Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[Human Destroyer]

...didn't I answer? Well,if not, one town game. Just because I am inexperienced does not make my posts invalid, whether you like it or not:

Besides, you two are my scumreads. I see no reason to cement my vote on a not-as-strong scum read or a non-scum read.

 

[JewelQuest]

[DEL]The WIFOM, it burnsssssssssss[/DEL]

Seriously, if AT is a priest, I don't care how selfish he is, I sure don't want him lynched. This should not be used as a reason to vote someone.

I agree, but I feel that, there is a more likely chance of him being scum than a selfish priest. That is why I am voting him.

I think Rhino brought it up first, but it still makes absolutely zero sense to me. First of all, I have yet to hear of a priest in a "balanced" game that is able to protect himself. Secondly, AT said wolves don't scare him, that doesn't automatically mean he's a wolf. It just seems like an excuse to vote for AT.

It's not that he said that the wolves didn't scare him at all. Its that he pressed the point about it, he just didn't say that "I'm not afraid the of the wolves" he said that he "had nothing to fear from the wolves". That is why I am voting him.

to whoever said AT is scummy becasue he's not afraid of wolves, REALLY? How is this a scum / indy tell. I'm not afraid either, and I know my townie alignment. I see him working his scum read and willing to passionately commit to it. Again I find this as a town tell, specifically on day one.

Like I said above, it isn't because he isn't scare of them, its because he said this:

You should worry about getting lynched today, not getting killed by the wolves at night (though being a wolf yourself, you shouldn't worry bout that). Are you trying to scare me? I told you, I have nothing to fear from wolves.

 

[jpulice]

@jewelquest, NEITHER DO I

Here's the thing. They will decide to kill whomever they want. I can only play and control my game. After playing several games, I've come to lean this. Vanilla, PR, or Indy.... If you play with fear I think you play to lose.


If H-D has only played one game how does he post this:

Activity post woo!

Oh wait, you guys want me to contribute huh. *sigh* Fine.

Okay first of all school excuses blah blah blah etc. etc.

Okay! Now that that's out of the way, let's begin a real post!

Vote: Vablakes

My case? He was role fishing. If you are a power role and say what roles you think might be a game, you might end up slipping your own role, which is not what we want.

Speaking of power roles, I want to say something REALLY important. Do not, and I repeat, do not claim unless it is clear that you will be lynched if you do not. (I.E. Don't claim just because someone is voting for you. Only claim if the lynchhammer is definitely coming down on you)

Now, I'd like to put out some important advice for all town players, regardless of role:

When you read a post, put yourself in that person's shoes. Say to yourself, "If I was that player, would I say that if I was Town? Werewolf? Lone?" This is an efficient way to find scum.

Don't bother with policy lynches. It isn't worth reducing the amount of town players for any reason. If they happen to be scummy, that is of course a different story entirely.

Don't play scummy. Sounds obvious, I know, but it happens. Some people do this to avoid nightkills, but it might end up biting you in the butt later when you are forced to claim or get lynched. This is particularly true for Vanilla Townies, since you have no claim to save you, but PRs should avoid doing this like the plague.

Don't lie. The situations where lying is a good idea are few and far between. It makes people suspicious of you unless you can prove it was for a calculated risk.

Don't go down quietly. If you are getting lynched, defend yourself until the end. Self-hammering in particular is a no-no. Letting yourself get lynched without argument is playing against your win condition.

Find towntells as well as scumtells. A lot of people focus on just finding the scum and getting rid of them, but sometimes, finding a pro-town player can be just as helpful. This also allows you to add process of elimination to your ways of finding scum.

Don't bother with meta-reads or post-by-post analyses. I know that seems like a weird thing to say, but all this is doing is going into something knowing your conclusion already, and stretching a bunch of quotes to fit said conclusion. Post-by-post analyses in particular are a waste of time.

Try to avoid putting too much into one post. If someone is skimming the thread, it's unlikely they are going to read everything you say in a gigantic post. Say what you think is important, and nothing more than that.

Remember that you aren't trying to convince another player that they're scum. You're trying to convince everyone else that said player is scum. Arguing directly at them is pointless. Explain to everyone why you think they are scum.

Don't defend yourself too much. Too much of anything is a bad thing. Overly defending yourself distracts you from actively finding out scum. That isn't to say don't defend yourself, by all means do. Just keep in mind that if you are town, you know you are town and you should be looking for the scum, not worrying about keeping up a defense.

Don't think you know the whole scumteam. Chances are, you don't, especially if you have no information on said scum. Don't make up connections until someone has flipped scum, at which point you can try to find connections to other players.

Don't vote for people you don't think are scum. This should be obvious. Don't follow a wagon on someone who you truly think is town. Remember that no one except the scum themselves are certain who the scum is. Stand by what you believe, and don't let others tell you otherwise. At the same time, don't close yourself off to other opinions.

I feel like I forgot something, but maybe it'll come to me later.

I see this completely scum motivated. Trying to teach and provide good town logic, some of which he didn't even follow. He avoided PM policy lynch vote and was one of the few stoking the AT / Veg debate. I'll go back but I think he's working Kayle (very townie coatail) when he came up with his very confusing misguided logic about me and AT/Veg. Heck I'm not sure about either AT or Veg, but i think they lean town at this point. Also, you are unwilling to look at my games when I provide you information and you dismiss it. You say don't bother with meta reads, and this is one of your bigger points against me (if I recall).

UNVOTE: POKEMONROCK777
Vote: Human Destroyer

 

[Kayle]

Soooo I'm totally down with adding jpulice to our list of lynch candidates today.

@Kayle. I believe you called me out for using harsh and aggressive posting to stoke your emotions, which was one of your bigger pushes against me. However, you used the same exact tactic on AT when you called him a troll. I'm not really sure how I'm scum for this play and you are not. pot/kettle..... you get the drift. I still think you are town.

There's a pretty clear difference between me getting frustrated with AT and pointing out that he is being a troll (in an admittedly unfortunately worded way), and your... well... this:

@Kayle, I'm shocked you thought I was an MVP when you killed me! I'm honestly baffled. I was a total newb that game. Oh... I know you are talking about XVII-A, I'm just letting you know I haven't forgot about our first game, where you shamelessly killed me off. Honestly, you are heightening my suspicions, towards you. I'm obviously a threat to you. I'm not sure if you know I'm town and your are cutting me down, this is multiball and you are on a non traditional win con, ORRRRR you are lazy town, wanting me to do more heavy lifting for you. So which one is it?

(^ c+p instead of multiquoted, so formatting/smilies are missing)

That's just the best example, I love showing off how much you care about me. But your tendency in the early stages of the game day to act condescending first and actually say something worthwhile later is definitely not the same as me showing some serious frustration to get AT to shut up. As a matter of fact, I'd even go so far as to say that what I said to him was almost exactly the same as what I said to you except that I read scum on you and town on him - at that particular time - so I didn't feel a need to convince anyone else to agree with me when I asked AT to shut up.

While I'm on the subject of your strange early-game behavior, fascinating how - if I ISO you - you've shaped up noticeably since exactly after I called you out for being unusually harsh. Interesting. Overextended indeed, then?

@H-D. I've answered your questions, and quite honestly I see there is nothing to defend. How many games have you played? For some reason I think it only one or two (on another site). Please confirm.

Oops, spoke too soon. I won't say that HD's lack of experience (if he is, in fact, inexperienced) is irrelevant, but I definitely will say that your jump from "I don't see anything to defend myself against" to "You're pretty new to this, aren't you?" comes across - to me, at least - as baseless ad hominem that boils into "You're new, so I don't have to answer your questions." Fine, then, answer mine, because you still haven't: why are you acting like such a jerk to pretty much everybody and contributing nothing helpful to the town? All you are doing is confirming other peoples' findings, asking them for more, and slinking away when we notice your attitude.

Not wanting to let me slide into the background is good when a raging debate is going on. However, you seem to be focus on me and a few others. Why not everyone else. You call me out for trying to push some inactives into play. Why is it ok to allow inactives a free pass? How does this help find wolves? Ummm I think there was something else.... but I'll need to re-read again later. Oh yeah....

He probably wants to push you the most because he legitimately thinks you're the best lynch option. Why is that strange? Your response to HD thinking you're scum is to say "Why don't you think AT and Vegitalian are scum"? Sounds pretty superficial to me, and playing to his inexperience in order to make your point sound more valid makes it downright fishy.

Additionally I think your reasoning on AT/Veg debate was created to distract from me falling under a few peoples suspicions to poor. I believe at the time Vablakes had the leading wagon. You, Kayle, and thunderjolt had voted yet there was no momentum to this wagon. I don't recall anyone else acknowledging there was anything to look at.

I believe I'm the one who first proposed this theory, so I suggest you ask your questions to me, rather than HD. And I will say that AT is far too smart to try to change the subject AFTER a wagon got seriously rolling.

It gets super WIFOM-y quickly, but I've got a way more interesting question for you: why bother defending AT at all here? Our read on AT because of his perceived "interference" with our wagon on you really has nothing to do with our read on you.. So why try to say that our reasoning against AT is invalid when that doesn't help your case? The only town-aligned reason I could see is if you intended to defend AT, but this is an awfully self-centered way to do it, rather than outright saying something about how AT isn't a good lynch option. Wanting to outright dispel the connection between our suspicion of you and AT's aggression vs. Vegitalian is a more scum-aligned motivation IMO.

I guess I'm not aggressive enough with my votes for people, so here we go: UNVOTE: Absoltrainer. VOTE: jpulice.

 

[StrongRhino]

@DC: Normally I would disagree with you, but with the huge amount of inactivity we have so far, I think you've got a point. We need to start really choosing our lynch options now and stop using votes to pressure for info. It's going to take a stretch to get anybody into actual lynching range.

As it stands, it sounds like the primary candidates are AT and Vegitalian. If you disagree and/or want to add anyone else, now is the time to say so.

Otherwise, if your vote is on someone other than those two, you need to switch it ASAP or explain why you're holding out your vote. PMysterious' "I don't feel like it" is absolutely not good enough. *jabs PM with a pointy stick.*

I feel like Human Destroyer should be added to that list. Learning he supposedly played one town game, and knows enough to make that huge posts to help beginners (or look like he is helping beginners). Still think AT is the ideal choice even if just for the "I'm not afraid of wolves" thing. Need to re-read vegitilan though, almost defenently me being new, but I see little wrong with it.
Vote: Absoltrainer

 

[Crimsonsky]

Saying that my posts discredit the user assumes that said users had any credit to begin with. Honestly, your vote on me is quite scum-tastic when you break it down.

the answer is
0 > -1

1) Where have you attempted to find out my true alignment?
2) Do you agree or disagree with my post that you claim "discredits" you in which I explained in greater detail HERE? Why or why-not?
3) Why do you consider me more scummy than Absol or Vegitalian?
4) Because your main initial vote on me (which hasn't moved) was due to me wanting to get out of RVS with information that you couldn't see, I would like you to present a case as to why staying in RVS is more beneficial to the town than leaving it. You already mentioned that scum can slip in RVS, but I want to hear specific examples, because I don't buy scum slipping while making a random vote.

1

While we are here, lets look at some real commonality. In every single one of your posts, regardless of the content I am referenced at least once, directly or indirectly. Why is that?

you yourself answered this question
2
Being zero is better than being negative
3
your reactions are better to look at than Vegi and ABsol who has a lot of votes already
4
The reason changed from being getting out of RVS vote to wanting to see your reactions vote, which have been very interesting.
At SS7, I still want to know why you outed that you think Eclipse is town

 

[jpulice]

Soooo I'm totally down with adding jpulice to our list of lynch candidates today.



There's a pretty clear difference between me getting frustrated with AT and pointing out that he is being a troll (in an admittedly unfortunately worded way), and your... well... this:

NO there isn't and you know it. If you want to take the high road then don't it yourself.


That's just the best example, I love showing off how much you care about me. But your tendency in the early stages of the game day to act condescending first and actually say something worthwhile later is definitely not the same as me showing some serious frustration to get AT to shut up. As a matter of fact, I'd even go so far as to say that what I said to him was almost exactly the same as what I said to you except that I read scum on you and town on him - at that particular time - so I didn't feel a need to convince anyone else to agree with me when I asked AT to shut up.

So the I sheep Prohawk was condescending? Or was it the back and forth with Thunderjolt?

While I'm on the subject of your strange early-game behavior, fascinating how - if I ISO you - you've shaped up noticeably since exactly after I called you out for being unusually harsh. Interesting. Overextended indeed, then?

Uhhh no. I'm glad you can flatter yourself here, for being the one who so-called called me out.

Oops, spoke too soon. <----- Kayle's hypocrisy at it again won't say that HD's lack of experience (if he is, in fact, inexperienced) is irrelevant, but I definitely will say that your jump from "I don't see anything to defend myself against" to "You're pretty new to this, aren't you?" comes across - to me, at least - as baseless ad hominem that boils into "You're new, so I don't have to answer your questions." Fine, then, answer mine, because you still haven't: why are you acting like such a jerk to pretty much everybody and contributing nothing helpful to the town? All you are doing is confirming other peoples' findings, asking them for more, and slinking away when we notice your attitude.

No you are twisting my words here, and you know it. I've provided him answers to my questions. He openly refused to read the games or listen to what I said early on. I find his lack of experience interesting to the point he came in early on to provide "everyone" advice. Again my opinion is him trying to gain early town points as scum. Aslo you say I've been a jerk to everyone. Well this is just a plain exageration. I don't belive I've had so please provide links and reference to each and every player.

Please how is AT and Veg both town confirming someones reads? How is me not agree with Eclipse on PM someone else read. How is my opinion on PikaJewel not my own. How is my read on you / thunderjolt not my own. On my opinon on H-D? Please provide likes to where I'm just confirm other peoples finding.


