Werewolf XIII: Ascension of the Packmaster (ENDGAME: See Post 812)

[moza]

Lakak survived as long as he did because we realized he had no bullets left. This means that if he turned out to be an indie (and he did) he was relatively harmless (and he was)

nah. as you can see, the role said i had 6 bullets. I lied and said i had none left, cause i was gonna save it till right before i got lynched, but i got replaced and my replacement did absolutely nothing

 

[Kayle]

nah. as you can see, the role said i had 6 bullets. I lied and said i had none left, cause i was gonna save it till right before i got lynched

Wouldn't the better thing to do be to shoot the last person in the town or something to make winning easier?

 

[waynegg]

I have just one question based on your very first rule:

1) Object of the Game

The object of the game “Are You a Werewolf?” is dependent on what side of the game you are playing on. There are two main factions: the Werewolves and the Townspeople. Townspeople win the game when they have eliminated all Werewolves from the game. Whereas, the Werewolves win the game when there is an equal amount or more Werwolves in the Village at the end of a day or night.

Since the one and only condition for the town had to fulfill to win was kill all the werewolves, why didn't the game end when that one and only condition had been met?

nah. as you can see, the role said i had 6 bullets. I lied and said i had none left, cause i was gonna save it till right before i got lynched, but i got replaced and my replacement did absolutely nothing

I thought the fact that you still had a shot left would have become self evident as soon as it was disclosed that the revolver I got had 6 shots. I was surprised no one pressed the issue.

 

[DarthPika]

^ Any last man standing role overrides that.

 

[Azure Kite]

And this people is why we should Vote Lakak day one....

That's what I said.


.....as soon as I died.

The whole AK thing was probably the best thing to happen to the town this game. I think the problem with a lot of the recent werewolf games is how many players have night roles. IMO night roles should be unusual. When almost every townie has a night role, the wolves don't stand much of a chance. I know it makes things boring, but something needs to happen to make the town less powerful. Maybe keep a high number of townies with night roles, but make them more basic and less good. Maybe 3 seers and 3 priests but all with only a 25% chance of working. It lets lots of players have something to do at night, but doesnt make the town overpowered.
Also, I'd like to keep this thread alive discussing the werewolf in general. There are things that come up mid-game that I don't feel comfortable talking about during the game. One thing that comes to mind is role-reveals. Why does everyone hate them so much?? I could see a large number of people role-revealing being a good thing for the town. People seem to fly off the handle when someone role-reveals, but I kind of like it. It gives me, as a townie, more information to work with. I know it does the same for the wolves, but I don't see the advantage to the wolves being that much greater. Discuss pls.

It was the biggest fluke of the game. I prefer AT's method of role giving...not giving a role like that to a volatile player would've made for a more enjoyable game, IMO. And I might've lasted a bit longer. And we might've won. I had always wondered how me and Lucario EX would do as a team....ugh. And you're just happy because I would've been the biggest threat to your agenda, like last game. As far as role reveals though, in the card game upon which this game is based (or vice-versa, idk) , it's not allowed to reveal who you are until death. Most people play that game first. The psychology of it makes it appear taboo. That, and half the fun is the guessing game. I think even more than that, in a social internet setting like the Pokegym, where people know people, it's a fun game to match characters and play styles with roles.

Anywho, I guess maybe it was a good game? I dunno, I stopped reading fairly quickly. Congratz, townienubs. When's the next game? I'm eager to actually get some action.

 

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

Also, here is my role in case anyone was curious.

25. Son of a Preacherman(Arcanine/Arbok Master): You are the Son of the Preacherman. You think you have the power to protect others, just like your daddy, but you are sadly only powerless. Hopefully you are better at sniffing out Wolves who threaten the town because you by yourself are about as threatening as a child with a teddy bear...

WIN CONDITION: Town wins.

 

[Diaz]

And you're just happy because I would've been the biggest threat to your agenda, like last game.

Lol of course that's why I'm happy. I know the game would've been much more difficult with you as a wolf.

As far as role reveals though, in the card game upon which this game is based (or vice-versa, idk) , it's not allowed to reveal who you are until death. Most people play that game first. The psychology of it makes it appear taboo. That, and half the fun is the guessing game. I think even more than that, in a social internet setting like the Pokegym, where people know people, it's a fun game to match characters and play styles with roles.

See, that doesnt do it for me. I'm all about playing to win, and if role reveals help me win, I'm for them. So if I'm a townie and role reveals help the town win, I support them.

