XYZ_Sniper
New Member
You obviously haven't playtested enough decks. This format is plenty fun and I haven't even attended a Battle Roads.
What's Wrong with this Format?
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You obviously haven't playtested enough decks. This format is plenty fun and I haven't even attended a Battle Roads.
StormFront
New Member
Anyone got a link showing that Japan is currently BW-ON? If thats the case I don't see too much harm in having CL-ON since there isn't much in the way to replace PONT, COPYCAT, PETM, Sage and Dual Ball. Jirachi would still be useful to have next rotation.
ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
Oh noez, there are Stage 2 Pokémon cards that can keep up with the imba basic and Stage 1 Pokémon even in a Catcher format. Seriously... I'd rather like more Stage 2s to be so good and playable in skillful decks, instead of having 130+ HP basics and Stage 1s doing 60+ for 0-1 energy all around.
Did you play in that format? Pidgeot was a lot stronger than Magnezone is now. Besides the fact that Clutch actually was a useful attack even without DCE, it could be played in any deck with the old Rare Candy rule and had free retreat, in addition there was no Catcher/Luxray/whatever in the format to stop it. The only common counters were Battle Frontier and 100 snipers. Battle Frontier could be kicked, and snipers needed some setup. It was not just like "oh Donphan Catcher PlusPower here goes your Magnezone".
Seriously, donks and cheap stuff like Catcher that depends on starting hands or initial coinflips are something you can complain about, but Magnezone and Emboar are cards you can deal with and tech against, as long as you have at least decent skills in the game.
As far as I remember there was only one stage 2 line that "did everything", and that was Gardevoir/Gallade/GardyLv.X. And well, I'd rather have that back than having tons of 180 HP basics showing up in the next months.
TheGeneral
Active Member
Otaku,
Here is what you could build with the three structure decks that is a part of the Tier 1 Agents:
3x Agent Earth
3x Agent Venus
1x Agent Jupiter
3x Mystical Shine Ball
3x Master Hyperion
1x Honest
3x Cards From the Sky
1x Torrential Tribute
1x Beckoning Light
1x Solemn Judgment
and if you wanted to go with a Sanctuary in the Sky build, it even included:
Sanctuary in the Sky
Valhalla, Hall of the Fallen
Divine Punishment
and recently, they reprinted Archlord Kristya AND Pot of Duality in the same tin...so for $20, you get one Kristya, one Duality, other good supers, an XYZ secret, AND 5 packs. Now they're reprinting Solemn Warning, Ehren, etc. which comes in a $20 tin. So yes, for around $100 you can have a Tier 1 Agent deck WITH Dualitys, Warnings, and Kristyas. That's even cheaper than building Yanmega/anything in Pokemon.
Haunter_FanBoy
New Member
I lol'd Pure agents doesn't really win stuff dude. and warning still is 50+. TGU is where ygo is currently at!
Monsters: 30
3 Tour Guide From the Underworld 150$+ a piece
3 The Agent of Creation – Venus cheap
3 The Agent of Mystery – Earth cheap
3 Mystical Shine Ball cheap
3 Master Hyperion cheap
3 Effect Veiler 15 dollars a piece
2 Tragoedia 15 dollars a piece
2 Genex Ally Birdman cheap
2 Archlord Kristya 10 dollars a piece
1 Honest cheap
1 The Agent of Miracles – Jupiter cheap
1 Chaos Sorcerer cheap
1 Sangan cheap
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness cheap
1 Black Luster Soldier – Envoy of the Beginning 20+ dollars
Spells: 9
3 Pot of Duality 10 dollar a piece
3 Mystical Space Typhoon cheap
1 Dark Hole cheap
1 Monster Reborn cheap
1 Heavy Storm cheap
Traps: 1
1 Trap Dustshoot cheap
Extra Deck: 15
1 Gachi Gachi Gantetsu cheap
1 Leviair the Sea Dragon 30$
1 Number 17: Leviathan Dragon cheap
1 Number 39: Utopia cheap
1 Armory Arm 20 dollar
1 Ally of Justice Catastor 20 dollar
1 Magical Android cheap
1 Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier 30 dollar
1 Black Rose Dragon cheap
1 Ancient Sacred Wyvern cheap
1 Stardust Dragon cheap
1 Scrap Dragon 40 dollar
1 Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier 50 dollar
1 Ally of Justice Decisive Armor cheap
1 Gaia Knight, the Force of Earth cheap
highest placing Agent deck at the latest YCS
Monsters: 30
3 Tour Guide From the Underworld 150$+ a piece
3 The Agent of Creation – Venus cheap
3 The Agent of Mystery – Earth cheap
3 Mystical Shine Ball cheap