He probably wants to push you the most because he legitimately thinks you're the best lynch option. Why is that strange? Your response to HD thinking you're scum is to say "Why don't you think AT and Vegitalian are scum"? Sounds pretty superficial to me, and playing to his inexperience in order to make your point sound more valid makes it downright fishy.

I will also say I've provided my information on why I believe they are both town. I've asked him questions about his logic yet you've also twisted those words. What is superficial about asking about a major debate that's going on and his view that confuses me (and links me to it).


I believe I'm the one who first proposed this theory, so I suggest you ask your questions to me, rather than HD. And I will say that AT is far too smart to try to change the subject AFTER a wagon got seriously rolling.

It gets super WIFOM-y quickly, but I've got a way more interesting question for you: why bother defending AT at all here? Our read on AT because of his perceived "interference" with our wagon on you really has nothing to do with our read on you.. So why try to say that our reasoning against AT is invalid when that doesn't help your case? The only town-aligned reason I could see is if you intended to defend AT, but this is an awfully self-centered way to do it, rather than outright saying something about how AT isn't a good lynch option. Wanting to outright dispel the connection between our suspicion of you and AT's aggression vs. Vegitalian is a more scum-aligned motivation IMO.

In what way. Again there is a major debate going on with two large wagons. You really think I threw my neck out there because i'm scum? Also great thank you for clearing up you made the agruement first. Your logic is faulty then. Please explain how AT or Veg starting this debate as a distraction for me?

I guess I'm not aggressive enough with my votes for people, so here we go: UNVOTE: Absoltrainer. VOTE: jpulice.

My response is in bold above.

 

[DragonClyne725]

I feel like Human Destroyer should be added to that list. Learning he supposedly played one town game, and knows enough to make that huge posts to help beginners (or look like he is helping beginners). Still think AT is the ideal choice even if just for the "I'm not afraid of wolves" thing. Need to re-read vegitilan though, almost defenently me being new, but I see little wrong with it.
Vote: Absoltrainer[/B

I'm pretty sure that by playing just one game, a person can have experience to give to newbies. Also, I think any player could read cabd's reads page and post what HD posted. You're basically outing HD because he's "new" and shouldn't know so much, which doesn't make much sense.

In response to the latter part of your post:

to whoever said AT is scummy becasue he's not afraid of wolves, REALLY? How is this a scum / indy tell. I'm not afraid either, and I know my townie alignment.

I agree with what jpulice said here. I don't see saying you don't fear wolves as any basis for a vote, which makes me think people are just blowing things out of proportion by saying something like: "He said he doesn't fear wolves! He must be a wolf!" Come on, guys and gals.

It's not that he said that the wolves didn't scare him at all. Its that he pressed the point about it, he just didn't say that "I'm not afraid the of the wolves" he said that he "had nothing to fear from the wolves". That is why I am voting him.

Doesn't having nothing to fear from the wolves = not being afraid of the wolves? I'm sorry, but I really don't see your point.

 

[Benzo]

With the current amount of inactives, and the amount of reading that there is- and with myself having only so much time keeping up- those inactives are really hurting this day. Not happy. Life is busy, I know, but sheesh, come on, really? I was liking the idea of how large a crowd there was, but it looks as if this is a small game after all.

Please inactives- POST


So on the whole issue of AT vs Vegi-

My thoughts:

AT's words: I don't fear the wolves (well, not exact but what ever) can be taken in so many ways it makes my mind ache trying to figure the endless possible combinations of open ended possible interpretations- yes, it did catch my eye for sure. But I did not want to continue to get affixed with it for too long.
I put it out of my mind, so as to continue reading onward, let it go, and continued to look and see what else there was to spot elsewhere............
Then a while ago- this thought pops in with:
"I wouldn't fear the wolves either since I am doing the work for them, ( getting a person lynched who they know is town) so they will not need to off me during the night."- Wolves would be like "Cool! AT is getting us a lynch, let's keep this guy!"- because I know I am town, I suspect a player of being scum, work on getting who I belive to be a wolf (wolves are happy at this point, free work and entertainment as a townie "attacks" a townie)- Just, I see AT's words in that manner after a real good look and second read. If I thought it was bad in the first place, seriously I would have been stuck on it and posted on it as well right off. So if anything, I happen to see what AT meant. For now.

Now, before any one says I am defending AT- I am not, I do not believe at this time he is scum. I think this as well:

Vegi comes off to me as townie right now.

Big deal, they both had a spat. Sure, it was not pretty, but both to me at least stuck to what they both believed to be a threat-- each other in the interest of the town. Looks to me as both of them at this time, they seem townie. Regarless of what each other think of each other now- not my problem to dig further into the "spat" and try to pick sides on either one of them when right now I see them both as townies.


=================================================


So, this whole bit of some one saying " my role PM isn't written in a way that tells me whether a third party exists"
Eclips?
Errrrrrrrrr, what? Please elaborate.

With this about the above role PM thingy: " At SS7, I still want to know why you outed that you think Eclipse is town "
asked by Crimsonsky-

This. This, this, this, now- my mind can not wrap around this. I do not like it.

I would like some thoughts on this.
Crimsonsky and SS7.

This is "out loud thinking on my part", so- here it goes.

SS7 is taking the whole "PM role says blah blah blah" said by Eclipse as he sees this intentional/unintentional possible mistake/slip up as eclipse being a townie because to even me when I read that sentence, I get the hint that Eclipse is possible townie due to that possible slip up/ mistake whether intentional or unintentional from Eclipse's part/behalf. (I have yet to determin if Eclipse did this on purpose or not, I will comment on this later but I am trying to stay on track on this little issue)

Now, (really, really trying to make this point understandable)- if SS7 is a wolf (let's say for my thought line process sake)- why would a wolf point out that Eclipse is a townie (by way of read, hint, whatever) if the wolves know who is town in the first place?

Then, we have CrimsonSky. Who then wants to know why SS7 "outed" Eclipse as "town" and will not let up, (Crimsonsky said "I STILL want to know" which to me is continuing to "pester")-
Crimsonsky: here are my reasons to vote for you to be lynched:


First- your "do not use roles on me at night"-- so early to post this in the game, a warning, and a risk all around (but I would love it to hit a wolf/unfriendly) it just does not add up to me to be true unless:

your protected in some sort of manner that will leave the "role user" some side effect (possibly death) that is negative regardless of who targets you (anyone, wolves, townies seer)-

You have some way to "attack/retaliate" if targeted. Not good again for us townies, and now wolves/unfreindlies will not target you and focus elsewhere, when you should be a suprise to who ever, regardless of their alience. Everyone needs to be able to play there part, in a way this robbed us townies of having your role work in our favor, even with the risk factor that is suposed to be unintentional on your part. This is a game, games have risk and gambles in them for the most part, and it is not like some one will hate you or something afterwords or anything. Besides- if a townie did target you, got the side effect/risk and it is not ale to help the town, then the next night, a wolf/unfriendly targets you- then you could/should speak up and say it was you that got the wolf- (well, unless you are really a wolf/unfriendly right now)- but anyways- your bad news right now to me, and I do not want to "risk" letting you live as I can not trust your word right at this time.

Now, with what I am saying on this about your "claim" (well, this do not target me)- personally, I would have waited quite some time to even say such a thing if being a townie regardless, period, as if I was a townie with some sort of "role" like this- there are ways to work with that role, use it with no regrets, and know when exactly to the time to reveal such a thing such as if a townie role like the seer got "whatever is comming"- just bad play on your part IMO, thus, I feel that you are now to big of a risk, and what is even more sad is that I am not certain that you are telling the truth.

Now again, this whole SS7 and Eclips thing again- really? Asking as to why some one thinks that so and so is town why? Now, before any one is all " well, asking some one as to why you think another person is town is not a bad thing"-
if Crimsonsky is looking to put attention onto SS7 for such a thing as "tell me why you think so and so is a townie' AFTER this little posting from Eclipse- SS7 (SS7.....side note here- lol, with the SS& as I hit the 7 while still shifting just to abreviate)- SS7 is a very observant player. I believe he noticed this little hint of townieness from Eclipse from that posting- and Crimsonsky seems to be drawing out SS7 and trying to get SS7 into the spotlight in a negative way.

Now, I hope everything I just posted makes sense. so here is a recap as to why I will vote for Crimsonsky:

Possible lying about his "target me" bit
Drawing out SS7 to explain his post as to why he thinks a player is town, yet a post with a good hint of that person being town to myself as I see it, it is scummy enough to be lynch worthy.
A big risk all around for good townies. A gambit? Perhaps, but then trying to draw out a player on pointing out who he thinks is town yet could already know Eclipse is town and wants to make another townie look bad.

This being day one, and with a lot of good stuff posting wise to sift through- we as townies need to unite and get our lynch in. I think that since because of "Day 1" that we need to rush - no, but really with what I see with crimsonsky at this time, and most of the time it is a shot in the dark on day one lynching (higher risk of hitting a townie, and then losing one to the wolves at night- normaly) why risk that and as a town just get the risk that Crimsonsky is possing?

So, day one shot in the dark risk for day lynch, (unless there is a big massive wolf discovery between now and the end of the day)- we have what I belive to be the biggest risk player now, crimsonsky.

Now, if Crimsonsky flips town- I am sorry, but this is my thoughts for the day so far. I really would like to hear more on your crimson, start speaking please and convince me otherwise as to why you should stick around while being a possible bomb to us townies. Look, if it turns out that you are telling the truth, and your able to convince me that your "threat role" is valid and can be believable, I will unvote you. If others agree to lynch you as well, that is for them to decide. But if you do live to see the next day because you convinced me (and us)- you had better not become an inactive. PERIOD. That I feel should be a fair condition, that if by what it is you reply to with onthis matter and you are not lynched- you become inactive and un helpfull, you should be lynched on day 2.

I am trying to be understanding to this "role" of yours Crimsonsky, but I do not want to lose any townies, and to me you the biggest highest risk factor so far in this game day.

I have thought long on this, and this is what I conlcude to be the best interest for the town.

VOTE: Crimsonsky

Reasons: already stated, sorry for the long read folks, but this is the strongest read I have above anything else right now.

Anyone else have some input to toss in?

 

[Absoltrainer]

This was 38 pages in word: It's a long one....enjoy. DO NOT SKIM THIS. Everything I put in here is important. Read it all before you make judgments on it.

Ok, well I think now is as good of time as any to explain what’s been going on. A few people figured it out, but many others didn’t. That’s fine; it appears I did a better job with my acting than I thought I would. First thing I am going to do is explain what I was doing. Second, I will examine the case against me. Finally I will convince everyone of three wolf suspects, each with strong evidence against them. I will made individual cases for all of them, then explain how they connect to each other to strengthen their case.

How experienced is A/T in this game? How has he played in other games?

Modded three of the most complex gym games, developed new mechanics that are unique to this website played in almost every single one since WW V, played several others on other site. I have a little experience.

--------------------PART 1: WHAT I WAS DOING-------------------------------------

What I have seen from Absol's past game has been very calculated, well thought out and planned play

I always have a plan, and I had one this time. This entire thing has been my plan. I breadcrumbed as such several times:

If I see something I can contribute to I will, but I see no point in posting for the sake of posting and trying to find something out of nothing.

I said I won't post for the sake of posting. I post when I have something worth saying to say. I'm not going to try and find something from nothing.

I don’t post for the sake of posting

Oh I'm hardly arguing for the sake of arguing. I'd say I'm arguing because I'm taking down scum.

I don’t post for the sake of posting.

3.) I cannot stress this enough...read ALL the posts thoruoughy and in detail...take note of what you see....

That phrase doesn’t show up that often on accident I was trying to imply that there was a much deeper meaning to what I was doing, and there most certainly was. How many people have gone after me and taken the other side on bias because I was “too mean” or “too aggressive.” Quite a few, many people didn’t even bother to read the exchange in detail until much later, and even then, people were complaining about how aggressive, how emotional, how mean I was being. People said I was acting like a “smug little troll-child on a playground.” Clearly I was getting to people, touching nerves; all a part of the plan. You see, there are two things that really, really, really make people screw up: over-confidence, and anger. I realized early on that Vegitalian was acting scummy, and his early responses further incriminated him (I will elaborate later in this post when I make my case against him.) It was early in the game day, and I needed to take advantage of this. So I went about to adopt that aggressive persona. Those who know me, know I rarely play the same style during games, in fact, I have played differently in the last 5 games I’ve played in. It makes me unpredictable, and more successful. This is why many of the more experienced players were hesitant to jump on me for my aggressive behavior. I am very confident that several of them were shaking their heads in utter confusion for what I was doing. Anyways, so I take on this angry persona, which I KNOW is going to upset some people. I planned on it upsetting people. I had to push Vegitalian to keep talking, the more he talked, the more I could gauge how he was reacting to an onslaught of pressure. He was doing the same thing, but what he didn’t know was that I wanted him to let me make a fool of myself. The more I talked, the more he talked, the more I talked, the further I set myself up for attack, which would give me a lot of useful information. As my arguments degraded to petty insults, he became more confident. Eventually he said he was getting off for the night, and it was then I ramped up my persona against others. As people jumped on me immediately for how much of a “bully” I was being, I made no attempt to hide it, cocky in my responses, and digging my own grave. By the next morning, Kayle and several others were furious at me and my “tone” and “emotional responses.” Vegitalian himself was now posting his points after seeing so many people rush to his aid, he had to be feeling confident. All through this scenario, I watch, I took notes, and I connected the dots.

I can't wait for you to try to go back and justify individual portions of your posts with him that were relevant. Maybe you will really have a point, but more likely, you'll just decide I am your new playmate.

Everything was relevant, down to the smallest detail. There was most assuredly a point to this all. Don’t worry Kayle, you have gained very close attention, but I’ll address that later in this post.