 

[Cardzmaster2004]

ROLE DUMP

These are all the roles of living players at the end of the game.
---------------------------------------

5. Kingmaker (PkB): You are the Kingmaker. As the expert adviser to the King up until his mysterious death, it is your job to appoint a leader for the Town. Sadly, per the laws of the town, each leader’s term is cut short, reigning only a day until the King’s appointed heir returns from the central castle.

Each night, you will PM me the names of three players in the game (Rank them 1 through 3, where one is most desired, two is second-most, and three is third-most). The top remaining player will be named King for the next Game Day is the ONLY person who can vote during the next game. In a single word, you are choosing the one person who will vote someone out of the game. There are only two rules that govern whom you may chose:
1) You may NEVER chose yourself as King.
2) Once a person has been chosen as King, you may not choose that person again for another three days.

WIN CONDITION: Town Wins.
-------------------------------

9. Seer (shinygyarados): You are the Town Seer, ignored by the Guards when you decreed that the Town would be attacked by Wolves and those in charge would be killed. Now that the Wolves have integrated themselves into the town, you must use your powers to discover them.

Each night, you will PM me the name of one player still in the game. You will then learn the alignment of that player.

WIN CONDITION: Town Wins.
-------------------------------

11. Detective (Diaz): You are the Town’s Detective and are hot on the trail of the Wolves. You know they killed the King’s and his advisers. And now, you are almost positive you are on the trail of the Wolves. It’s time to take these Wolves out ONE by ONE.

Each night, you may PM me the name of a player who is still in the game. You will have a 60% chance of learning that person’s role.

WIN CONDITION: Town Wins.
------------------------------

13. Imakuni? (Time for Pain): You are Imakuni?, a person convinced he is a pokémon and member of the town. As you are Imakuni?, you are always asking people questions like, “Who’s cuter, Pikachu or me?!?!?!?”. Because of this, you must post at least one question per post. Failure to do so once will result in a private warning, twice will result in a public warning, and three times will get you jettisoned from the game by using your outfit as a giant rubber band to vault you from the game.

WIN CONDITION: Town Wins (and you’re cuter than Pikachu, but that is always true, right?)
-----------------------------------------

14. Tailor (Pikamaster): You are the Town Tailor. You are aware of the killing at the Mayor's house, but only because the garment you were creating for him will never be bought. You know that in order to get paid, you must protect the town through the creation of new, inventive textiles and clothes.

You are in the Tailor's Guild along with (Meesie6x6), your Apprentice. You may speak with this person through PM, email, IM, etc. at any time during the game. Each Game Night, you must also choose two options:

1) Search for new materials: You need to find new materials to create new items. If you choose this option, you will select one of the six town locations to search for materials. Those locations are: Regal Manor, Blacksmith, Farmstead, Jeweler, Pharmacy, Eastern Mystic Citadel.

2) Sew a new garment: At any time you have two materials, you may try to combine them into a new item. If successful, you will lose those two items and gain a new item with special abilities. You may keep this new item or give it to another player.

WIN CONDITION: Town wins.
---------------------------------------------

15. Tailor's Apprentice(Cardkeeper): You are the Tailor's Apprentice and while it is sad the town lost its leader in the killing, you really don't care. Your entire life is dedicated to learning your trade and, beyond that, you have no life. Your internship is ending soon and you want to learn as much as possible before leaving your mentor's side. Also, you now have to survive a series of brutal Werewolf killings.

You are in the Tailor's Guild along with (Pikamaster), the Tailor. You may speak with this person through PM, email, IM, etc. at any time during the game. Also, should the Tailor ever be killed during the game, you will take over the duties of the Tailor.

WIN CONDITION: Town wins.
------------------------------------

16. Quartermaster(Absoltrainer):You are the Quartermaster for the town and are deeply saddened by the passing of the King. You feel his death is partly your fault because of the ill-repaired weapons used by the guard during the killings. You now are fully devoted to developing and using new weapons to put and end to the Wolves' reign of terror.

You are in the Quartermaster's Union along with (maddox23), your Assistant. You may speak with this person through PM, email, IM, etc. at any time during the game. Each Game Night, you must also choose two options:

1) Search for new materials: You need to find new materials to create new items. If you choose this option, you will select one of the six town locations to search for materials. Those locations are: Regal Manor, Blacksmith, Farmstead, Jeweler, Pharmacy, Eastern Mystic Citadel.

2) Weaponry: At any time you have two materials, you may try to combine them into a new item. If successful, you will lose those two items and gain a new item with special abilities. You may keep this new item or give it to another player.