3 Master Hyperion cheap
3 Effect Veiler 15 dollars a piece
2 Tragoedia 15 dollars a piece
2 Genex Ally Birdman cheap
2 Archlord Kristya 10 dollars a piece
1 Honest cheap
1 The Agent of Miracles – Jupiter cheap
1 Chaos Sorcerer cheap
1 Sangan cheap
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness cheap
1 Black Luster Soldier – Envoy of the Beginning 20+ dollars
Spells: 9
3 Pot of Duality 10 dollar a piece
3 Mystical Space Typhoon cheap
1 Dark Hole cheap
1 Monster Reborn cheap
1 Heavy Storm cheap
Traps: 1
1 Trap Dustshoot cheap
Extra Deck: 15
1 Gachi Gachi Gantetsu cheap
1 Leviair the Sea Dragon 30$
1 Number 17: Leviathan Dragon cheap
1 Number 39: Utopia cheap
1 Armory Arm 20 dollar
1 Ally of Justice Catastor 20 dollar
1 Magical Android cheap
1 Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier 30 dollar
1 Black Rose Dragon cheap
1 Ancient Sacred Wyvern cheap
1 Stardust Dragon cheap
1 Scrap Dragon 40 dollar
1 Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier 50 dollar
1 Ally of Justice Decisive Armor cheap
1 Gaia Knight, the Force of Earth cheap
highest placing Agent deck at the latest YCS
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Otaku
Active Member
Alright, but didn't you say $30 earlier? So the full build is around $100. Now is while Yanmega Prime is expensive, it a) wasn't always and b) is useful in multiple, powerful decks. The differences in how the games function makes an exact analogue hard, but is the entire deck as potent as most Yanmega decks we are discussing?
Again, legitimate questions: its the fastest way for me to learn.
I miss the good Stage 2s, I think it would bring even more back to the game. But that is not possible currently when we have basics that can hit for 120 turn 1 with more of those type of cards (Mew2, et al) poised just on the horizon.
I understand legendaries being super powerful and what not, but I don't remembering seeing Groudon Kyogre and the rest being able to hit that hard that quickly without some serious work, skill and AT LEAST a handful of turns.
Palkia lvX had 120 but it's damage topped out at 60 for 3 water energies.
Dialga lvX had 110 hp and it's damage topped out at 80 for 3 metal and you couldn't use that attack next turn.
Yet Zekrom and Reshiram have 130 hp and can potentially hit for 120 turn one?!?
Just my .02
Ring-of-Magma
New Member
The whole agents and yanmega comparison is a bit invalid imo, as investing in some yanmega's (say 3 for $100 or so) allows you to splash them in numerous decks, such as Stage 1's, megazone, mew lock etc.
Whereas agents are only their own deck, you can hardly use them in other decks (the major flaw of yugioh compared to pokemon, and why it can get very expensive if you want multiple decks).
Whereas agents are only their own deck, you can hardly use them in other decks (the major flaw of yugioh compared to pokemon, and why it can get very expensive if you want multiple decks).
Haunter_FanBoy
New Member
yanmega/magnezone is probably the most expensive deck out now.
the primes alone cost you over 150 and the you need all those staples etc. the other pricey deck is ross or goth, tropical beach is 100 and counting, the rest is basicly the same staples in any deck.
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the primes alone cost you over 150 and the you need all those staples etc. the other pricey deck is ross or goth, tropical beach is 100 and counting, the rest is basicly the same staples in any deck.
Posted with Mobile style...
nnaann
New Member
As long as there's at least one cheap option for a top tier deck, then I'm happy. There are always going to be decks which require a ridiculous amount of rare cards to build (anyone remember PUMA?), and it's natural that popular cards are going to be more expensive, but having decks which either use Tin Promo Primes or just holos mean it's not really much of a problem. Reshiram/Typhlosion is a great deck right now that doesn't need $30 primes.
The thing about this format is that if you did your playtesting and kept up-to-date on Japan's releases, you knew what cards to get back during or before Spring Battleroads.
A MegaZone deck could've cost what- $50 at most with Yanmega Prime at $4 and Magnezone Prime at $6? You already had Collectors and such from whatever deck you played in MD-on. And as long as you weren't going for 4 fullarts, Reshiplosion could've been built with a $20 bill.
