacks and they're forced to 4HKO me while i 2HKO them...seems fair right? GG

2-1

round 4 vs Darkrai/Hydreigon

i really dislike this match-up. it's very unfavorable to me without catchers to prevent his hydreigon set up. fortunately i opened well and took a turn 1 prize off of tornadus + DCE + SAB + pluspower against his opening of sableye + deino. that severely slowed him down, and he whiffed a crucial max potion mid-game which cost him the game. i feel like i sacked him but oh well, GG

3-1

round 5 vs Garchomp/Altaria

normally garchomp/altaria can be a pretty even match-up, but he's a guy that goes to my local league and i knew he didnt play any max potions so i totally counted this off as a free win ^_^ .. i ended up having to start ho-oh (i reduced it to 2 to prevent exactly this) which wasn't too terrible as i was able to retreat ho-oh turn 2 for my benched tornadus with DCE + SAB to get an early KO on gible. i controlled the game fairly well from that point, but i got 3 tails on super scoop ups and made a risky prediction that cost me the game (the prizes were 1-2 in my favor when i sent out a ho-oh with 4 energy against his garchomp + 2 altaria, seeing as he hadnt evolved his swablu on bench even though he had a gabite in play which immediately told me the altaria was prized. the next turn he showed me the prize he had just taken off my bouffalant... altaria -__- fml).

3-2

round 6 vs Garbodor/Hammertime

i whiffed the donk but still ended up setting up a tornadus turn 2 and ho-oh turn 3 to aggro him before he could even get set up. 6-0 GG

4-2

i found out both the guys i lost to ended up 5-1 so my tiebreakers got me 7th place. true story bro...dis deck is legit.

 

[Fox_Master51]

I personally would not run Rufflet as it brings Pokemon to your hand and not your bench. Also seeing as how Chirp is an attack, your opponent could use N and send them back to your deck. Run Emolga or even Elgyem; either one is better than Rufflet IMO.

 

[Rambo]

I personally would not run Rufflet as it brings Pokemon to your hand and not your bench. Also seeing as how Chirp is an attack, your opponent could use N and send them back to your deck. Run Emolga or even Elgyem; either one is better than Rufflet IMO.

Idea is to discard Ho oh from your hand, not put it on the bench.