What's Wrong with this Format?

[K2theAblaM]

Obviously I am comparing a quarter in football to a match in Pokemon, and a game in football to a tournament in Pokemon.

If you compare a game in football to a game in Pokemon, you're implying that a football season is akin to a Pokemon tournament. In reality, a football season is akin to a Pokemon season, which makes a football game analogous to a Pokemon tournament.

Good try though.

No, because a quarter in football doesn't account for a w/l in your standings, the entire game does. If the entire game is decided by a single field goal, then there would be universal outrage.

Akin to pokemon, an entire match DOES account for a w/l in your standings, and they can, in fact, be determined by a single donk before you even draw your first card.

Do you not see the correlation?

LOL @ "good try though" Child please...

 

[psychup2034]

No, because a quarter in football doesn't account for a w/l in your standings, the entire game does. If the entire game is decided by a single field goal, then there would be universal outrage.

Akin to pokemon, an entire match DOES account for a w/l in your standings, and they can, in fact, be determined by a single donk before you even draw your first card.

Do you not see the correlation?

LOL @ "good try though" Child please...

You're really making this too easy for me...

A game in Pokemon doesn't account for a championship point in your standings, results from the entire tournament do. If the entire tournament is decided by a single donk, then there would be universal outrage.

Akin to Pokemon, an entire match DOES NOT account for a championship point in your standings. In fact, you cannot lose out on a tournament by a single donk before you even draw your first card.

Do you not see the correlation?

 

[ShadowGuard]

Well, HGSS-on isn't actually the best format. But it's not about the metagame. Considering we only have cards coming from 4,5 Japanese sets in modified, there are a lot of competitive decks to choose from. There were a lot of formats with only 2-3 viable decks (except for some rogues).

Also, it's not about Donphan and Yanmega. They're powerful cards, but they don't break the format. Actually, most of the best decks don't even play them. And as much as I dislike that card, Donphan is important for the format to keep Zekrom back.

Next one is Pokémon Catcher. That card is broken, no question. It makes many decks unplayable. But looking on the rest of the format, I fear we need the card right now. No more flips on Reversal. How many of you missed top cut at Worlds because of Reversal flips? Guess there are quite some. And if you look at future cards like Mewtwo ex with Gardevoir - that deck would be almost invincible without Catcher.

Now to the lack of skill. That's indeed a problem. But again, it's not about the metagame. Stage 1s, Gothitelle, Megazone, and even Tyran are all more skillful decks than some we had in the past years, like Jumpluff, Kingdra or Machamp. Some special rules and cards cause this issue now, not the decks we play.

Then we have overpowered basics. I absolutely don't like them, but as we see, there are enough other decks that still can compete them. Right now, it's ok, but we'll see how it works when Evolite and all the ex Pokémon are released.

The only real problem is the opening rule. It not only makes the coinflip a lot too important, it also makes donks even more common than in SP and speed deck days. It's obvious that something has to be done about this, but that's not up to TPCi. The old rule with the new Rare Candy nerf would be perfect, and I really hope that they change it soon. But well, there wasn't any perfect format sind DX-on, and as long as it doesn't destroy the game completely, I'll still play.

None of those instances are tournament ending. In fact, the tournament CONTINUES and the player that got donked has THE REST OF THE TOURNAMENT to get themselves back in and win.

No, he hasn't. Depending on the number of players in an age groups, there are tournaments where you can't get in because not all X-1 make the cut and if you lose first round you've the lowest tiebreaker. If you are in a 31-player-tournament and get donked R1, the tournament is over for you without you even got a chance to play. (And this season, you can't even play for rating after that.) It's rare to happen, but there's no way to deny this. And yes, this is one of the major flaws in the current format.

 

[K2theAblaM]

You're really making this too easy for me...

A game in Pokemon doesn't account for a championship point in your standings, results from the entire tournament do. If the entire tournament is decided by a single donk, then there would be universal outrage.

But this happens though. It happens all the time.

 

[psychup2034]

Depending on the number of players in an age groups, there are tournaments where you can't get in because not all X-1 make the cut and if you lose first round you've the lowest tiebreaker. If you are in a 31-player-tournament and get donked R1, the tournament is over for you without you even got a chance to play. (And this season, you can't even play for rating after that.) It's rare to happen, but there's no way to deny this. And yes, this is one of the major flaws in the current format.

Agreed, especially since I've been the victim of losing a tiebreaker because of a game 1 T1 donk. When it happened to me though, I took the approach of "Oh well, crap happens. I consistently top cut at events I attend anyway. This T1 donk is more of an anomaly than the norm."