--------------------PART 2: THE CASE AGAINST ME-------------------------------------

So before I get on to accusing others, let’s look at the case against me. I have six votes against me. Before I go any farther, let’s address these votes because there is absolutely no case against me.
-----------------------------
Kayle
EDIT: As I write this, he unvoted me, so I’ll address that as well.
So my entire summary of his ridiculous case against me can be seen here:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363634&postcount=487
Go ahead and read it. Of note is that I questioned the connection between myself and jpulice because it made no sense to me and Kayle never expanded on it. He responded with an equally long post here:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363781&postcount=506
Some things in particular I want to note:
-He edited or changed EVERY single one of my quotes, either removing parts, or entirely replacing them with “nothing useful”
-On the topic of the jpulice connection:

I don't really care if you fail to see why I connect you with jpulice and I don't really care whether that connection comes out or not

So the STRONGEST accusation against me, (that I somehow connect with jpulice) and he doesn’t even have a case for it, nor evidence to back it up.


-----------------------------
Shinori

Absoltrainer seems really scummy and waffly in my opinion. Also the below post really strikes me as off.

You should worry about getting lynched today, not getting killed by the wolves at night (though being a wolf yourself, you shouldn't worry bout that). Are you trying to scare me? I told you, I have nothing to fear from wolves.

The bolded part is the key part that stood out to me. Maybe you can make a logical estimated guess on who the wolves won't kill, but you can never be sure. And this post made it feel like he defintely knew wolves wouldn't kill him. Also the tone of the post is just really off to me.

That being said:
##Unvote: Luster purge
##Vote: Absoltrainer

Not only did his post that I quoted seem off, but when I look at more of his posts they are generally large, but seem partially fluffed up for no reason what-so-ever. Absol could have easily shortened out some those posts and made them not as much of a wall. Specifically in his last post WRT Kayle, a lot of that could have been cut out and wasn't needed.

This vote for me is baffling. Shinori is voting for me because:
1.) A post where I told Vegitalian he should not worry about being killed by the wolves tonight. This is taken 100% out of context. Shinori would have you bleive that I said this because I am a wolf who know who is going to die tonight. How about we go and look at the original post….

"I want to go back to this post. If vegitalian is a wolf, than I would STRONGLY suggest we target Vablakes next. If vegitalian flips wolf that it would not be a stretch that he assumed Vablakes was going down was banking on Vablakes flipping wolf so he could go after me next using that as a basis."

Sound logic, actually. I'm not a wolf, so it doesn't apply, but I see where you're coming from. The question is, what is the reaction when I flip townie? If I get killed by the wolves and flip townie? Could draw a lot more suspicion to you. Only one way to find out, I guess.

You should worry about getting lynched today, not getting killed by the wolves at night (though being a wolf yourself, you shouldn't worry bout that). Are you trying to scare me? I told you, I have nothing to fear from wolves.

So taken in context, we see that I made this post WHILE I was grinding vegitalian for information. Rather than address that I want to lynch him today, he make a comment about being killed by the wolves. So I said he should worry about being lynched today, not being killed by the wolves tonight. Shinori took a phrase from an out of context quote and used it further out of context. No where in that quote did I imply I knew who the wolves would kill. I DID imply vegitalian would be lynched today and DID imply that if he was lynched, his concern for being killed by wolves would be a non-issue.
2.)Shinori says my posts are full of fluff and mostly with no reason.

So Shinori voted for me because of a quote he purposely took out of context, and because I make large posts. Awesome, that is the case against me.
-----------------------------
Butter_nut_ninja

Why mount a huge defense against vegitalian over listing players that defend/attack another? I think it's helpful and might be useful to us later on. It's awfully scummy to defend yourself against something as silly as a list. There's not much of a reason to do that so early in the game.

VOTE: Absoltrainer

So I am getting voted for because I defended myself against information I decided to be false? This does not even make any note of that issue. Butter_nut_ninja simply concludes that because I even questioned the list, and that I mounted a defense against the list, that I am a wolf.
-----------------------------
JewelQuest

Absol is a known vet, which, though it doesn't mean we should follow his every word, means that he knows this game well enough to have a plan up his sleeve. If he is a wolf or indie with a LMS win condition, we could be in big trouble. But if he is a townie, then we want to keep him around. Unfortunately, it is going to be almost impossible to tell.

vegitalion plays well, but is a lot more likely to slip up than Absol(Well, perhaps except for the 'not afraid of the wolves' thing), just from having(I believe) less experience.

Out of these two, I'd be more comfortable with lynching Absol. If he is a priest who can protect himself, why would he? He, as playing as town, assuming he is town, should try to help the town, not himself.
If he is a wolf, then he is one of our(the town's) highest priorities.

Thus, I feel that I should change my vote.

Unvote: G landers
Vote: Absoltrainer



1. As I have said above, I feel that it means that he is a selfish priest, or a wolf.

2. Let's see, if I remember correctly, in Werewolf XVI, he made no less than two role reveals that were so in depth and well thought out that he got most of the town to believe him(Thankfully we managed to lynch him...eventually). He is one of the most experienced players here, I believe.

Ok, so JewelQuest is voting for me because I am a good player and a veteran and if I am a wolf that is dangerous, yet if I am a townies I should be kept around. That is here entire case…she even brings up a PAST game where I was a bad guy to support this.
-----------------------------

AT and Vegi are both looking really scummy but vegi is keeping his cool as if he knows he is right, and AbsolTrainer isn't, also the whole I'm not afraid of the wolves thing makes me think, its odd that any player would say that especially if he/she is a wolf. also over agressive ness is not good at all, I personally think that AbsolTrainer deserves my vote so...

Vote: AbsolTrainer.

Ok so PikaJewel thinks that because vegitalian kept his cool and I didn’t, he must be right. I am also over-aggressive, which is bad. She implies the bad guy will always act mean, so this somehow implicates me. She also brings up that I said “I’m not afraid of wolves.” This is a great time to point something out…that who “I’m not afraid of wolves” thing was another one of my plans…several people noticed it, some people even thought it was a slip-up.

\ but there's only one way to not be afraid of wolves in this game... Methinks you made a big slip. While that would be uncharacteristic of you, I know the hours you are keeping with school, CORPS, and all which could easily cause you to goof up.

This is a valid point, and good thinking, except I said “I am not afraid of wolves” four times.

I have no reason to fear wolves.

Are you trying to scare me? I told you, I have nothing to fear from wolves.

I simply said I have nothing to fear from wolves. I said that in response to you trying to scare me into what “might happen if you flip town.” I’m not scared of that. Anymore read into that statement is silly. You’re making assumptions off something I said and putting words into my mouth without a basis of fact or truth.

I have nothing to fear from wolves, I stated this many times.

I clearly went out of my way to say this. Many people interpreted in different way, but no one thought of it in the correct way…bait. The matter of what it really means is irrelevant. Do I have self-protection? Am I just being cocky? Do I just mean that “wolves fear me?” Doesn’t matter because I’m not going to give a straight answer to that and that wasn’t the point of me posting it. The point was to throw it out there as bait and see who role-fished for it. The results were very interesting, and I will address those in the next section. Regardless, using that as a basis for voting for me is ridiculous and holds no water.

----------------------------------------
PMysterious

He didn’t vote for me, but what he posted still needs to be addressed

You know, I could vote AT just to turn around lynching non-vets but I don't care about voting, so I'll go ahead and hold my vote.

So the issue of me being a veteran and Vegitalian being new has surfaced again. Regardless of experience that in now way incriminates me.
-------------------------------------
pokemonplayer101

Wow, epic post, SS7. I don't like how you didn't vote, but still, I love the overall post and the time and evidence you put into it.

VOTE: Absoltrainer


I'm actually liking Vegitalian right now. I don't think I'd like to see him get lynched this game day.

So from what I’m getting here, he is voting for me based on Sandslash7’s post, but never says what part. The only thing I see here is bandwagon.
----------------------------
Human_Destroyer
Didn’t vote for me, but brought up this point:

Vablakes

Valblake

Unvote: Vablake

I'd just like to point out that Absoltrainer spelled Vablakes 3 different ways. Now, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it were spread out among multiple posts he made, but he spelled it 3 different ways in the same post. If he was typing it all at one time, I highly doubt he would've spelled a player's name (which, by the way, isn't that hard to spell) 3 different ways. This makes me think he went back and looked over his post multiple times before responding and/or multiple people helped write it. I know one of cabd's scumtells was something like that, so just a thought.

Here are a few things to consider:
1.) I don’t even like let people co-mod with me because I like to do things my-way
2.) I spelled it right, then wrote it the same way I was accidentally writing it before someone brought to my attention I was spelling it wrong, and finally I accidentally forgot an “s” on the end
3.) No matter how I spell it, Microsoft Word is going to see it as a misspelled word. I am really not paying much attention to that.
-------------------------------
StrongRhino
StrongRhino Voted for me as I was writing this. Here is what he posted:

\Still think AT is the ideal choice even if just for the "I'm not afraid of wolves" thing. Need to re-read vegitilan though, almost defenently me being new, but I see little wrong with it.
Vote: Absoltrainer

Give no reason except that I said “I’m not afraid of wolves.” Doesn’t question it, just goes with it. Even says he needs to re-read Vegitalian. This is the case against me.

So look at all those votes, and we can see that the reasons I am scummy are:
-I was overly aggressive and emotional
-I was mean
-I defending myself against the list
-I said “I have nothing to fear from wolves” (taken out of context twice)
-I am a veteran player who would be dangerous if I was a wolf
-I have a supposal connection (with no proof, or explanation) with jpulice
-Bandwagon (see pokemonplayer101, StrongRhino)
-I spelled a name differently (one I was already misspelling in earlier posts I might add)

If I missed something that somehow incriminates me and in any way shape or form, let me know. The only thing I see here is “absoltrainer is a meanie, let’s get him.” I see no proof I am scum, I see no evidence to back up anything, I see nothing that even possibly incriminates me. Yet here I am, with six votes (EDIT: 5 because kayle unvoted me).



---------------------------------PART 3: WHO ARE THE WOLVE----------------

I said I had multiple wolf suspects and I do. I have three to be exact:

Vegitalian
Kayle
Vablakes

Let’s start with the obvious first choice Vegitalian. Throughout the argument, many of you missed some pretty key things that happened, focusing on how “mean” I was being instead, or calling it “too painful to read.” So let me re-state my case.

Let’s start with the list, the list the started it all:

I'd like to post the following information, which should help us when we start uncovering roles. The following are players that have defended each other or claimed that someone is town. Specifically, if someone is revealed to be a wolf, it should provide us with some likely targets down the line. One strange thing I've noticed is that Pokemonplayer101 and Vablakes have been strongly supporting one another - part of the same wolf pack, or just friends? Please let me know if I've missed anyone, and keep in mind, wolves may defend townies in future posts to throw off the scent.

Crimsonsky
-> Defended by Human Destroyer
-> Defended by scorri
-> Defended by Vablakes
-> Defended by eclipse

Diaz
-> Defended by Human Destroyer

Dragonclyne725
-> Claimed town by Human Destroyer

Human Destroyer
-> Defended by TheKing
-> Defended by Luster Purge
-> Defended by desufnoc

jellyfisher
-> Claimed leaning town by Human Destroyer

Kayle
-> Claimed leaning town by Prohawk

Luster
-> Claimed town by ProHawk

Pokemonplayer101
-> Defended by Vablakes (*MUTUAL*)

Prohawk
-> Claimed town by jpulice
-> Defended by Kayle
-> Defended by JewelQuest

Sandslash7
-> Defended by vegitalian

Tables
-> Defended by vegitalian

Thunderjolt
-> Claimed leaning town by Human Destroyer

Vablakes
-> Defended by pokemonplayer101
-> Defended by Absoltrainer at first - then voted by AT
-> Defended by JewelQuest
-> Defended by StrongRhino
-> Defended by Sandslash7

There is so much fun stuff about this post, I can’t believe I’m the only one who saw it. In fact, I am NOT the only person who saw it, nor was I the only person to mention it, but I was one of the few people to act on it.

-Red:

Specifically, if someone is revealed to be a wolf, it should provide us with some likely targets down the line.

This is interesting for him to note because it implies that this list could be used in conjunction with “someone who defended a wolf, might also be a wolf.”

This agrees with what he said later down the line

The reasoning behind posting what I posted is that one of the following scenarios take place:
a) Player X dies, flips townie... Player Y and Z that defended Player X's credibility are also revealed as likely townies and avoid the lynch vote
b) Player A dies, flips wolf... Player B and C that defended Player A have a higher likelihood of being wolves

That was my logic, and reasoning as a townie to share the information I had collected.

Where he pretty much implies the same thing.

-Blue:

One strange thing I've noticed is that Pokemonplayer101 and Vablakes have been strongly supporting one another - part of the same wolf pack, or just friends?

I am going to elaborate on how this is important later on, but the fact that Vablakes was currently in the hotseat when vegitalian posted this list. Already he is making a hypothetical connection with Vablakes and another person. Later on I hypothesized he was doing the same thing to me:

the way I see it is:
a) if you're a wolf, you're definitely going to contest my post if you tried to defend a fellow wolf
b) if you're a townie, you either backed a wolf without good reason, or you have nothing to worry about

I want to go back to this post. If vegitalian is a wolf, than I would STRONGLY suggest we target Vablakes next. If vegitalian flips wolf that it would not be a stretch that he assumed Vablakes was going down was banking on Vablakes flipping wolf so he could go after me next using that as a basis.

More on this when I get to Orange.

-Green:

wolves may defend townies in future posts to throw off the scent.

At first this seems like common sensee enough info, but if you look above at red is that he said before that “wolves defend wolves” and “townies defend townie” but goes further to say that “wolves may defend townie.” He has just set up this list so that in the future, he can pretty much go after anyone. Regardless of how they flip. Contradictions are scummy, especially when they occur in the same post.