WIN CONDITION: Town wins.
-------------------------------------------

20. Thief Guildmaster(smacktack15): You are the Guildmaster for the Thieves. As the leader of the Guild, it is your job to use your abilities for good, or evil...

You are in the Thieves' Guild with (Kezzup) and (Hurricane), your Grunts. You may speak with these person through PM, email, IM, etc. Also, each night, you may PM me the name of a player. If they are in possession of an Item, the Guild will take possession of the item. However, since you are trying to do good with your nightly work, you must give the taken item to another Townsperson; you cannot give stolen items to Thieves' Guild members.

WIN CONDITION: Town wins.
-------------------------------------------

25. Son of a Preacherman(Arcanine/Arbok Master): You are the Son of the Preacherman. You think you have the power to protect others, just like your daddy, but you are sadly only powerless. Hopefully you are better at sniffing out Wolves who threaten the town because you by yourself are about as threatening as a child with a teddy bear...

WIN CONDITION: Town wins.
--------------------------------------------

Game opinions from the mod will come later tonight or this weekend. Cheers!

~Cardz.

 

[Kezzup]

I'm still not sure why ShinyG's role got messed up...

 

[Azure Kite]

See, that doesnt do it for me. I'm all about playing to win, and if role reveals help me win, I'm for them. So if I'm a townie and role reveals help the town win, I support them.

Well that's great, as long as there are no rules restricting it, go role reveal right away and become a target for the wolves and one more person asking for the priest's help at night. But those of us like myself who disagree, won't support it, and won't do it.

 

[Lucario EX]

Yeah, I would have liked to know what would happen if AK had lived longer.

Pokemon99, no offense, but that was a really bad roleclaim. In the interest of helping you play better next time, what I think you should have done was:

A. Not said that both me and Jellyfisher were town-aligned. In the future, you want to make sure that at least one person on your team can't be connected with you, or at least not by much.

B. Not claimed to have targeted Jellyfisher at all. Unless he was really suspect, and/or had claimed to have a very good role (for example, if everyone was sure he was either the doctor or a wolf, but had no idea which) he probably wouldn't have been targeted by a real seer. Seers don't waste nights on random newbies.

C. Not claimed to be able to target two players each night. If a real seer could do this, they would have to be unreliable to the point of being nearly useless. Otherwise it would be broken. In addition, it's not a standard role, so it's already suspicious.

If I were you, I would have claimed an obscure but pre-existing role with similar effects to a seer. For instance, a tracker (can see who someone targets), a thief (can get flavor-based information about their target, for example stealing AAM's teddy bear), or a jack-of-all-trades. That way, it would be unlikely for anyone to counterclaim. Then, I would have said that the player on my team with the most experience was a townie, but not named any other wolves. In this case, that would have meant naming me as a townie, but not Jellyfisher. Because I'm more likely to be targeted by a real seer.
The remaining players claimed innocent would be townies who were not the most suspected, but were high-profile and likely to oppose my seer claim.

Not that I think I'm the best player here, or anything like that. I really don't. I'd appreciate it if anyone else could contribute their own advice, or correct my stupid ideas.

Oh yeah, and I'm sorry for stabbing you in the back like that. :redface:

Good job, townies.

 

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

Ya, you pretty much had to oppose him so if he died it would at least seem that you werent connected with him. Also, for the record, it seems like the wolves are at a severe disadvantage in 'gym ww games.

 

[moza]

yeah, there should be atleast 2-3 more wolves. I've never seen wolves win a game unless it was terribly unbalanced player wise

 

[Diaz]

Well that's great, as long as there are no rules restricting it, go role reveal right away and become a target for the wolves and one more person asking for the priest's help at night. But those of us like myself who disagree, won't support it, and won't do it.

What about other players role-revealing? Hypothetical: If you are a townie, and other townies role revealing helps the town win, why be against it?

---------- Post added 01/14/2011 at 01:25 PM ----------

Really what I expected from these questions was someone to show me how it's strategically disadvantageous to the town for townies to role-reveal. I guess it might not be?

Every townie is a target for the wolves at night. If you role-reveal with a role that isnt very powerful, I could see you becoming less of a target. Also the wolves don't know if you're lying about your role. No one does. I could see wolves avoiding you because you aren't as much of an unknown entity after a role reveal.

The wolves have a pretty good sense of whose side each player is on. Townies don't. I think anything that provides information to the town, even at the cost of provinding the same info to the wolves, is a good thing for the town. In an ideal situation, the town could operate with complete transparency (everyone role revealing) and force the wolves into a corner. If you're a townie and you role reveal, you just state facts. Forcing the wolves to role reveal forces them to lie and make up something. Looking for lies could be easier for the town than going in blind.