I also agree that this is a major flaw. I think the problem is that top cuts in battle roads are not commensurate with the number of players in the tournament (only T4 get to go to top cut). My personal solution would be to expand top cut to however many rounds are needed under normal circumstances.

"A game in Pokemon doesn't account for a championship point in your standings, results from the entire tournament do. If the entire tournament is decided by a single donk, then there would be universal outrage."

But this happens though. It happens all the time.

Yes, it happens all the time, but it happens to any individual player very infrequently. If you find yourself getting donked all the time, then you're a statistical anomaly, not the norm. The players who consistently perform well at tournaments all suffer from donks here and there, but they still do well. You can't win them all, and in some of those games you don't win, you probably lost because of bad luck. Tough.

This format is already much less donk oriented than last format, especially with Cleffa use (and thus Tyrogue use) going down. You practically have to build a deck designed to donk in order to achieve one nowadays, and decks designed to donk (without a mid-game or late-game) won't win many tournaments at all.

 

[Otaku]

Just so you know, sports =/= Pokemon TCG, either in game, match, or tournament structure. Well, someone can probably find a few examples, but both sides have given valid points... because it was a bad analogy! A single basketball game, barring some intense game ending DQ, will go to the end of the time limit unless one side concedes (or they have a "mercy" rule). Single basket ball game is a major event. A single Pokemon game can end quite quickly or go to time, while a single Pokemon tournament is a one day event on par with single basket ball game, while a basketball tournament is a rare, rare thing indeed! Well, rare for the season, anyway.

 

[desert eagle]

It's the same complaints over and over. I haven't touched this game in over 3 years, and come back to the same stuff from 3 years prior, and it's just funny to me.

This format is the same as any other format in existence. There are a handful of elite decks, a handful of mediocre decks, and terrible cards that should really never see play.

There are also different kinds of players:
1. People who want to win, are willing to pay for good cards, and play nothing but elite decks. Personally, I couldn't care less about creativity and playing a "fun" deck, I play the deck that gives me the odds-on best chance to win, because winning is fun and losing isn't regardless of what I play. Not everyone is like this, and I respect your opinion if you're not, everyones mileage may vary when it comes to this game.

2. People who lack the skill to win consistently, even through they are willing to pay for elite decks. These people play top tier decks, but their builds on those decks are questionable. These people are fairly inexperienced when compared to the above type, but they have the most room for improvement and most become either consistent winners, or occasional winners.

3. People who accept mediocrity in exchange for "fun and creativity". These are the people who are willing to take 4-3 or 3-2 finishes playing a mediocre, or even terrible, but creative deck, rather than play an elite deck and top cut.

4. People who have no idea what they're doing, aren't trying to be competitive players, and just show up for fun. These people are the ones who play the decks where you don't even know what half the cards in their deck does.

To continue the football analogy someone was trying to make, imagine every QB in the NFL is cloned and for some people think playing someone like Michael Vick at QB is "creative and fun".

Well category 1 teams all play Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, and win consistently.
Category 2 teams all play Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, but win 9-11 games a season due to poor execution.
Category 3 teams play Michael Vick, win 10 games a year, and are fine with it as they are having fun with a unique offense.
Category 4 teams play Tavaris Jackson at QB and go 2-14.

This pretty much describes almost every format in this game, so stop complaining about Donphan and Yanmega, you can pretty much replace those 2 with any 2 cards in a past format and come up with the same complaint.

 

[djjoe227]

If what you described means that the game is over and the team that made the first strike wins... then you bet there'd be UNIVERSAL outrage, on all fronts.

You've clearly been deprived of Dodgeball as a child.

I'm sorry to hear that. Let me explain how that game works.

You have 2 teams, and a bunch of rubber balls. Each team throws these balls back and forth, hoping to hit a player, and if they are hit that player is out of the game. The last player standing wins along with their respective team.

Now in this game, you could be a player, and as soon as the whistle is blown, your opponent(s) throw the balls and you get hit. Hard. In fact you might not have seen that ball, you just feel pain. Or maybe you don't, because you're an athlete that can take a hit. Either way, you're out. No more playing, no more throwing, no more anything- you sit on the side and watch as everyone else finishes.

Dodgeball runs in a similar fashion to a Pokemon Tournament. You could be out, unfairly, within the first few moments of the game, forced to watch everyone else finish.


