What's the big deal with Stunfisk DRE?

[Hunter2hitman]

Good to know. If you wouldn't mind, I have a question or two. Do you run Mew EX? And are you a P-Comm or Ultra Ball kind of guy? I'm trying to understand what kind of build a one-of Stunfisk helps in. Thanks!

Yes i run 1 mew ex. Taking up 1 card of deck space is well worth it for a mid-late game surprise drop-KO on a mewtwo. I will seldom drop it in a game without attacking mewtwos.
I find ultra ball just isnt worth discarding for. Diving draw is already filling up the discard pile, and resource management in the deck is fairly crutial. Heavy P comm and level ball lines have been working great for me.
After much testing, my energy line has settled at 5w-2f-3blend. With my pokemon lines at 4-2-4 for the penguin, 1 mew ex, 1 stunfisk, 2 terrakion and 3 emolga

How have you had success against the mirror? No one else plays empoleon in my area, and ive only run into it once on playtcg.

 

[LibertyFigter]

I've only played mirror in-tourney twice. I won both, but I think I just got T2 Empoleon first in the actual mirror, and the other was against Empoleon/Roserade. They just had more easy catcher prizes. I don't have much mirror experience. Do you think Stunfisk would help in mirror?

 

[Hunter2hitman]

I've only played mirror in-tourney twice. I won both, but I think I just got T2 Empoleon first in the actual mirror, and the other was against Empoleon/Roserade. They just had more easy catcher prizes. I don't have much mirror experience. Do you think Stunfisk would help in mirror?

I dont think stunfisk would be of much help, maybe only to soften piplup or terrakion for an ohko later on. If i started with it, i would use it. But he is dead once their emopleon is running. Could stick a terrakion in active but this deck runs switch, so that would backfire quick.
My one mirror match i went second with piplup active and terrakion in my hand (in case i drew a p comm) with no draw support. So i decided to go aggro terrakion and it work great.

 

[LibertyFigter]

I dont think stunfisk would be of much help, maybe only to soften piplup or terrakion for an ohko later on. If i started with it, i would use it. But he is dead once their emopleon is running. Could stick a terrakion in active but this deck runs switch, so that would backfire quick.
My one mirror match i went second with piplup active and terrakion in my hand (in case i drew a p comm) with no draw support. So i decided to go aggro terrakion and it work great.

Yeah, that's kinda what I figured about Stunfisk. Kinda like Mew EX: drop it in the matchups you need it, try and hold onto it for P-Comm other times. I run Ultra Ball personally, so it's a bit different for me. I don't have enough experience with mirror to play it confidently yet, and I'm not sure I'll ever get it. Not enough people run the penguins!

Well, I remain unconvinced of Stunfisk as of yet... mostly because my list is so ridiculously tight already. I might try it out after my next BRs (finally giving Mew EX a try I think) as to not change too much from tourney to tourney! Thanks for the input everyone- if anyone is dead set on Stunfisk being unbelievable in Empoleon builds, I still wanna know. Anything we've missed in this thread so far?

 

[cabd]

I've played stunfisk in my empoleon for three battle roads so far.

It's won me 3 games; one per BR.

Against eels, that early game turn one pressure is AMAZING.

But it's not good in decks running less than 3 switch, IMO.

 

[Ignatious]

Emolga has huge issues, if you don't start with it, they are all wasted deck spaces. You'd probably need a lot more switch and e switch than normal to really benefit as well. These slots may as well just be search options or basics that provide great utility throughout a game. I've tested emolga a lotand the card seems awful in everything.

 

[deashira]

Emolga has huge issues, if you don't start with it, they are all wasted deck spaces. You'd probably need a lot more switch and e switch than normal to really benefit as well. These slots may as well just be search options or basics that provide great utility throughout a game. I've tested emolga a lotand the card seems awful in everything.

I think you're overlooking its usefulness it situations other than first turn. Now, it's not great in every deck but here are some situations where I find it helpful:

1. Donking Swablus: Stunfisk can donk Tynamo but Emolga can donk Swablu. However, this requires Lightning energy.

2. Promotion: Whenever my active gets KO'd and I have Emolga on the bench I promote it. With free retreat cost it allows you to play out your hand before deciding which pokemon you're going to attack with. This can be invaluable if you need to draw "the right card" to return a KO.

3. Decoy: Sometimes you're not ready to go on the offense this turn but you don't want to take damage on one of your core pokemon. Emolga is almost always the pokemon you prefer to lose. Using it as a decoy forces your opponent to use up valuable resources (Pokemon Catcher) if they want to attack a real threat.

RM

 

[Otaku]

I think you're overlooking its usefulness it situations other than first turn. Now, it's not great in every deck but here are some situations where I find it helpful...

I agree with some of your points, but I do wish to elaborate and/or offer counterpoints.

1. Donking Swablus: Stunfisk can donk Tynamo but Emolga can donk Swablu. However, this requires Lightning energy.

Emphasis added to cover my main concern; having the Energy to pull it off. If I an burning a Blend Energy WLFM (which my deck would have to, I don't know about what the more experienced players are running), it really needs to be for the win.