Orange:

-> Defended by Absoltrainer at first - then voted by AT

This is what tipped me off that something fishy was going on. At first I wanted to merely point out that I didn’t defend Vablakes Prohawk summed up my thoughts well enough.

A defense of a person indicates you do NOT have a scum read on that individual.

Quite simply this is the post in question:

Note that he didn't quote or referance the post in question/reason for voting. This may seem like a pointless detail, but it's actually much bigger. He can make an opinion about a post without the reader being able to compare it to the post, meaning he has much more room to twist or take out of context. On that note, here is the post in question:

So, let's get some conversation going.

What kind of roles do we expect to see in a game this big? Surely, there have to be quite a few in a game this big.

How many wolves do we think there are?

How are we going to get 23 people to vote for the same person? That is going to be difficult.

Do we use RVS day one to put pressure on random people to see how they react? Who knows, we might make one of the wolves slip up. Or do we wait to see if anyone acts suspicious?

Sorry if those are some nooby questions, but I am a noob.

How is that role-fishing? Because he said "what roles do we expect to see in this game?" And he thinks that power roles are going to be slipping and saying their role in response? The seer isn't going to say there might be seers in the game, the detective isn't going to say there might be detectives in the game, and anyone with a unique role not seen before isn't going to say it either. If Valblakes had PUSHED the topic to try and get roles, I would call it role fishing.

Read that. I didn’t defend Vablakes’ post or his actions, I didn’t make ANY comment on that post at all. What I commented on was Human_Destroyer calling it role-fishing, and I disagreed with that, decided his argument that it was was weak, and used it as a evidence against him before I cast my vote. I did not defend Vablakes and considering what vegitalian his list would be used for, and also considering that as of posting the list, I was believing Vablakes to be scummy and possibly a wolf, no I was a little annoyed that I was being labeled as defending him. The information was false and I wasn’t going to sit by and not say anything when I clearly disagreed with the false information.

There is more to this than just false information however. This list has several inconsistencies. Prohawk noted the first:

Second point that you failed to mention - I attacked HD because of his attack on Vablakes first, before Absol, yet failed to make it onto the list of associations as a defender of Vablakes.

The next is that only am I noted for my votes. No one else is noted for voting for anyone. Why would my votes be important? Plenty of other people voted for Vablakes, several people had voted for Human_Destroyer, what made my vote stand out and worth noting? He also used very strong words. If a person said a player “leaned town,” vegitalian listed them as “claiming town” or “claimed leaning town.” That changes what someone said from a gut feeling to a statement made in confidence. A much stronger word, an increase in intensity. Simarly, “defend” is much different then “argued.” I “argued” about the meaning of Vablakes’ posts, I did not defend it. I have more to say on this later. Finally, vegitalian clearly had to go post by post to make this list, he had to read the post, make an inference from the post, and note it, yet he didn’t bother to link, quote, or cite the reason for why a person was defined as doing what. This is a major point. If a person reading that list did not want to go through the trouble of finding said post, they could/would just accept what was said as fact since they had no reference quote to compare with vegitalian’s list.

Clearly not only I had a problem with this:

I don't recall defending Diaz. Could you point me to a quote?

Vegitalian 100% ignored Human_Destroyer, never responded to him, and the issue seemingly was dropped, despite the fact that we never did see this post where Human_Destroyer supposably defended Diaz. I went ahead and looked back at Human_Destroyer’s posts, this was the post I assume Vegitalian was talking about.

Not to answer for Diaz, but that's the kind of thing he says all the time. And, to be honest, I agree with him. It doesn't really help the wolves to be more active, because it gives them a chance to slip up if they are as active like a townie or called out if they're less active.

Now is this a post “defending” Diaz? Well here’s some more interesting info. The post immediately before the above quote was this:

You need to bold your votes to make them count. With that being said, I don't see Sandslash7 doing anything particularly scummy. I'd like to see Diaz respond to my claim... Until then:

VOTE: DIAZ

So Human_Destroyer said he agreed with Diaz, noting that “he says these things all the time.” But was it a defense? I searched and I was unable to find the post Diaz made that was supposed to connect here. The best I could find was this:

So your excuse is ok and everyone else's is bad?? Can you understand my skepticism here? I'm trying to make sure everyone understands that not posting often is generally a sub-optimal play. This is something that I don't think we can afford from townies.


I don't think this is a problem, especially the first day of the first game-day. I think that even mid-high level players could benefit from some of the things I've pointed out. I'm looking forward to moving onto other discussion as much as the next guy, but this is the info we have (number of players, rules specifics ect.) so we might as well say what we can about it in the very beginning.

Can you direct me to the thread where that post would have made sense? Just covering my bases here.

That is Diaz’s last post prior to Human_Destroyer making his post. I don’t see a defense there, what I do see is Human_Destroyer disagreeing with vegitalian immediately after vegitalian voted for Diaz. It’s the same issue with my situation. vegitalian’s list is build off of absolutes. You either support/defend/align with a player, or you are against/attacking/not aligned with a player. There is absolutely no middle ground. Making these absolutes so early on is dangerous, and allows for information to be taken out of context later on down the line. Considering what vegitalian wanted to use his list as a basis for (finding wolves based on early game connections) using absolutes is odd, especially when more often then not, people are posting gut feelings, with no strong stance one way or another on a player this early on.

I wouldn't say I defended ProHawk, and if you did want to say I defended him, you should probably also clarify that I only did so after pressuring him and getting a response I liked...

This time vegitalian DID respond:

^ I realize you were defending his point (more subtly his playstyle, though), but only right after I voted for him. I'm not saying any of this means anything right now, but we can draw inferences when the time comes...

Notice something interesting. “but only right after I voted for him.” That’s the EXACT same thing that led to Human_Destroyer making it on to the “defense” list. More so is the way this response is written. Vegitalian doesn’t even accept the argument, claiming that Kayle was still defending Prohawk, but once again not posting any quote or citing any evidence to back this claim. The last line is also questionable. “I’m not saying any of this means anything right now, but we can draw inferences when the time comes…” This goes to agree with what vegitalian said before, which was that his intentions were to use this list to find wolves who defended wolves. Should that means the information would WANT to be solid. Instead vegitalian refuses to accept anything that disagrees with him list. A note on Kayle here which I will expand on later on, but despite the fact that he disagrees with this list, after vegitalian simply tosses Kayle’s remark aside, similarly to what happened to me, Kayle jut completely dropped the argument, as if the fact that he disagreed with the list didn’t matter. But if it didn’t, why post at all? I have more on this later.

So obviously I made a point to note this information was wrong:

Don't twist my words, I didn't defend him, not once. I called out HD by claiming his attack on Valblakes was unfounded, not once did I defend Valblakes

Short, sweet, and too the point. I did not defend Vablakes and did not want it on record that I did, especially when that record was going to be used in the future to find potential wolves based on who flips wolf, especially since at the time, I though Vablakes was a wolf.

This is how Vegitalian responded to my disagreement:

The best defense is a good offense? I don't know what you're worried about - you voted for him, so if Valblakes is a wolf, it actually makes you look more like a townie.

These were all my impressions - whether you defended someone or not, my post was all about how I perceived your post. Back up your points - the way I see it is:
a) if you're a wolf, you're definitely going to contest my post if you tried to defend a fellow wolf
b) if you're a townie, you either backed a wolf without good reason, or you have nothing to worry about

Notice I put myself for the two people I defended? I'm not about a double-standard. If you think I wrongly put you on my list, you can quote your post and explain your reasoning behind it (it's a long list, I'm not going to quote all of the posts) - chances are that's a bad idea though.

Now remember what I said above in blue where as of posting his list, Vegitalian made a connection between Pokemonplayer101 and Vablakes early on. Now here he is again make a connection between myself and Vablakes. Now I disagreed with him saying I “defended” Vablakes. The first thing he does is make me seem like the bad guy. He implies that I shouldn’t care that I “defended” Vablakes because if he flips wolf, it will make me look like a townie. Vegitalian doesn’t acknowledge the matter of whether I defended Vablakes or not. He even says right in the post “it doesn’t matter if you defended him or not. He goes to further make me the bad guy for simply disagreeing with the information. He says “I would contest his post if I was a wolf.” He further goes on to say that “if I am a townie, I either backed a wolf without a good reason, or I have nothing to worry about.” Now even though it’s separated in an A and B format to make these seem different, they are essentially saying the same thing. “You question my list, that makes you scummy.” The entire post does nothing to acknowledge that I am disagreeing with him, it just goes to try and make me look bad for disagreeing with him. Finally read the last part:

If you think I wrongly put you on my list, you can quote your post and explain your reasoning behind it (it's a long list, I'm not going to quote all of the posts) - chances are that's a bad idea though.

This goes against what he just said:

These were all my impressions - whether you defended someone or not, my post was all about how I perceived your post. Back up your points - the way I see it is:

Where he told me it didn’t matter. Not to mention that he shot down and ignored both Human_Destroyer and Kayle whenthey disagreed with him. He further says “it’s a long list, I’m not going to quote all the posts.” This is pretty suspsisous considering he had to look at all the posts to get his impression and I am questioning his judgment. He is basically telling me to go to it myself. Then he finishes with saying “chances are that’s a bad idea though.” He is trying to discourage me from going back and finding the post in question.

At this point I decided that he was be scummy enough to act on. I posted this: http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=171226&page=17 where I basically listed the same points I just listed above, but also went for the vote as well.

He responds here: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363259&postcount=411
So he says that I am misunderstanding him and it is a miscommunication, but doesn’t clarify what his true intention to communicate was. Second is that he finally says something about me disagreeing with him saying I defened Vablakes:

“Nitpicking on words is fun, but kind of pointless. Again, miscommunication. You took it the wrong way, and are getting all up-in-arms for no reason”

He doesn’t do anything to prove I was defending Vablakes he just says I’m nitpicking words, and that I have no reason to disagree with his list. He takes the entire remainder of my post, casts it off as “perception” and ignores it, not actually countering a SINGLE POINT, I posted when I accused him of being a wolf. He then adds:

I'm not going to outright vote you (yet), but your overreaction seems a bit scummy. If I didn't touch on a nerve, you could've argued the point with less emotion and probably would've come off a lot more informed. Tear some more posts of mine apart, will you?

Calls me uninformed, calls me scummy, goes after the tone of my post, but does not acknowledge the content of the posts at all. Once again indirectly casting me in the light of being the bad guy in the situation for disagreeing with him.

I countered with this post: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363272&postcount=416

I pointed out how he wasn’t arguing any of my accusation, and was refusing to even acknowledge what I was saying, simply casting it off as “perception” and “you have no right to be upset” because it was all a “miscommunication.”

Vegitalian’s is where things REALLY get interesting.

Ok, I'll bite:

"How is that role-fishing? Because he said "what roles do we expect to see in this game?" And he thinks that power roles are going to be slipping and saying their role in response? The seer isn't going to say there might be seers in the game, the detective isn't going to say there might be detectives in the game, and anyone with a unique role not seen before isn't going to say it either. If Valblakes had PUSHED the topic to try and get roles, I would call it role fishing."

You were refuting others' points about Vablakes... Defending his post, and ultimately defending him. This was my perception - whether that was your intention? Probably not.

He finally acknowledges my “defense” argument. He says that “I defended his post” and thus “I defended him.” This goes back to absolutes. Similar to how a politician might say “you agree with one point of the other party? You support that party!” He further goes on to say that it probably was not my intention….intention? He implies that I did something without intending to? He appears to be conceding the point, but he’s really saying that I sill “defended” Vablakes unintentionally.

At this point Prohawk comes in to vote for Vegitalian:

Vegitalian

Wow. I think I see what you are doing here. Before I start consider the following question.

How close are we to revealing roles/alignments?

I am agreed with Absol and DC725. Claimed is a very strong word. I myself have not claimed anyone as town, but have them on my list of reads as town. It's important to note that reads can and should change as more information presents itself. You were also very liberal in your use of defended claims.

So I tried to come up with a town-motivated reason as to why you made post #385, but I can't.

If you were town, why not just keep the notes to yourself until it would show a useful connection? We won't see flips for quite a while.

Then I realized that you were making an early association with Absoltrainer. He is the only person on your list that you listed with conflicting actions.

a) if you're a wolf, you're definitely going to contest my post if you tried to defend a fellow wolf
b) if you're a townie, you either backed a wolf without good reason, or you have nothing to worry about

If you think I wrongly put you on my list, you can quote your post and explain your reasoning behind it (it's a long list, I'm not going to quote all of the posts) - chances are that's a bad idea though.

Ahh, yes, your intentions made clear.

Absol's points regarding your post are dead on. He hit the nail on the head.


Vote: Vegitalian

Kayle immediately follows suite:

yay I'm not crazy for thinking vegitalian is suspicious. Gotta stop putting off homework and stuff now, but I thought I'd do this much at least.

got my eyes on you jpulice. Unvote: jpulice ;; Vote: vegitalian

Let's see where this takes us!

Vegitalian ignores EVERY SINGLE POINT against him and posts this:

No, you are crazy - you're just not the only one

Hop on the bandwagon. Everyone else please note that Kayle and ProHawk have been extremely supportive of each other, so it's not a surprise that they're banding together. I'm also going to see where this goes, but for now I'm going to retract my vote.

Unvote: Diaz

With both myself and Prohawk posting heavy arguments against him, this is how he responds. This is around the time I decided I needed to press the advantage as long as I could, around here is when I initiated my plan to come on overly aggressive, gain as much information as a could, and eventually lead myself to being taken advantage of by someone who wanted to use that to try and get me lynched. So I went in for the first move.

You have yet to defend yourself in any way, shape, or form. You simply try to throw suspision on to someone else. You even did an indirect (without actually voting) OMGUS on myself AND Kayle AND Prohawk.

And you retracted your pointless and unthreatning vote for Diaz?

Get the butter out cause you're toast.