And yet, Dodgeball has not been changed for years.

 

[K2theAblaM]

You've clearly been deprived of Dodgeball as a child.

I'm sorry to hear that. Let me explain how that game works.

You have 2 teams, and a bunch of rubber balls. Each team throws these balls back and forth, hoping to hit a player, and if they are hit that player is out of the game. The last player standing wins along with their respective team.

Now in this game, you could be a player, and as soon as the whistle is blown, your opponent(s) throw the balls and you get hit. Hard. In fact you might not have seen that ball, you just feel pain. Or maybe you don't, because you're an athlete that can take a hit. Either way, you're out. No more playing, no more throwing, no more anything- you sit on the side and watch as everyone else finishes.

Dodgeball runs in a similar fashion to a Pokemon Tournament. You could be out, unfairly, within the first few moments of the game, forced to watch everyone else finish.


And yet, Dodgeball has not been changed for years.

Dodgeball? DODGEBALL!?!?!? :lol::lol::lol:

LOL, yeah... okay. Pokemon is like dodgeball. Great analogy. :thumb:

I guess I have been deprived... but please don't feel sorry for me. I'm sure I didn't miss much.







dodgeball.... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[vaporeon]

You can't compare Dodgeball to a Pokemon Tournament. You can compare it to a single Pokemon because dodgeball does not have competive tournaments. If it did, there would be rules in place to prevent random donks. Dodgeball also has a rule to if you catch the ball, the player who threw it is out and you get to get a good player back in the game. Pokemon does not have a rule like that. Once you get donked in the first round, its over. Your tournament is over. Unless there is like top 64 or something, you have to win every other game from there. Tiebreakers can do you in.

In Pokemon, if a donk happens in a fun game, where nothing is on the line, then so be it but in a tournament, a competitive environment that 'looks' for the best player at the tournament needs to have rules in place that prevent donks from happening. Every player deserves to have one turn.

 

[cabd]

You can't compare Dodgeball to a Pokemon Tournament. You can compare it to a single Pokemon because dodgeball does not have competive tournaments. If it did, there would be rules in place to prevent random donks. Dodgeball also has a rule to if you catch the ball, the player who threw it is out and you get to get a good player back in the game. Pokemon does not have a rule like that. Once you get donked in the first round, its over. Your tournament is over. Unless there is like top 64 or something, you have to win every other game from there. Tiebreakers can do you in.

In Pokemon, if a donk happens in a fun game, where nothing is on the line, then so be it but in a tournament, a competitive environment that 'looks' for the best player at the tournament needs to have rules in place that prevent donks from happening. Every player deserves to have one turn.

From http://www.dodgeballusa.com/events.php

Dodgeball Nation's $10,000 Tournament Saturday, September 24, 2011 Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Sorry, other points might be valid, but that one of yours doesn't hold up.

Anyways, even if we "let every player have a first turn" then the complaint will just be "but I didn't get a second turn I deserve a second turn for it to be fair" and so on and so forth.

 

[vaporeon]

Well I stand corrected. I did not even know. Looks like there are tournaments for everything.

 

[Otaku]

Edit: Awww... I can't even call it "ninja'd" because my long winded nature means I was beaten by 5 minutes. XD

You can't compare Dodgeball to a Pokemon Tournament. You can compare it to a single Pokemon because dodgeball does not have competive tournaments.

You sure about that? I am thinking the National Dodgeball League would disagree.

If it did, there would be rules in place to prevent random donks.

What equates a "donk" in dodgeball? I mean, if it is "I reach the ball first, throw it, and it tags you out..." no, not really. The only thing I can think of is...

Dodgeball also has a rule to if you catch the ball, the player who threw it is out and you get to get a good player back in the game.

Yeah, that. I like to think of that as being the equivalent of a good player having enough/having big enough/having a protected Pokemon in play. After all, good players will also ignore their defense (not give themselves a chance to catch a ball) in order to go on the aggressive. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Pokemon does not have a rule like that.

It has an analogous set of circumstances, or at least enough that one can argue it and thus stating it as a fact is overstepping.

Once you get donked in the first round, its over. Your tournament is over. Unless there is like top 64 or something, you have to win every other game from there. Tiebreakers can do you in.

Yeah, you still get to play. You just might not take first, but you still get to play. Additionally in some events you can still take first, and even if you can't... this might actually be a tournament procedure issue and not a game issue. Would donks be so bad if they weren't almost a guarantee you couldn't fight your way back to first? Anyway, being able to play at all is more is more lenient than (many versions) of dodgeball.