Otherwise, it is still handy handy but could backfire; I don't want to whiff on an important Retaliate later (for example) because I ran short of Blend Energy WLFM. This is less of a concern for other builds, and even I have to acknowledge "...but it was for a Prize, and now that is one more Swablu that must be recycled and played before it can Evolve."

So let us contrast that to taking out an early Tynamo with Stunfisk. You can't do better than a first turn win with either, but in a more sustained match, taking out a first-turn Tynamo hurts more than taking out a first turn Swablu; with the former you're impeding Energy acceleration for a deck Empoleon is Weak to, with the latter just lowering max damage cap for a Type neutral deck.

This is mostly "Theorymon" so definitely correct me where I am wrong (for example if Garchomp/Altaria is a critical match-up).

2. Promotion: Whenever my active gets KO'd and I have Emolga on the bench I promote it. With free retreat cost it allows you to play out your hand before deciding which pokemon you're going to attack with. This can be invaluable if you need to draw "the right card" to return a KO.

This also allows Switch to remove effects of attacks, and all of what deashira said plus that can prove very, very valuable.

3. Decoy: Sometimes you're not ready to go on the offense this turn but you don't want to take damage on one of your core pokemon. Emolga is almost always the pokemon you prefer to lose. Using it as a decoy forces your opponent to use up valuable resources (Pokemon Catcher) if they want to attack a real threat.

The 90 HP is an important concern, since it is (for example) a bad thing against Darkrai EX, where you just set-up them to get a Prize while hitting something important for 30. Of course, I may be over (or under) analyzing things again: Darkrai EX isn't going to OHKO an Empoleon or "follow-up KO" one that has just 30 damage on it without help.

I guess I am just concerned about an "easy Prize". I've lost matches (in more than just my Empoleon builds) because my opponent has made good use of that Emolga on my Bench. As a long time player, I have to remember that cards with similar uses (that is with respect to the free Retreat) also existed in formats where they were hard to OHKO: Jungle Scyther had 70 HP in a format where that was hard to OHKO, and the Neo-era Baby Pokémon had the Baby Rule protecting them while Active (and an effective OHKO on the Bench required complicated combos).

 

[RichD]

I agree with some of your points, but I do wish to elaborate and/or offer counterpoints.



Emphasis added to cover my main concern; having the Energy to pull it off. If I an burning a Blend Energy WLFM (which my deck would have to, I don't know about what the more experienced players are running), it really needs to be for the win.

Otherwise, it is still handy handy but could backfire; I don't want to whiff on an important Retaliate later (for example) because I ran short of Blend Energy WLFM. This is less of a concern for other builds, and even I have to acknowledge "...but it was for a Prize, and now that is one more Swablu that must be recycled and played before it can Evolve."

So let us contrast that to taking out an early Tynamo with Stunfisk. You can't do better than a first turn win with either, but in a more sustained match, taking out a first-turn Tynamo hurts more than taking out a first turn Swablu; with the former you're impeding Energy acceleration for a deck Empoleon is Weak to, with the latter just lowering max damage cap for a Type neutral deck.

This is mostly "Theorymon" so definitely correct me where I am wrong (for example if Garchomp/Altaria is a critical match-up).

A Garchomp with two Altarias on the bench can OHKO an Empoleon with the Dragonblade attack. Once Garchomp can OHKO while the Empoleon can only 2HKO Garchomp in return, the game is pretty much over. So a turn one Swablu donk with Emolga to delay that possibility comes in handy and I don't mind burning a Blend energy for that.

 

[Otaku]

Important to know, though I do question how good OHKOs are against Empoleon (Stage 2 Pokémon using one Energy) when in order maintain that Empoleon should have an ample supply of Altaria to OHKO. Does it come down to running out of Pokémon Catcher? I am not saying I am right, merely bringing up where I don't follow; if I have made an erroneous assumption, please tell me! Mach Cut won't OHKO Empoleon unless backed by four Alteria, so we are also dealing with Garchomp getting the two Energy it needs for its second attack; again, that may be no problem but with these two decks, that extra Energy attachment could be important.

That being said, given the rest of the topic involving Stunfisk, I would also like to know; is that more or less valuable than taking out an early game Tynamo?

 

[deashira]

Emphasis added to cover my main concern; having the Energy to pull it off. If I an burning a Blend Energy WLFM (which my deck would have to, I don't know about what the more experienced players are running), it really needs to be for the win.

Otherwise, it is still handy handy but could backfire; I don't want to whiff on an important Retaliate later (for example) because I ran short of Blend Energy WLFM. This is less of a concern for other builds, and even I have to acknowledge "...but it was for a Prize, and now that is one more Swablu that must be recycled and played before it can Evolve."