My aggressive tone aside, take note of what I am pointing out. He is very much OMGUSing

This is how he responded:

I defended my point - not even sure what an OMGUS is (nor do I care, really).

After some more thought, I don't think Kayle is a wolf. She has voted a ton of different people, which seems disorganized and out of character for a wolf (may be my lack of experience, but Kayle's not even on my radar now). Consequently, the link between ProHawk and Kayle is probably no more than just mutual respect for each other.

In response to ProHawk, what would be the point of me sharing notes if I were a wolf? Specifically, if I was a wolf defending SS7 and Tables (who theoretically were also wolves), what would be the point of me drawing attention to that?

How does my initial post point a finger at AbsolTrainer? It doesn't. I'm not even sure I suspect AbsolTrainer as a wolf after the performance he just gave.

Look at this post:
He first points out that he defended his point. What point did he defend? What is he talking about? Next his casual discard of my accusation of him OMGUSing. He goes on to say that he does not think Kayle is a wolf based soley on the fact that he voted for multiple people and wolves are more organized, even going as to say he’s not on his radar anymore. He goes on to further remove the link between Prohawk and Kayle.

Kayle’s last post prior to this one was:

yay I'm not crazy for thinking vegitalian is suspicious. Gotta stop putting off homework and stuff now, but I thought I'd do this much at least.

got my eyes on you jpulice. Unvote: jpulice ;; Vote: vegitalian

Let's see where this takes us!

Somewhere in the span of four posts, vegitalian goes from accusing Kayle and Prohawk of banding together to basically casting Kayle as pure townsperson. What sparked this? Kayle just voted for him, was he trying to earn brownie points? Why though does he go out of his way to clear Kayle of everything, but makes no mention of Prohawk? What he says to Prohawk is that a wolf would never share notes. Anyone who has played Werewolf before know this is false. A wolf wants to get in good with the town. His final point says he never pointed a finger at me, even though he called me scummy here:

I'm not going to outright vote you (yet), but your overreaction seems a bit scummy.

He responds to myself pointing out this contradiction by:

"I'm not even sure I suspect AbsolTrainer" doesn't imply that I'm ruling it out.

"but your overreaction seems a bit scummy." A bit scummy.

Not contradictory - I'm on the fence about you.

He doesn’t quote the original quote, nor even use the same ones I used. He cuts off the crucial part which is “after the performance he just gave.” Immedialy after the “performance” he called it scummy, but now claims he’s not sure he suspects me anymore. This is further interesting since he just said he no longer suspects Kayle. both of use have voted for him at this point.

At this point I brought up this:

I want to go back to this post. If vegitalian is a wolf, than I would STRONGLY suggest we target Vablakes next. If vegitalian flips wolf that it would not be a stretch that he assumed Vablakes was going down was banking on Vablakes flipping wolf so he could go after me next using that as a basis.

This is improtant and I will expand on it in the next part, but what vegitalian posts after is important and related:

My initial post did not post him in a bad light - at least that was not my intention.

Ok, assume that I am a wolf:
-I list myself as defending SS7 and Tables
-I get lynched, flip wolf
-Tables and SS7 become targets

The reasoning behind posting what I posted is that one of the following scenarios take place:
a) Player X dies, flips townie... Player Y and Z that defended Player X's credibility are also revealed as likely townies and avoid the lynch vote
b) Player A dies, flips wolf... Player B and C that defended Player A have a higher likelihood of being wolves

That was my logic, and reasoning as a townie to share the information I had collected.

He is implying that he wants to use his list to find people who flipped wolf, and people who defended those people are more likely to be wolves. Go back a bit and recall that Vablakes is under heavy pressure for the vote. vegitalian has already made a connection between Vablakes and PokemonPlayer101 and also made a connection between myself and Vablakes. He for all intents and purposes, will use his list to connect dead wolves with unknown wolves, but has been thus unresponsive to disagreements that his information is solid.

"I want to go back to this post. If vegitalian is a wolf, than I would STRONGLY suggest we target Vablakes next. If vegitalian flips wolf that it would not be a stretch that he assumed Vablakes was going down was banking on Vablakes flipping wolf so he could go after me next using that as a basis."

Sound logic, actually. I'm not a wolf, so it doesn't apply, but I see where you're coming from. The question is, what is the reaction when I flip townie? If I get killed by the wolves and flip townie? Could draw a lot more suspicion to you. Only one way to find out, I guess.

Again, vegitalian DOES NOT argue a single point against him. He goes to try and make me seem the bad guy. What I found interesting is that he never even acknowledges he has several votes against him. He talks about the wolves killing him at night, not the danger of being lynched during the day he’s in.

Ok, so I googled OMGUS and came up with this: Office of Military Government, United States

Is this right?

Useless post is useless

I responded with:

You should worry about getting lynched today, not getting killed by the wolves at night (though being a wolf yourself, you shouldn't worry bout that). Are you trying to scare me? I told you, I have nothing to fear from wolves.

Bread-crumbing by bait trap some more, and trying to keep vegitalian talking.

You have nothing to fear from wolves? So you're either saying that you're a wolf, somehow protected, or not a threat? Well, you're extremely vocal, so I'm guessing you're a large enough threat to the wolves (if you are town-aligned). We're left with two options: some sort of protected role or wolf.

Role-fishing and calling me a wolf. There is no other way to see this post. He took the bait and went role-fishing for a potential protection role. I never said anything about protection. I just said I “didn’t fear wolves.” He goes to question what would make me say that. Serious role-fishing for anti-wolf role.

Which is more or less what I said here:

You're putting words into my mouth, role-fishing, and trying to call me a wolf again. I never said any of that; I simply said I have nothing to fear from wolves. I said that in response to you trying to scare me into what “might happen if you flip town.” I’m not scared of that. Anymore read into that statement is silly. You’re making assumptions off something I said and putting words into my mouth without a basis of fact or truth. You should worry more about defending yourself which you have failed to do again and again, you have made no case for your own township, and rather you have pointed fingers and tried to cast dirt on others. I’m having a lot of fun with this though so if you would like to continue this dance, I will be more than happy to accommodate.

I specifically said that I think Kayle is town, and that your link to him is a moot point. I'm not calling all of you on my wagon 'wolves' (none of you actually - I haven't voted).

This contradicts him calling me scummy, and calling me a wolf several times.

OK, here's where your logic is wrong (re: "targeting" you):

I listed a NUMBER of people that defended Vablakes - you actually voted for him.

Vablakes
-> Defended by pokemonplayer101
-> Defended by Absoltrainer at first - then voted by AT
-> Defended by JewelQuest
-> Defended by StrongRhino
-> Defended by Sandslash7

"Then voted by AT" makes the whole thing rhetorical for you. You voted for him, so if Vablakes went down and flipped wolf, how would I get anyone to suspect you as a wolf off of that??? If anything, it shows that early in, you voted for Vablakes - why would you vote for another wolf so early into the game as a wolf yourself? There is no logic to your theory. I don't know or have any connection to Vablakes, so you voting for him means nothing to me. Good luck getting me to flip wolf!

Like I said, keep an open mind. You seem hell bent on a witch hunt (with 5 days left!) with very little information. Plenty more will unfold this week.

He claims I am on a witch hunt, not keeping an open mind, and that my logic is wrong because he included multiple people on the list. This still doesn’t address the fact that I never “defended” Vablakes but rather he tries to poke holes in my theory. He claims there is no logic in my theory, but has yet to actually comb my theory and give a defense of himself. Note that he continue to try and make me the bad guy here. All I am doing it trying to clear my name in his attempt to say I was “defending” Vablakes. He still won’t acknowledge that.

Prohawk counter the point:

Why is this concept so difficult for quite a few of you here? Wolves need town-cred. That is how they survive the lynch. Voting for another wolf as another wolf will give you that credit when the wolf you voted for flips. Doing it now (so early into the game) when you need 20+ votes for an actual lynch only makes it all the easier to bus (voting/attacking your scum-partner) without consequence. Low-risk, High-Reward tactic.

Here I posted rather cockily refuting his points: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363407&postcount=451

He responds with:

That's the point though - you're going out of your way to shoot down my points, not keeping an open mind, and succumbing to confirmation bias. You're either a really good wolf, or a really stubborn townie.

As I shoot down his points, he refuses to defend them. He then goes on to either call me a good wolf and a bad townie. Note that he continue to make me the bad guy in all this all the while ignoring the points and faults and contradictions several people continue to find in his arguments.

These are my next posts:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363415&postcount=454
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363420&postcount=456

Those posts where supposed to come off that way. I wanted someone, I wolf to see how much I was grinding vegitalian. I wanted someone to go after me for being a mean player, and try to use that momentum to get a vote started on me. It worked. Beautifully. At this point I am going to jump down a few posts because what follows involves my accusation of Kayle, not vegitalian and that will be in a following section.
So while the town argued over how aggressive I had been, how I was halting discussion, and how I was being a bully, vegitalian stay very, very quiet, just watching thwe conversation go by. When he finally posted we get this:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363733&postcount=496

He doesn’t cite or quote posts or comments, he paraphrases them into vague or out of context versions. He lets it all flow together in a mess of a post. He casually discards most of the arguments and points with stuff like “mis-communication” (which shows up seven times in that post.) He also role-fishes again, pushing to find out why I “don’t fear wolves.”

It all fairness I must acknowledge that he DID repost the post with corresponding links later on (he fixed the links a few posts down):
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363862&postcount=515

After that he keeps very very quiet. Despite the fact he is quickly racking up votes, he doesn’t say anything about it…well not until this:

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=171226&page=22

Now he is out-right calling me scum, yet something strange. Why Vablakes who was previously contested as being a wolf, and the source of our entire argument absent from this list?

His final post is this:

How am I the best choice, but not the best lynch? Bandwagoning for the sake of getting a lynch, whether it's right or wrong. At least everyone else has had their reasoning. Maybe my pressure vote was randomly right?

Vote: pokemonfreak5

I have no idea what this is about. More OMGUS’ing and a very sudden change of subject.

So looking at all the evidence I have listed above, and reading all the posts without the bias of tone or “who was being mean.” You may notice a few key points:

vegitalian
-Ignores other players accusations of him
-Ignores when players find faults or contradictions of him
-Ignores anyone who disagrees with him
-Jumps down on people who disagree with him
-Flip-flops between how important his list is to finding wolves, and saying it’s just his perception, no reason to get in a fuss about it.
-Not quoting or citing posts, instead paraphrasing them, or taking them out of context to suite his needs
-Role-fishing

Those are the big ones, and there are plenty more, but my point is made. vegitalian has been extremely scummy, and there is no reason not to lynch him today.


--------------------------------
Next is Vablakes My reasoning for him being a wolf is much less sound at the moment and based heavily on vegitalian flipping wolf, which I am very confident on. Let’s start with my initial suspicion of Vablakes

Questions like those did start conversation. Answers to some of those questions (how many wolves, ect.) would really help us. Other questions (Why RVS, what kind of roles do we normally see, ect.) were questions that I personally wanted answers to, because I'm a noob and I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing.

How does a FoS=a threat? I told him I would let him off of my FoS list if he provided a link to a previous game where that inside joke could be found. That isn't suspicious. I gave reasoning for my FoS. Why is my FoS more of a threat than anyone else's? Please, explain.

I wasn't OMGUSing, I was putting pressure on. I wanted to see how he would respond. That's why. Now that I don't think he was a brave wolf pulling off some sort of gambit, I really like his play.

You are absolutely correct. Being a noob is no excuse. I'm trying my best to help the town in any way that I can. And you mean to tell me that finding out how many Werewolves there are isn't good for the town? I was steping up, taking initiative, learning how to play.

I don't want to have to FoS anyone. Honestly, I just kind of wanted that link to take suspicion off of him. I didn't think that he was very suspicious, but I wanted to confirm or deny that little bit of suspicion.

Well, looking back, it did look like OMGUSing. It was 1:30 in the morning, and I was really tired. I wasn't thinking straight, and I guess I worded it wrong. I'm not going to deny that it did looked like I was, but I wasn't.

I'll admit, everyone has valid points against me. I would bring up the same points if I were in their shoes. I have no excuse for being such a noob when the game started, or posting when I wasn't thinking straight. No more posts after 11 PM for me!

These two posts that Vablakes made caught my eye, unlike any newb I’ve ever seen, he was posting very coherent thoughts, and using terminology with very good accuracy. It wasn’t enough to convict him, but it was an interesting note. I questioned it.

Something that bugs me. For a n00b you seem to be using Werewolf terminology quite profficiently...which would imply you either did research or are familiar with the game, neither of which suggest being a "newb."

He responded:

I read cabd's guide to gambits and roles and stuff over on SixPrizes before I joined and it had a list of commonly used terms. I wanted to at least know about a few things when I started, so I read it.

Fair enough, he has an excuse, I have nothing to accuse him of. Then he posted this:

That is untrue. I was trying to make him slip up. I suspected him to be a wolf. When he responded, it wasn't in any way scummy and I realized that it was a mistake. I then thought about it, and came to the conclusion that if he is town then that is an excellent play. Like I said in an earlier post, it was 1:30 AM when I posted that, so I missworded a whole lot of stuff. What I posted and what I was thinking turned out very differently.

What I was thinking:
FoSing me for pointing out what I thought to be a dumb play is scummy. Don't just respond with an FoS, tell me why it wasn't a bad play. You might be a wolf.

And besides, what I was thinking wasn't very logical because I was tired. I think that anyone and everyone might be a wolves. I was simply trying to put a bit of pressure on him, nothing more. Contradicting myself wasn't a misplay of any kind, I changed my mind when I saw his reply. I then read into why he would make that play, and then realized it was good. Sorry if it looked scummy, even I admit that it does. But it was just a miswording and a change of mind.