In Pokemon, if a donk happens in a fun game, where nothing is on the line, then so be it but in a tournament, a competitive environment that 'looks' for the best player at the tournament needs to have rules in place that prevent donks from happening. Every player deserves to have one turn.

I disagree. If I run one 30 HP Pokemon, do I deserve even to get a turn? You need to support your argument better. I know you believe there is no justification for a "donk" scenario, but others do not agree. I believe the "donk" was meant to discourage extremely low basic play, and/or to be a natural consequence for certain cards that might otherwise be too powerful: the classic example being the many Evolving Pokemon that start out with a smaller-than-average Basic Pokemon. That being said I will agree that poor card design and/or rules alterations mean that donks rarely happen for my purported "good" reasons.

K2theAblaM: As the morbidly obese American male who was at best chubby and most of the time obese-to-morbidly-obese in Elementary and High School who hated P.E. classes (and most forms of exercise)... dude dodgeball! It was fun! You really did miss out. Now I feel kinda sad for you. :frown:

I believe dodgeball is also the sport equivalent of classic NES Mega Man games. XD

 

[Poke Trainer J]

Next one is Pokémon Catcher. That card is broken, no question. It makes many decks unplayable. But looking on the rest of the format, I fear we need the card right now. No more flips on Reversal. How many of you missed top cut at Worlds because of Reversal flips? Guess there are quite some. And if you look at future cards like Mewtwo ex with Gardevoir - that deck would be almost invincible without Catcher.

As mentioned before the thing about Pokemon Catcher is that it's a double-edged sword, it favors decks that make them more playable while at the same time hurts decks that have the potential to be playable mainly with decks focused around bench tech's and they have still been proven to be viable in HGSS-On thus far. Take for example Ninetales in TyRam decks, still great for saving your Supporter for turn among other things while granted the bench tech's that get hurt alot from Catcher are Emboar (Ability) and possibly Magnezone yet it still see's play because it's an amazing draw engine and it synergizes with Yanmega so well.

If you play it against a Mew Aggro deck with Yanmega where everything in that deck has free retreat it's not really going to do you a whole lotta good. That's probably one of the very few decks in the format where Catcher is a dead card in hand the entire game. I've played against Mew Aggro before and it's stupid fast and unless you mirror with your Mew Prime you might have trouble catching up. ZPST however shouldn't have a problem against it though considering that half of the deck is weak to it with Yanmega and Zekrom can donk Mews with ease.

Now to the lack of skill. That's indeed a problem. But again, it's not about the metagame. Stage 1s, Gothitelle, Megazone, and even Tyran are all more skillful decks than some we had in the past years, like Jumpluff, Kingdra or Machamp. Some special rules and cards cause this issue now, not the decks we play.

The only real problem is the opening rule. It not only makes the coinflip a lot too important, it also makes donks even more common than in SP and speed deck days. It's obvious that something has to be done about this, but that's not up to TPCi. The old rule with the new Rare Candy nerf would be perfect, and I really hope that they change it soon. But well, there wasn't any perfect format sind DX-on, and as long as it doesn't destroy the game completely, I'll still play.

Yeah you're right, it's not the decks it's the speed in which to achieve those wins and those B/W T1 Rules well I guess we sorta took for granted. Bearing in mind it's not as bad as SableDonk last format where Overeager determined who would go first regardless of a coin flip but it's still pretty bad. Now I'm one of the few players who thinks that nerfing Rare Candy was a bad idea on TPCi's part, much like with Catcher it sort of is a double-edged sword on the fact that it can help achieve donks easier but also prevent them at the same time by delaying yourself a turn to play them.

No, he hasn't. Depending on the number of players in an age groups, there are tournaments where you can't get in because not all X-1 make the cut and if you lose first round you've the lowest tiebreaker. If you are in a 31-player-tournament and get donked R1, the tournament is over for you without you even got a chance to play. (And this season, you can't even play for rating after that.) It's rare to happen, but there's no way to deny this. And yes, this is one of the major flaws in the current format.

So let me get this straight, because of the new Ratings and Tournament Structure Pokemon USA put in place for this season you mean to tell me that If say I play in BR's or Cities and I lose the 1st Round does that mean that the tournament is over for me since I can't play my other 3-4 Rounds anymore since I didn't make topcut? They better not have gotten rid of Swiss in Tournaments cause that would be horrible. By getting rid of Swiss players won't be able to play more games in tournaments and earn points for winning and losing each round thus making tournaments REALLY short in perspective.