So let us contrast that to taking out an early Tynamo with Stunfisk. You can't do better than a first turn win with either, but in a more sustained match, taking out a first-turn Tynamo hurts more than taking out a first turn Swablu; with the former you're impeding Energy acceleration for a deck Empoleon is Weak to, with the latter just lowering max damage cap for a Type neutral deck.

This is mostly "Theorymon" so definitely correct me where I am wrong (for example if Garchomp/Altaria is a critical match-up).

I'll be candid; I forgot we were talking about Empoleon decks in particular. I was thinking more generally. With that in mind, I think Stunfisk is better for your Eels matchup but isn't that why many players pair Empoleon with Terrakion? Sure, it improves your bad matchup a bit, but doesn't it also weaken other matchups?

In any case, you probably shouldn't listen to me. I like to play Empoleon/Accelgor (or Bouffalant)/Lapras. Oh, and Lapras donks Swablu AND Tynamo. Go Lapras!

RM

 

[Hunter2hitman]

I think you're overlooking its usefulness it situations other than first turn. Now, it's not great in every deck but here are some situations where I find it helpful:

1. Donking Swablus: Stunfisk can donk Tynamo but Emolga can donk Swablu. However, this requires Lightning energy.

2. Promotion: Whenever my active gets KO'd and I have Emolga on the bench I promote it. With free retreat cost it allows you to play out your hand before deciding which pokemon you're going to attack with. This can be invaluable if you need to draw "the right card" to return a KO.

3. Decoy: Sometimes you're not ready to go on the offense this turn but you don't want to take damage on one of your core pokemon. Emolga is almost always the pokemon you prefer to lose. Using it as a decoy forces your opponent to use up valuable resources (Pokemon Catcher) if they want to attack a real threat.

RM

These are all great points. Number one for me is promotion after your active gets KOed. Its seriously crutial to put in a free retreater and have a chance at grabbing that one card.
Also, im finding great use for emolga late game by discarding it for diving draw, which can conserve other valuable resources

 

[Otaku]

Also, im finding great use for emolga late game by discarding it for diving draw, which can conserve other valuable resources

The following may sound snarky, but I do not mean it to be; once again I don't know if I fully understand.

Since I know of no card that cannot be used as a discard for diving draw, I wouldn't call that a "great" use. Having a "painless" piece of discard fodder can be handy when you just don't have time to think, but most of us would rather have to choose what good card we were losing than have something that, by the point in question, has its best use as discard fodder.

"Great" discard fodder is a card with a useful effect that triggers when it is discarded (no Pokémon TCG equivalent springs to mind) or that triggers while the card is in the discard pile (Ho-Oh EX). Has much been done with Empoleon/Ho-Oh EX?

 

[Nintendan]

I've played stunfisk in my empoleon for three battle roads so far.

It's won me 3 games; one per BR.

Against eels, that early game turn one pressure is AMAZING.

But it's not good in decks running less than 3 switch, IMO.

How many Stunfisk do you run? I can't seem to get mine out with the Catcher and Energy in hand to put that pressure on...

 

[deashira]

The following may sound snarky, but I do not mean it to be; once again I don't know if I fully understand.

Since I know of no card that cannot be used as a discard for diving draw, I wouldn't call that a "great" use. Having a "painless" piece of discard fodder can be handy when you just don't have time to think, but most of us would rather have to choose what good card we were losing than have something that, by the point in question, has its best use as discard fodder.

I agree with your statement but I think you're looking at the issue from the wrong angle. If you include any card in your deck that's only (or mostly) useful on your first turn then that can hurt the consistency of your deck. A great start can easily turn into a loss if you draw into dead cards. However, Diving Draw and other cards that require discards (Junk Arm, Ultra Ball) help to balance this drawback.

RM

 

[LibertyFigter]

About Emolga, I really do think that it is far from a dead card if you don't start with it. I run three, and I start with it sporadically. Emolga starts are fantastic, and become more frequent with my (somewhat low) 5 search cards and 3 switch. However, often times in the late game Empoleon just needs to find that one last basic to drop to clinch the victory. While other search cards can do the search job Emolga does (without the energy/attack but for one less Pokemon) those search cards can't be stuck into the deck with Super Rod and then drawn into. When you take out an Emolga for a level ball, or 3 Emolga for 3 level ball (or other search), you could be losing additional damage mid-late game. That being said, Emolga is a costly inclusion... but necessary for my playstyle and build.

This thread is showing me a bit more of Stunfisk's value, although I think its appeal is just for someone who has a different play style than my own. I crave consistency, and just feel terrible piloting a deck that isn't made to set up every time. Because Emolga helps that goal so much, I choose to run it over Stunfisk. However, a player who favors early pressure would absolutely choose to stick in one or two Stunfisks for both donking potential and an early 20/20. The disruption late game is interesting too.

On the topic of Empoleon matchups: in my experience Eels is an easier matchup than Garchomp, but that probably speaks more to my specific build than to the deck itself. I have Static Shocked 3 Swablus in my tournament run so far. None were donks, and none were game-breaking. Although, all were fun : ).

Keep it comin'!