Look at the bold. Each one of those is a submissive response to a criticism. He points out all of his own misplays, says sorry for them, then tries to sweep them under the rug. It stood out how submissive and not defensive he was being considering the circumstances. It still wasn’t enough for me to vote him, not yet. Except he continued to do it:

Yeah, I made a mistake. I'm paying for it. I accept that. I own up to it. Yes, I missworded something. Yes, it looked suspicious. Next time, I will wait until morning. I have no excuse.

And then he posts this:

I'm making a play here. I just want it to go on record so that everyone believes me when I reveal that play.

Waiting for his next post which I assume will be the reveal we get:

Well, if I reveal later on, no one will believe me. I want my play to go on record so that when I do reveal people will believe me.

He is clearly buying time, and it looks really scummy. I decide that he’s been way too submissive about this who situation, and I don’t like how he says he is going to reveal and doesn’t. I vote:

Unvote: Human Destroyer

Vablakes is looking fishy, the 3rd or 4th time he said he "had no excuse for xxx" it started to look less like a person making bad plays with a person trying to cover up his misplays. He didn't get defensive, he got submissive, admitting to everyone that they were right and he was playing bad. It strikes me as trying to play to their ego almost. Even when he defeneded himself he wrote with a very submissive tone.

I also don't like how he posted "i'm going to reveal guys." without the reveal. That implies he needs to buy time before me posts it. I don't like it, not at all.

Vote: Vablakes

Convice me otherwise and I'll unvote you.

I wasn’t conviced just yet….not until he posted this:

All right, I was using the "Bad Townie Gambit". It reads:

This gambit is best pulled off by a Vanilla Townie. In the first day of the game, act scummy in an intentional act to draw a small wagon. Without a doubt you'll have one or two over-eager wolves hop on your wagon near the middle. Naturally, it is best you reveal your ploy soon after, lest you actually get lynched.

Suddenly he is trying to cast all of his scummy moves as a “ploy” as part of a “gambit.” For some reason the above response took almost and hour for him to post after posting this:

I'm making a play here. I just want it to go on record so that everyone believes me when I reveal that play.

The simplicity of that “reveal” makes it clear he could have done that much earlier. That fact that it took and hour for him to post that makes me strongly think he was searching for an excuse.

He DOES acknowledge this issue:

@everyone suspicious of the gap between the time I said I was making a play and the time I revealed it: I was going to try to salvage the gambit and continue with it. Then I saw that all hope was lost and revealed.

@SMP88, I don't have a clue what you mean when you say that I "made a mistake that made me look scummy". The whole point of the gambit was to look scummy. I didn't reveal the gambit before saying I made a mistake because I was trying to continue the gambit, but realized that if I continued looking scummy no one would believe me about the gambit.

And I don’t believe it. If he was going to try and “salvage” the gambit, he would not have posted “I’m going to reveal.” There is no point he can salvage that at that time, and I don’t believe it at all.

He responds to SMP88 with this:

My replies in bold. Thank you for being a player who posts well thought out posts that bring up valid points, even if those valid points are against me. :lol::thumb:

This goes back to what I said before. Submissive, playing to the ego of those against him.

Then we have this post where he goes and manages to find dirt on every player he lists:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2362967&postcount=351

A common tactic of scum in danger is to try and point the finger elsewhere. He proceeds to do this again:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2362978&postcount=356
and again:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363008&postcount=359

Then Vablakes gets REALLY REALLY quiet. It’s not until post 418, fifty-nine posts later he speaks again:

Ok guys, I'm tired and I don't want to make any mistakes when I post, so I'm gonna wait until tomorrow to post. Tomorrow, I plan on looking into the whole pokemonrocks777/Your_Face thing, the Vegitalian thing, and post a more detailed post about why I am suspicious of people, and why some of them I have changed my mind about, like Scorri. I will also look into Vegitalian's defended/claimed post. But for now, goodnight all, off to get some sleep so I can post a well thought out post in the morning.

Activity post, nothing useful

And he finds a reason to not post it:

Hey guys, that post that I wanted will have to wait. My day was rough and I have a migrane now, I will write that post as soon as it goes away.

So, looking at his posts, Vablakes is already on shaky ground for questionable motives, massive misplays, and weak recoveries. What really draws this together is the vegitalian, Vablakes connection. As I have just revealed, I believe both to be wolves, and I believe there is proof a connection as well.

This is from the list that vegitalian posted, the one that started this whole situation:

I'd like to post the following information, which should help us when we start uncovering roles. The following are players that have defended each other or claimed that someone is town. Specifically, if someone is revealed to be a wolf, it should provide us with some likely targets down the line. One strange thing I've noticed is that Pokemonplayer101 and Vablakes have been strongly supporting one another - part of the same wolf pack, or just friends?

Look at the Red and Blue parts. Strange how before even posting this list, he is saying that wolves defend wolves, and that there might be a connection between Vablakes and PokemonPlayer101. At the time of posting this list, Vablakes had seven votes for him and was coming under heavy fire. Within the posting of that list, vegitalian listed five people for defending Vablakes, much more than most other people. There is then the argument of him trying to say I “defended” Vablakes, but I have already addressed that. The point is, vegitalian connected two people to Vablakes very quickly. This is where I bring up this point again.

the way I see it is:
a) if you're a wolf, you're definitely going to contest my post if you tried to defend a fellow wolf
b) if you're a townie, you either backed a wolf without good reason, or you have nothing to worry about

I want to go back to this post. If vegitalian is a wolf, than I would STRONGLY suggest we target Vablakes next. If vegitalian flips wolf that it would not be a stretch that he assumed Vablakes was going down was banking on Vablakes flipping wolf so he could go after me next using that as a basis.

Since you pretty much endorsed what I just said there....

I firmly believe that vegitalian thought Vablakes was going down that day and knew that he would flip wolf. Thus he created that list and made connections to other players so that WHEN Vablakes flipped wolf, he would have a reason to go after townspeople. It makes just too much sense given the evidence.

--------------------------------
Finally we have Kayle I actually already accused Kayle of being a wolf, I just didn’t vote him or make it clear I was accusing him of being scummy. Re-read this, but with the knowledge that I am accusing him of being scummy now.

THIS IS A REPOST OF POST 487: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363634&postcount=487

Firstly, all three of your votes are against relatively "easy targets" - by which I mean, they were doing things that other people had already found or were already finding suspicious

I don't pick my targets on how "easy" they are. I pick them as I see scumtells. Are you saying I should have no voted for any of those people because it is "too easy?" They were exhibiting scumtells, so I went after them. Are you saying that because I voted for people for the same reasons as other people, (in this case 2-4 people max) that I am bandwagoning?

To be fair, though, you and ProHawk said the same thing, and ProHawk said it first, but I was suspicious of ProHawk too. He responded in a way that cleared my suspicion. You have not; you have only expanded my suspicion of you in the rest of your actions today.

How did he respond?

What I was really getting at is that you've picked easy targets so far, and your only major contribution was your Human_Destroyer vote, which I find a little unsettling as H_D made a post that, in his mind, may (assuming he's town-aligned) have been a very valuable post for the newer players in our latest game.

Wait, what? You've changed subjects. This started as me going after "easy targets," but now because I went after HD after HD made a post that would be helpfulto new players? You imply that the nature and context of his post is irrelavent, but rather implying that because of the content of his post, I was wrong to vote him.

Regardless, discussion was started by this vote and wagon, which is exactly what we want to do as townies. So your Human_Destroyer vote, taken alone, isn't suspicious.

Just to throw out there, the vote/wangon for Vablakes and vegitalian started disscussion, but you didn't point that out.

Vablakes is where it begins to get a little fishy. I like how boldly you present a one-sentence post that consists of "You're using terminology well therefore I don't think you're a newb" (I'm paraphrasing, yes, you expressed less certainty than that) as your evidence of "But I was already suspicious of Vablakes!" I don't think I have to explain in detail why #309 is an interesting observation but hardly a scumtell. The idea that he is new but tried to read up on terminology so he knows what's going on is much too reasonable.

Your actual vote for Vablakes was - paraphasing again here - essentially on the grounds of "He's admitting to his mistakes too easily and that looks scummy to me." Sure, this is a new point of view that no one else has taken on Vablakes... but I think that's just because it's not really a valid argument against him. He's a new player (by his account but also by the account of others in the game by now), he screwed up, and he makes the good townie move: rather than getting super defensive and drawing further attention to himself, he owns up to his mistake and tries to play better instead. He fails at first, but, we're reading his actions, not his success, and though some actions might have spelled scum to me, "I'm sorry I misspoke" certainly wasn't one of those things.

How about you don't paraphrase my words, and quote them instead.

Unvote: Human Destroyer

Vablakes is looking fishy, the 3rd or 4th time he said he "had no excuse for xxx" it started to look less like a person making bad plays with a person trying to cover up his misplays. He didn't get defensive, he got submissive, admitting to everyone that they were right and he was playing bad. It strikes me as trying to play to their ego almost. Even when he defeneded himself he wrote with a very submissive tone.

I also don't like how he posted "i'm going to reveal guys." without the reveal. That implies he needs to buy time before me posts it. I don't like it, not at all.

Vote: Vablakes

Convice me otherwise and I'll unvote you.

He's a new player (by his account but also by the account of others in the game by now), he screwed up, and he makes the good townie move: rather than getting super defensive and drawing further attention to himself, he owns up to his mistake and tries to play better instead. He fails at first, but, we're reading his actions, not his success, and though some actions might have spelled scum to me, "I'm sorry I misspoke" certainly wasn't one of those things.

First off, i want to be clear on something, I could care less if a player is new or not, I don't afford them any handicaps. If they are playing scummy, then I call them out. Stop trying to use "he's new" as an excuse. That vet vs newb crap won't fly with me. You are paraphrasing my words and trying to use my current situation to make all the people I voted for seem like victims. Second, you just flat out said that it's ok for him to play terribly and create scenarios that read scumtell because he's new and he owned up to his mistakes....and what, I should not have voted for him for acting scummy? You yourself just called his actions scummy. I didn't vote for him because he "mispoke." Read my post, DO NOT twist my words, DO NOT take what I say out of context. That is why I told you not to paraphrase, to quote me. I voted for him for continued misplays, evasivness in defending any of his actions and submissivness in accepting everything his critics were grinding him for. That is combined with the fact that he said "I'm going to reveal guys, but not yet." That's the kind of panic mode you go into when you are really worried about something. He had barely any voted at all when he did that, so yeah, I thought he was bing scummy.

Let's say jpulice isn't scum: do I still find your vegitalian vote suspicious? A little. He's another very easy target. Another player(s) already pointed out that he's been playing a little weird. He's also another self-proclaimed new player - is H_D new??? - and has been making some simple errors that didn't add up to any really firm scumtell, just enough to earn suspicion. You started a major campaign against him, yeah, but a campaign that consisted of bullying, riling-up, and arguing that I've already made very clear I found distasteful at best.

You find my vegitalian vote suspisious? Because another player had already pointed it out? Because he's new? Because he has made no scumtells?

So you don't find vegitalian suspisious. Is that what I am reading? Did you ignore all the evidence I placed on him. Did you ignore how he responded to me? Clearly you did. You seem very intent to go after me for HOW I conversed with him, rather than what was said. So let's see, by your own words I msade my case "consisting of bullying, riling-up, and arguing "

Should I not have argued? How do you play this game without arguing? Bullying? By all accounts he was encouraging it, calling e a wolf, ignoring my points, OMGUSing (indirectly) people who targeting him...(these are all things you have yet to address). I was simply tearing his arguments to shreds, I hardly call it bullying. Riling-up? You are right, next time I'll calmly ask him if he is a wolf and when he says no, I'll thank him for his time and leave.

On that note, I'm really interested in how YOU responded to this whole vegitalian situation.
Not long after I made my initial posts against him you posted:

yay I'm not crazy for thinking vegitalian is suspicious. Gotta stop putting off homework and stuff now, but I thought I'd do this much at least.

got my eyes on you jpulice. Unvote: jpulice ;; Vote: vegitalian

Let's see where this takes us!

Wait a darn second....that contradicts what you JUST posted:

Let's say jpulice isn't scum: do I still find your vegitalian vote suspicious? A little. He's another very easy target. Another player(s) already pointed out that he's been playing a little weird. He's also another self-proclaimed new player - is H_D new??? - and has been making some simple errors that didn't add up to any really firm scumtell, just enough to earn suspicion. You started a major campaign against him, yeah, but a campaign that consisted of bullying, riling-up, and arguing that I've already made very clear I found distasteful at best.

However you quickly shift gears, do a complete 180 and post this:

This is ridiculous. At this rate you two are going to create some absurd number of full pages of uselessness that will destroy any attempt at useful conversation. We have four to five full days of discussion left before we need to come to a decision, and you are going to prevent that discussion from taking place.

AT, you are a smug little troll-child on a playground. Cut it out, I'd have expected better from you. Vegitalian, quit while you might still have some semblance of hope left.

Unvote: Vegitalian

Now what's going on here. I thought you found Vegitalian suspicious? Why are you unvoting him? He's in no danger of a vote that ends the day early? Why do you want him to stop talking, that's seem counter productive to this whole "information" thing. I also am curious, do you think the ENTIRE conversation I had with Vegitalian is useless, including all the scumtells he made, and all the points I made to prove he was a wolf? Absured number of pages? Hyperboli much? We argued for like 2-3 pages....hardly cluttering anything. And wait, did you just say that I was destroying any attempt at useful conversation? When did I go out of my way to STOP people from talking about anything else other than Vegitalian? Never that's when, as stated before, the lack of conversation on OTHER topics has nothing to do with me and Vegitalian arguing. What do you find to be useful conversation exactly? For me, grinding scum is useful, but you disagree.

Next we have this, I cut up this post to deal with it more effectively:

At this point I'm not even seeing you as scum, AT. I'm seeing you as dangerous and immature. Cut it out.