Swiss is still in every Sanctioned Pokemon TCG Event even for this season, for it to be Single Elimination that would hurt the fun of any tournament in general and would cause a huge amount of players to drop out or quit the TCG entirely. I did make a statement encouraging PUSA and TPCi to do "Best 2 out of 3 Swiss" but the complaints I'm getting are from Judges that just don't have the patience for players to play those games out in that tournament structure style especially when that is more work for them but then again that's apart of a Judge's job isn't it? I'm not trying to be rude here but like what Ness mentioned playing more games would encourage more skill for the TCG in general.

 

[vaporeon]

When I play Dodgeball, my team have 2 people that would rush up and knock balls back for the other player. Those people were our 30 HP basics. This worked for us most of the time because we had a system. If they made it past the 'donk' phase then the game got good. Not everyone on our team rushed up to grab balls. The thing is that we never started with those 2 people. Those people knew they had a high chance of getting donked, but they supported the team early game.

The problem with Pokemon is that you don't get the chance to defend yourself when your in a donk. The game just ends. In Dodgeball, you don't search for you key players because they are always there but in Pokemon, right now as it stands is we have another format dependent on opening hands.

 

[Politoed666]

The fact that there are 22 winning deck types among 6 and a half editions speaks wonders about how balanced the format is. Let's go over what each type has:

:fire: - Reshiram
:grass: - Nothing, unless you count Yanmega
:water: - Blatoise, Samurott
:fighting: - Donphan
:lightning: - Zekrom, Magnezone
sychic: - Mew, Gothitelle
:dark: - Zoark
:metal: - Nothing

6/8 types have a popular competitive headliner (most have multiple). That's amazing compared to our usual formats.

Samurott and Blastoise are trash.
Yanmega/Vileplume/Sunflora variants are quite good.

But yeah, the only thing really wrong with the format is the T1 rules.

 

[Ignatious]

The fact that there are 22 winning deck types among 6 and a half editions speaks wonders about how balanced the format is. Let's go over what each type has:

:fire: - Reshiram
:grass: - Nothing, unless you count Yanmega
:water: - Blatoise, Samurott
:fighting: - Donphan
:lightning: - Zekrom, Magnezone
sychic: - Mew, Gothitelle
:dark: - Zoark
:metal: - Nothing

6/8 types have a popular competitive headliner (most have multiple). That's amazing compared to our usual formats.

Why would you NOT count the single most splashed attacking line in the game?

 

[Dragonflames1994]

Lol, I remember when soooo many people were begging for HGSS On format. And now so many people hate it. XD

 

[rotomboyz]

is this format really messed up when you can choose, out of AT LEAST 10, decks to play and still win?

do you think last format was NOT messed up?

i am sorry but i like this format much better than last format EVEN IF I LOSE TO A CATCHER!

 

[djjoe227]

When I play Dodgeball, my team have 2 people that would rush up and knock balls back for the other player. Those people were our 30 HP basics.

No, these are your SF Sableyes. These are the guys there to make sure you go first.

This worked for us most of the time because we had a system. If they made it past the 'donk' phase then the game got good.

As was the game for every other Sablelock player. You get past the first turn with Sableye and Chatot G and you had a good game...for you.

Not everyone on our team rushed up to grab balls. The thing is that we never started with those 2 people. Those people knew they had a high chance of getting donked, but they supported the team early game.

Again, this is a Sablelock scenerio- in this sense, both players started with Sableye. Both players are aware sableye can be knocked out (1st Turn, Collector, Crobat G, Unown DARK, Special Dark) but this is what set-up the game for them. You didn't rush in to start with Crobat G or Chatot G, you had to wait and not let them rush or their powers are utterly useless.

The problem with Pokemon is that you don't get the chance to defend yourself when your in a donk. The game just ends. In Dodgeball, you don't search for you key players because they are always there but in Pokemon, right now as it stands is we have another format dependent on opening hands.

Contrary- you ALWAYS get the good players out at the right moment. You don't let the good players stick around, because they are good for that reason. You play Dodgeball by getting early hits, then taking out key players, then taking out Stragglers. The reason you don't go for Key players right away is because of the "Catch" rule mentioned earlier.

The Catch rule, by the way, works two ways- First, you can get the thrower Out. Secondly, and that's an "OR" by the way, you bring the player that has been out of the game the longest back in. Not always necessarily the "best" player, just the first ones knocked out in chronological order.