Just some random musings.

 

[Kayle]

If I were a wolf in that situation, I would jump on "No I'm the seer!" or something stupid like that and call out a wolf or two.

 

[Azure Kite]

What about other players role-revealing? Hypothetical: If you are a townie, and other townies role revealing helps the town win, why be against it?

Because there is NEVER proof that it's a good idea, even if it does occasionally work.

---------- Post added 01/14/2011 at 01:25 PM ----------

Really what I expected from these questions was someone to show me how it's strategically disadvantageous to the town for townies to role-reveal. I guess it might not be?

Every townie is a target for the wolves at night. If you role-reveal with a role that isnt very powerful, I could see you becoming less of a target. Also the wolves don't know if you're lying about your role. No one does. I could see wolves avoiding you because you aren't as much of an unknown entity after a role reveal.

The wolves have a pretty good sense of whose side each player is on. Townies don't. I think anything that provides information to the town, even at the cost of provinding the same info to the wolves, is a good thing for the town. In an ideal situation, the town could operate with complete transparency (everyone role revealing) and force the wolves into a corner. If you're a townie and you role reveal, you just state facts. Forcing the wolves to role reveal forces them to lie and make up something. Ultimately, the reason role revealing is frowned upon is because the point of WW is the strength of a bunch of complete strangers against a small team of killers. It's how smart and cunning can the wolves be, and how well can the townspeople work together. THAT'S the point of the game. If for none of the other reasons I've stated, we shouldn't accept role revealing because it's not how the game is supposed to be played.

Just some random musings.

Let's think long-term here. Let's say role revealing in future games becomes socially acceptable, and almost expected. Unless we have a rules change, we still cannot post direct quotes concerning our abilities. So we still cannot believe anyone. You say you role reveal and you state facts, but you don't. The only facts anyone know in the game are those concerning their own role, their teammates (if they have any), and what the game updates tell us. And for those of us who don't want to tell our own roles, the focus is put on us because we look the most wolfy, when everyone else has already role revealed. I DO NOT want a game of find the liar. It changes the game in ways that I do not want to see. It sounds cheesy, but if winning is all that matters, then the fun will eventually be removed, going routes like that.

Finally, you assume only wolves and indies will lie. But what if a townies DOES have a good role? Remember your first game, when you said you were a priest? You admitted you had to keep protecting yourself or have others protect you. That WASTES your role. Many roles rely on confidentiality. If the wolves know who you are, then you have to worry about staying alive that much more. So if I'm a priest, I have to lie too. Things happen during the night. Lies are revealed. If we're in a game of find the liar, first lie we see, we'll pounce on. Then the person has to tell how they were lying to protect the powerful role. IF the town believes the person, then they're a target for the wolves, or one more person for the Priest to have to worry about. There are too many reasons it's just a bad idea.

 

[Diaz]

Finally, you assume only wolves and indies will lie. But what if a townies DOES have a good role? Remember your first game, when you said you were a priest? You admitted you had to keep protecting yourself or have others protect you. That WASTES your role. Many roles rely on confidentiality. If the wolves know who you are, then you have to worry about staying alive that much more.

I actually couldn't protect myself that game. Saying that I could was just a bluff to divert the wolves. What actually ended up happening, was that another priest protected me on a night that the wolves targeted me. We got an early night free of a kill from that. I role-revealed a powerful role and almost managed to make it to the end. I ended up killed by the only wolf day-kill :/ The priest play that game actually ended up being pretty strong. Having powerful roles out in the open tells the priest who the best players to protect are. Wolves end up having a tough time killing powerful roles for fear of running into a priesting. Also, there are often ways to prove yourself if you have a powerful role. I've been able to do that in each of the last two games.
I like the exchange of ideas on the game thats going on here. I'd also like to hear from other players.

 

[Lucario EX]

AK, it looks like you're not worried about some role revealing, you're worried about excessive role revealing. I think it's somewhat self-regulating. If everyone starts to role reveal constantly, it becomes more suspicious, and is gradually considered less useful.

It's already a game of "find the liar". Do you want no one to even say that they are a townie? That's what Werewolf is about. It's just more lies added in.

And claiming a powerful role isn't a complete waste of protection roles. It forces the wolves to take a risk; go for the more useful kill, or target someone who won't be protected?

JMHO.

 

[pokemon99]

Sorry lucario EX. I will definitely be more cautious about what I claim as my role. Also, Great game, and when was the last time the wolves actually won??

~P99

 

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

As far as I know, they havent. Some indies have won a few games