Wait, that’s not what you just said right here:

Assuming jpulice IS scum, which I already know is a bad assumption to make, but ASSUMING that, Absoltrainer reads strong scum to me, and otherwise reads low-medium scum. My reasoning is here. The post itself isn't important -but scroll up. Immediately before this otherwise very abrupt subject change, jpulice was doing his acting-weird-and-trying-to-come-off-as-aggressive-townie thing. IF jpulice is scum and IF he was pressuring me because he felt threatened by me, then Absoltrainer might have tried to change the subject forcefully to defend a valuable ally, then gone on a massive two-page tirade against Vegitalian in order to try to drive the discussion out of our minds. This is an argument based on assumption, so I can't act on it, but it's one that I can't help but find very interesting. If it had just been the sudden "I'm going to vote Vegitalian" and then nothing else, I might not have been so intrigued. It's that, in combination with last night's argument, that has me worried.

If jpulice is not scum, I still read moderate scum on Absoltrainer just because so far as I've been able to see his votes have all been "I'm late on the bandwagon guys!" except Vegitalian, and I had mentioned twice already that I found him suspicious (I don't think I'm the only one). Further, AT's posts are all combatative and are either directly responding to other members in a primarily defensive way, or trying to rile them up in a more hostile aggressive way. He posted a fairly well-intentioned post that, taken alone, isn't fishy, but Vablakes is such an easy target and there were already FOUR other votes on him in that page. Similar logic followed for AT's vote on Human_Destroyer; it was one of the first major scumhunting posts we had, but think about where the discussion has taken us from there and how disorienting it must have been for the people H_D might have intended to help (if he was town).

All in all AT's play is easy for me to place as strong wolf play, but harder for me to imagine as strong town play. I don't like anything about that.

Now this would imply that between these two posts, I did something that made you change your mind, but ALL of your evidence is from events PRIOR to the first post where you said you weren’t seeing me as scum, which implies conflicted feeling when you made that post. Even more interesting is this link with jpulic. If jpulice is a scum, I’m a wolf, if he isn’t a scum, I’m still a wolf. What’s the connection between me and jpulice? It appears your ONLY connection is that jpulice made a post you found scummy and then instead of attacking jpulice (for a post I did not find scummy) I went after Vegitalian who I found scummy. Other than that baseless argument, you offer no reason for my connection to jpulice

I love this part especially:

Similar logic followed for AT's vote on Human_Destroyer; it was one of the first major scumhunting posts we had, but think about where the discussion has taken us from there and how disorienting it must have been for the people H_D might have intended to help (if he was town).

If my post was one of the first major “scumhunting posts” we had, then doesn’t that contradict what you said when you called it a “bandwagon post?” My favorite part is where you say that I was disorienting people HD wanted to help. Haha, so what you are saying is that BECAUSE HD’s post could help new players (regardless if he is town [you even say “if he is town]), I should not go after him because it would confuse the people he is trying to help? What?

We learned a lot about Vegitalian from his responses to pressure. We stopped learning things around the time he said he didn't care, and you embarked on this battle of utter fluff that has taught me only that you don't seem to have any regard for collateral damage, or the need of momentum to maintain active scumhunting. I'd be surprised if you really didn't understand this, so I hold out hope that there was some obscure purpose to your banter.

What collateral damage? I don’t have the momentum or need to maintain active scumhunting? Isn’t that what I was doing when Iwas grilling Vegitalian for information? Battle of fluff? I’ve learned a LOT about Vegitalian. I have also learned a lot about those around him. Maybe you stopped reading after he said “I don’t care,” but I started reading even more intently AFTER he said that. He more or less incriminated himself, and kept talking, that’s about as awesome of a situation as you can get. You bet your ratatta I’m going to press the advantage.

You did do something wrong: you continued to defend yourself when there was nothing worth defending against. As a townie, you do not fear his offense (...right? Didn't you make that point against him earlier? scumpoints++?) I'd be amazed if you actually felt a need to respond for the sake of your livelihood in the game. I can appreciate that you were enjoying yourself, but at some point, it needed to end.

I have nothing to fear from wolves, I stated this many times. Wait…are you trying to say that BECAUSE I defending myself against him, that it makes me look scummy? What? What needs to end? Our conversation? Consiering that you un-voted Vegitalian, it would imply that the conversation is NOT over because you DON’T think Vegitalian is a wolf for some reason. You don’t even bother to defend Vegitalian, rather get upset at me for “being too mean to him.”

He should stop this pointless debate, bide his time, and respond once he's had a chance to collect his thoughts. That is exactly what he is doing.

Actually if he’s scummy we should keep pressing him and see what he says…letting him bide his time, and plan his moves is the opposite of what we want. Speaking of which,

Vegitalian, I am sure you are reading this, I have not forgotten what you said. You said you were going to counter my points today, I expect to see it:

I will counter your points tomorrow, when I have more energy.

Oh, we agree on what would be useful, it's just that you are characterizing a conversation as "finding and accusing a suspicious person of being a wolf" when it's actually a game-within-a-game for you. You feel so comfortable and confident in your logic that you don't feel any need to hold back or reserve yourself. Well, so do the rest of us. You don't need to hammer it in any further. We get it. We'd like to talk about something else and make use of the rest of the game day.

If “we get it,” then why did you un-vote Vegitalian, and then later say you found my vote strange:

Let's say jpulice isn't scum: do I still find your vegitalian vote suspicious? A little.

It was useless because nothing new and helpful was being said. I thought that was obvious.

Clearly then, you stopped reading the posts, because there has been a LOT of new and useful information since then. I learned a lot, if you did not, that is your loss

I can't wait for you to try to go back and justify individual portions of your posts with him that were relevant. Maybe you will really have a point, but more likely, you'll just decide I am your new playmate. But I've better things to do. Like hunt NEW scum.

I don’t post for the sake of posting. Also wait…hunt new scum? You don’t even think vegitalian is old scum, you unvoted him, you called my vote for him strange, and now you are saying you don’t find him scummy!

Firstly, to Eclipse. I'm less suspicious of Vegitalian now. He seems like a victim of poor early gameplay. He was really goaded into a lot of negative or subpar responses by AT, so I don't want to read too strongly into their exchange yet. (Also it's painful to read, as you noted.)

Curious how you found space to throw in a quip about me in there. Wait a second….

He was really goaded into a lot of negative or subpar responses by AT, so I don't want to read too strongly into their exchange yet

Are you making assumption and conclusion based on a conversation you just admitted to NOT HAVING STRONGLY READ YET?

Major QFT. This is exactly why I feel AT's huge firestorm with Vegitalian was a waste of our time.

Hunting scum is NOT a waste of time.

2. Vote: Absoltrainer. Because I'm hesitant to vote, but it's becoming clear that that is a fault and not a strength.

3. I don't want to commit to believing in Vegitalian's innocence. I am voting and pressuring with the intent of gathering information, not making a lynch. Give it another day or two and I'll start thinking about serious lynch targets. If it pleases you, this basically amounts to: I don't HAVE a case for his innocence, I'm just interested in AT's play now that I've seen more of it and want to examine that rather than beat a probably-not-dead-but-unconscious horse.

You don't have a case for his innocence….well if you can’t find one, doesn’t that imply that I am right, and he is a wolf? You want to pressure vote me? I guarantee you; one vote for me does not scare me in the least.

4. When I refer to a pressure/vote target being "easy", I mean that that player is making scummy plays that are so obvious that virtually everyone sees them. The town goes after these people naturally, making it "easy" to target them. That doesn't necessarily make them bad options, but it's important to remember that bad play does not make someone a wolf immediately, which is a trap I think towns fall into too easily D1 and D2. A "hard" target would then be one that you find by examining interactions and 'reading between the lines' as it were. AT is the closest thing I have personally to a hard target right now.

This completely contradicts what you said before. This with you earlier information stands to say that you are saying that BECAUSE I voted for people who are quote “making scummy plays that are so obvious that virtually everyone sees them” that this somehow makes me bandwagony and scummy. By your definition, all three of my votes were “hard-targets” (see this post:http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363594&postcount=480 ) , I made my case by examining interactions and reading between the lines. Then you go on to call me a hard target. What have I done that’s scummy? Nothing, you’re only case against me is that I’m being a meanie.

I don't really see the game in terms of "easy" people vs "hard" people.

Then do NOT use it as an argument against me.
------------------END OF REPOST

To add to above, I find it strange how quickly Kayle jumped on me and led a campaign against me for nothing more then me being a bully. I find it odd that Vegitalian disconnected himself so much with Kayle after Kayle voted for him. I find it strange how Kayle 180’d on Vegitalian. Read the posts again. Look at how Kayle and Vegitalian interact with each other. I also want to re-reference THIS post:

This is ridiculous. At this rate you two are going to create some absurd number of full pages of uselessness that will destroy any attempt at useful conversation. We have four to five full days of discussion left before we need to come to a decision, and you are going to prevent that discussion from taking place.

AT, you are a smug little troll-child on a playground. Cut it out, I'd have expected better from you. Vegitalian, quit while you might still have some semblance of hope left.

Unvote: Vegitalian

I see several interesting things. If we assume the wolves CAN’T communicate during this first day (not until night), then this could be seen as coaching. Second this sudden unvote for Vegitalian with no explanation other than “absol is a bully”


-----------------------CONCLUSION--------------
There you have it folks. What I was doing, how it was all a part of my plan. How the entire case against me is basless and unfounded, and how three people Vegitalian, Vablakes, and Kalye all have heavy cases against them for being wolves. What I believe we should do then, given this information:

Lynch: Vegitalian today. If he flips town, then we can re-evalute Vablakes and Kayle, however I am extremely convinced he will flip wolf which will strengthen the ties between Vablakes and Kayle.

Any questions?

 

[scorri]

scorri would like to once again point out that what Crimsonsky did is quite common on Serenes Forest (SF) where Crimsonsky plays as well. scorri would like to ask if people have ever heard of a role called Paranoid Gun Owner (also known as PGO). PGO kill whoever targets them. Thus, it is common practice on SF to out a role such as a PGO so that townies don't run themselves into the PGO and thus kill themselves.

scorri would also like to point out that on SF people tend to keep their town reads and null reads to themselves to prevent giving the scum playerslots that they can copy so that they can appear town as well as possibly keep townie players alive longer. While scorri is aware that this is not SF, scorri, Eclipse, Crimsonsky, Shinori, Tables, and Luster Purge (scorri thinks that is all) all play on SF and as such will all tend to do things like this and also tend to find similar things scummy/townie. scorri is not yet sure if Crimsonsky is town or scum, but scorri does think that there are better targets today.

scorri clearly is ok with a H_D lynch as she currently has her vote there, but between A_T, vegi, and jp, scorri believes she would prefer an A_T lynch because she feels like he was being overagressive and trying to make vegi appear scummy, but she would need to reread before she as sure about that.

 

[Absoltrainer]

requested bump sdfsdfsdfsdf

 

[scorri]

... scorri should learn to check to see if she has been ninja'd before she posts. scorri read that giant post by A_T and now scorri is leaning more towards a vegi lynch because A_T made a rather convincing argument. scorri needs to reread.

(also scorri would like to say thank you to A_T for the bump)

 

[Sheepbro]

@Sheebro, if you think I need to defend myself than ask me some questions. I find your last post very odd in deed. Please explain what I or PM needs to defend and why we are scummy.

I was posting on phone and couldn't be bothered to scroll back. I don't have time at the moment, but PM I've asked things before and you... I don't remember. Guess I shouldn't post right before I go to bed, sorry about that.
Still though, I also said you two have to generally post more, which you're doing, so good job on that.

I think veg is loosing steam so you unvoted him, and cast suspicions to people who have taken some heat. Yet you don't have any more thoughts on the subject.

I like the way vegitalian kept his cool and didn't rage out, so UNVOTE:Vegitalian.

Also why didn't you vote either one of us for pressure.

Neither really deserves a vote for now though, so I'm going to sit on it until I get a real scumread on someone
that's significantly better than others. The read, not the player, before someone asks.

For such a condescending player you really have to read better bro.

I find this entire post scummy. I'll go back and re-read you, since I don't recall any real input from you.

lolk

 

[desufnoc]

Wow that was a huge post A_T. It must of taken a long time to tear through all of those posts. After being able to amazingly read all of that post ( and understand it ) I believe vegi to be the best lynch target today.

Vote:Vegitalian

 

[eclipse]

First, the off-topic stuff.

1. Thanks for the ISO methodology, Sandslash7! It's something I use at the other forum, and I miss it!
2. 38 pages in Word, AbsolTrainer? I use Notepad to compose all my posts.

Back on-topic.

I think I found out what's bothering me. I'll outline it in the summary.

Summary:

- Human Destroyer's logic regarding the motivation behind the vegitalian/AbsolTrainer debacle mystifies me.
- I explain why I talk a lot.
- That thing that was bothering me was Prohawk's tone.
- JewelQuest and I have different views of "playing well".
- I don't parse vegitalian's logic very well.
- I explain what role implication means.
- Due to a major shift in logic within three bullet points, I do not object to a jpulice lynch.
- I express my displeasure of StrongRhino's vote on AbsolTrainer.
- Parse error on Benzo's post.
- Go read AbsolTrainer's wall of text yourself.

SOOO. . .I will support the following lynches.

- PMysterious, for basically posting nothing of interest all throughout the game
- jpulice for that huge logical u-turn in his list post
- vegitalian due to his snippiness outside of the main argument (this hasn't changed since the last time)
- Vablakes because he hasn't done much of anything to convince me that he's not a good lynch target (especially once the wagon died down on him)

---

"(Original) I don't like this kind of speculation. It feels like a subtle attempt to paint both of them as scum, without directly stating it. If you think they're bussing each other, then say so directly."

(Sorry I can't quote this, I'm on my phone)

Anyway, eclipse, I do think at least one of them is scum. I still think they were either a) covering for JP (at least one), b) bussing (both), or c) neither (having an argument that, at least I felt, made no strong town sense)

I'm pretty sure I said that I feel one of them is scum and that I believe a and/or b is the case. I thought I made it pretty clear that, ESPECIALLY if JP is scum, one or both of vegetalian and Absoltrainer are scum.

I can't see any logical reason why anyone, regardless of alignment, would do option a. Option b is not what I get from that spat, so that leaves option c. I am not a fan of associative reads, but I get the feeling I'm in the minority regarding this.

Oh it's not that I'm afraid, it's mostly that I hate useless posts. I've talked with more experienced players about reads I had on an ongoing game and they noted that my reads got significantly better as the game went on, so that's why I'm holding off a bit for now. I'll see if I can find something interesting later today/tonight.
I've actually got something at the moment but I'm going to hold off for now and see if the player's behaviour persists.


Cheers for making you posts a whole lot more readable!

No problem! The issue with holding on to your reads is that your reads are lost with you if you end up dead the next day. That is why I do my best to get all of my thoughts out - if I die, I can do so with no regrets.

I wouldn't expect you to understand or agree with my reasoning as you are the one making the claim/gambit.

Original. Stuff like this bothers me on an emotional level. Crimsonsky knows what he's doing (hooray outside meta), and the assumption that he can't understand where you're coming from is, to put it bluntly, extremely condescending. I've had enough negativity in this game.

vegitalion plays well, but is a lot more likely to slip up than Absol(Well, perhaps except for the 'not afraid of the wolves' thing), just from having(I believe) less experience.

Original. I disagree with your stance on vegitalian. I don't think he is playing well, because he's a candidate for today's lynch.

Responses (Let me know if I've missed your question/post and I will respond):

Human Destroyer:
"Why did you post a list of town reads and defenses, but not scumreads and attacks?"
Just the sheer amount of work swayed me away from doing that. I think it's relevant information - as are other statistics (i.e. who has placed the first vote, and who has bandwagoned). If someone has the time to do it, I think it would help the town greatly.

ProHawk:
A) You wanted to show everyone that you were putting in work to the game. Scum-Motivation
Yes - I wanted to do something that would contribute to the discussion, because earlier I was being told that I hadn't contributed.
B) You found a connection that you wanted to point out. Town-Motivation
C) You wanted a central location to keep your thoughts. Town-Motivation
D) You wanted to set the stage for a future attack/case. Scum-Motivation
Is this really Scum-Motivation? As townies, we need to use all the information at our disposal to make a case. If we don't, we will lynch ourselves.
E) You wanted to give the wolves a chance to make additional WIFOM. Scum-Motivation
I understand where you're coming from here. I'm not entirely sure posting the list was a good idea at this point - saving it for later would've probably had a better effect. Were I a wolf, I probably would've used that strategy instead of revealing it.

Thunderjolt:
"We cannot pound new guys into the ground, but is vegitalian new?"
Yes I am. This is my first time playing online. The only other time, I was at a camp (around 12 years old). Look through past Werewolves, and if you find me there, you will have a good reason to accuse me of being scum. Also, look at my join date - I've been around a while.

SS7, here are my reads:

Kayle - Has done a lot of jumping around in votes; pressuring everyone, including myself. This has gotten some good intel on those players. In my mind, Kayle is a definite townie.
SS7 - I haven't seen anything scummy in SS7's posts. There are two problems with this: I'm not an expert at identifying scum, and he's a seasoned player (from what I've seen). His hints have been helpful, but he might be fooling us. Leans town.
AbsolTrainer - Has said some really suspicious stuff. Why would he act this arrogant in the first day? Isn't afraid of wolves? I doubt he's stupid enough to say this without being either priest or wolf. Leans scum.
Prohawk - Seems to be seeing only one side of the argument. I'm not sure if you have a history with A/T, but so far you've been clinging to people without considering both sides of an argument. First Kayle, and now A/T. This means you're either a townie that wants allies, a politician, or a wolf trying to get in with the townies. Other than that, I don't really have much on you. Null.
Vablakes - A new player, making awful mistakes like myself. Null.
Diaz - Didn't get ultra-defensive about my vote, and has posted some valid points. Also a good player, so could be either side, but I see him as leaning town.
DragonClyne - Seems fairly reasonable in his posts, and although his pointy finger has been shooting at a bunch of different people, he's not overeager to place votes without more information. Leans town.

I'd like to see some of the inactive players throw posts out there.

I'm going to go through and read up on some other players - most of my time here has been spent defending myself, so I've been mostly engaged in my own discussions.

Two things:

1. According to your logic, I have never played werewolf before, because you will not see me in any past games on this site. In truth, I've played forum mafia for nearly two years, and am still going strong.
2. Self-meta is not a good indicator of your alignment.

I strongly disagree with a player's skill determining alignment; theoretically speaking, the entire role list is randomized.

And what exactly do you mean by that, eclipse?

Original (and someone else asked this, I think, but I'm not sure). This next part is theory, and has nothing to do with reads and all that, so skip it if you don't feel like a lesson in role PMs. Certain roles imply others; for example, a miller strongly implies the presense of a town alliance cop, strongmen (kills that pierce protection) strongly imply things like priests, and ninjas strongly imply trackers/watchers on the other end of the spectrum. Certain other roles also give information in their role PMs; for example, numbers roles tell the player that there's X number of whatever in a game; dreamers learn about certain game aspects as their night role. I am not sure why there is any assumption of a third party, because my role PM neither confirms nor denies the existence of one.

@Sheebro, if you think I need to defend myself than ask me some questions. I find your last post very odd in deed. Please explain what I or PM needs to defend and why we are scummy. I think veg is loosing steam so you unvoted him, and cast suspicions to people who have taken some heat. Yet you don't have any more thoughts on the subject. Also why didn't you vote either one of us for pressure. I find this entire post scummy. I'll go back and re-read you, since I don't recall any real input from you.

@Eclipe. I see your thoughts on PM. I'm dont find his request for a policy lynch scummy. I find it null. The fact he pushed this stance shows me a few things about PM in this game. He's not going to be pushed around, and he's really learning from his past games.

@PM you go from a PL to a vote on AT. Why? I find the vote just lazy. If anything I will have to agree with Eclipse and give you a -1 for this.

Original. Tunneling on something the host said to disregard and generally not contributing to everything else that has been going on is grounds for a lynch in my books. It would be like insisting that whoever is in the 24th player slot MUST be a wolf and MUST be lynched, while disregarding the actual content of the game. In the commentary between Sheepbro and PMysterious, he asks the former to explain why PMysterious is scummy, then comments on something that doesn't make PMysterious look good? Given that massive reversal, I won't object to a jpluice lynch, either.

So you are cementing your vote with 3 days left H-D to either me or AT? I find this odd.

I will ask you here, how many games have your played? ...since you might have missed it in my previous post.

Can we stop with the condescending posts?

I feel like Human Destroyer should be added to that list. Learning he supposedly played one town game, and knows enough to make that huge posts to help beginners (or look like he is helping beginners). Still think AT is the ideal choice even if just for the "I'm not afraid of wolves" thing. Need to re-read vegitilan though, almost defenently me being new, but I see little wrong with it.
Vote: Absoltrainer

And I feel that you're voting AbsolTrainer over a null tell.

SS7 is taking the whole "PM role says blah blah blah" said by Eclipse as he sees this intentional/unintentional possible mistake/slip up as eclipse being a townie because to even me when I read that sentence, I get the hint that Eclipse is possible townie due to that possible slip up/ mistake whether intentional or unintentional from Eclipse's part/behalf. (I have yet to determin if Eclipse did this on purpose or not, I will comment on this later but I am trying to stay on track on this little issue)

38 pages of AbsolTrainer, read this yourself.

I'm gonna post my thoughts on this here, as attempting to quote specific things in that monster post is tiring!

- I saw quite a few people who didn't seem fond with the way your pressuring of vegitalian came across. Not all of them will be blunt, either (scorri, for example, and yes, I'm using what I know about her).
- I will save this quote: "Contradictions are scummy, especially when they occur in the same post."
- In your case against vegitalian, your best point, IMO, is the blue one, especially given the context. I disagree with the mindset of "I posted this, and I expect scum to do this"; I've seen enough games to know that PEOPLE act in unexpected ways (included but not limited to intentional modkills, claiming with very few votes, and self-voting out of frustration).
- Do the Kayle/vegitalian interactions read like bussing to you?

 

[vegitalian]

ProHawk, I will respond to your questions later tonight.

I would like to point out that AbsolTrainer is making it next to impossible for me to defend my points, by scattering his points and adding a lot of fluff. He also didn't address my latest response, and has been going back to re-analyze my old posts.

Quality > Quantity

Give me some clear, concise points I can defend, not 38 pages of nothing! It would be a good strategy to corner a townie by overloading him with text. This is what you've been doing all along, and it's obvious with your experience and your claims in your last post that you're doing it on purpose.

Unvote: Pokemonfreak5
Vote: AbsolTrainer
(FoS: Pokemonfreak5)

Eclipse, you said:
- I will save this quote: "Contradictions are scummy, especially when they occur in the same post."

I agree.

 

[DarthPika]

Good god.... I've never seen so many giant walls of text. Sometimes, less is more?

Doubt full I'll be able to catch up much at this point. However, I do feel that Vablakes has cleared him self for now, and that there are better lynching options.

Unvote: Vablakes

 

[jellyfisher]

ProHawk, I will respond to your questions later tonight.

I would like to point out that AbsolTrainer is making it next to impossible for me to defend my points, by scattering his points and adding a lot of fluff. He also didn't address my latest response, and has been going back to re-analyze my old posts.

Quality > Quantity

Give me some clear, concise points I can defend, not 38 pages of nothing! It would be a good strategy to corner a townie by overloading him with text. This is what you've been doing all along, and it's obvious with your experience and your claims in your last post that you're doing it on purpose.

Unvote: Pokemonfreak5
Vote: AbsolTrainer
(FoS: Pokemonfreak5)

This post just confirmed my vote for you. First off, if AT's post is filled with so much fluff, then why don't you point some of it out for us? Why are you just claiming that such a large post is for the most part made up of fluff without showing us even one example?

Look at bolded portion of vegitalian's post. Does anyone else realize how hypocritical that statement is? Seriously, he is accusing AT of doing something that he himself has done multiple times this game.

@vegitalian: If you want proof of this, then please, tell me. I will be happy to provide it.

Also, you claim that there are no points in AT's post that you can defend yourself against. This is untrue.

vegitalian
-Ignores other players accusations of him
-Ignores when players find faults or contradictions of him
-Ignores anyone who disagrees with him
-Jumps down on people who disagree with him
-Flip-flops between how important his list is to finding wolves, and saying it’s just his perception, no reason to get in a fuss about it.
-Not quoting or citing posts, instead paraphrasing them, or taking them out of context to suite his needs
-Role-fishing

While these accusations do not link directly to the posts AT is referring to, (To use your logic, he doesn't have to do that if he doesn't want to.) you still are able to confirm, or deny that you have done any of those things. So why don't you? Do you really think that it is more productive to sit back and basically say that since his post is only "fluff" you don't have to even acknowledge any accusations that are in it?

 

[Diaz]

What? How can you defend the person being attacked if you are attacking them as scum yourself? This would be counter-productive. How does this make any sense? Saying "I believe Reason X to be illogical and unfounded" is not a defense of a person.

Maybe you misunderstand. I'm saying that I could/would defend a person from some (bad/illogical) attacks while attacking them for better reasons. You can defend someone on some issue while attacking them on others. See below for an example.

So, lets provide an example here. I attack SS7 for being a fence-sitter. Lets say you think SS7 is scum (hypothetical) because he [insert whatever scum-tell you believe to be logical here] but feel that my accusation that SS7 is a fence-sitter is illogical. Show me how you would defend SS7 while pushing your own logic that he is scum.

I could say something along the lines of: "I don't think SS7is fence sitting because even though he hasn't voted, he's made some good points for and against other players. I do, however, think he has been [insert scum tell attack here], and so he is the correct lynch today." See what I did there?

So you feel that the point about setting the stage for a future attack is town-motivated only, scum-motivated only, or both? Tell me how having a post as "backup-evidence" would provide any more credit than keeping your notes to yourself until you have a solid point to make.

I think both town and scum could be motivated to strengthen an attack. This seems like common sense.

And you are calling me dense? You are saying that AT doesn't understand his own intentions? :nonono:

Oh, and nice try on the ad-hom attack with the whole reading comprehension/illogical thing. All bolded lines are particularly important that you respond to.

This goes for all of you that believe Absol did defend Vablakes and later voted him ----> He specifically stated it was not a defense therefore you are directly stating that he is lying. While I can only speculate as to what the real meaning of his post was, he knows exactly what it was.

I don't think AT's intentions are the issue. Whether or not he defended someone is a factual statement that doesn't hinge on his intentions. Whether or not he meant to, he defended another player. He shouldn't be so worked up when someone makes note of it.



@SS7: In an earlier post I asked if you a question. It wasn't a throwaway or rhetorical question. I want you to answer. The question was something like this: It seems clear from simply reading the post that AT did in fact defend Vablakes. He and Prohawk are now denying that he did so. Do you think that their reading comprehension is poor enough to allow for this, or do you think they are being intentionally dumb? (Or is there something else that you think is going on?)



@AT
In the beginning of your long post, you seem to be saying that you played intentionally poorly to get players to come after you. Digging your own grave. But when people do go after you, it seems like you're of the mindset "Aha! Now I've got you! You fell for my trap!". What I see is players going after someone who is playing poorly/potentially scummy. Isn't that what they are supposed to be doing? Just because you encouraged players to come after you, and they did, doesn't make them scum. Why should you being able to bait criticism be used as evidense against people who took the bait? (This is an honest question, please explain.)
Another question: In the event that Vegitalian flips town, how should we proceed? Do you think that considering lynching you would be a valid response to that situation?