The only people who are suffering are those who either Netdeck, are new to the game, or chose to wait until now to try playtesting.
A MegaZone deck could've cost what- $50 at most with Yanmega Prime at $4 and Magnezone Prime at $6? You already had Collectors and such from whatever deck you played in MD-on. And as long as you weren't going for 4 fullarts, Reshiplosion could've been built with a $20 bill.
The only people who are suffering are those who either Netdeck, are new to the game, or chose to wait until now to try playtesting.
What version of Magic the Gathering do you play?
The Standard format RARELY has 1/4th of the cardpool being playable. You have 3-4 decks that keep consistent lists (mind you, alot of them at that are variations of each other and share 30-40 cards between them), and 3-4 decks that do "well" with a few techs here and there.
Now if you're talking about every card from a set having a niche use, then you must also be including Modern, Extended, Legacy, Vintage, EDH, Pauper, Minimasters, Pack wars, Draft, Mental Magic, Sealed, Planechase, and Archenemy.
Prof Clay
New Member
For those of you complaining about the price of Yanmega's...where were you last year at this time when I was picking them up for $3-5 a piece because no one thought they were any good.
At the time, they were not...but some of us had the sense to look a format ahead and realize that Dialga G X was going to leave and make it a very desirable card. I could have had 20 or 30....people were giving them away for things I knew would be gone in 6 months
Its not like the card has been always been expensive...don't blame anyone but your NET-DECKing selves who can't figure what a good card is or isn't without being told so.
Oh wait....djjjoe beat me to the point...now I feel silly
At the time, they were not...but some of us had the sense to look a format ahead and realize that Dialga G X was going to leave and make it a very desirable card. I could have had 20 or 30....people were giving them away for things I knew would be gone in 6 months
Its not like the card has been always been expensive...don't blame anyone but your NET-DECKing selves who can't figure what a good card is or isn't without being told so.
Oh wait....djjjoe beat me to the point...now I feel silly
psychup2034
New Member
Why are we accusing people of netdecking again? Do you really need to stoop that low to make your point? It doesn't add anything to the argument. Netdecking doesn't make cards expensive, limited supply and demand do. Are you considering all of the players that are playing and winning Battle Roads with Ross.dec "netdeckers" as well? Have you yourself never gotten any ideas by reading articles, tournament reports, or decklists that others have posted? There's no need to be mean to your fellow 'gym members just because you disagree with them.
Gas is $4 a gallon in NYC right now. I guess I should've also had the foresight to horde gas when it was still $2 a gallon 15 years ago. How about a house? I guess I also should've had the foresight to buy a house 10 years ago when real estate prices nearly half of what they are now.
Suggesting that people "should've" picked up Yanmegas when they were unplayable is just as ridiculous of an argument. You really have to be living under a rock to not anticipate gas prices inflating over the past decade, but it's completely unreasonable to expect people to preempt the price increase by buying tons of fuel beforehand. Furthermore, some people don't have hundreds of dollars to invest away in cards that might be playable next format. You couldn't have known (without netdecking yourself over at the Japanese websites) how good Yanmega was going to be in this format. What you're saying about Yanmega now could have just as easily been said about Machamp (Prime), Gengar (Prime), or a variety of other cards that got hype.
People here are pointing out that cards can be expensive. There's actually nothing incorrect about that assertion because whether something is "expensive" or not is relative to an individual. It costs upward of $200 to build a good Megazone list from scratch (including the trainers). To me, I don't consider that expensive, but for some players still in high school/college, $200 is a lot of money. Those players are merely venting their frustration, and a legitimate frustration at that.
As to my opinion about the subject at hand:
Yes, hobbies can get expensive. In terms of price, Pokemon is generally cheaper than Yu-gi-oh, and is more comparable to Magic. One of the best features of the current format is that there are playable and competitive decks that can be obtained for a relatively low price. As pointed out already, a playset of the Pokemon in Reshiplosion can be obtained for a very reasonable price. There are also other decks that are inexpensive to build. As an example, Cinccinos are 2 for $1 right now.
There are always going to be people who complain about the prices of cards. I think the prices of cards in this format are as manageable and reasonable as they have been in 3 years.
It's not a disgreement issue- it's a preparation issue. I'm not accusing people of netdecking, but those who know the deck they would like to play have had a headstart over those who decided to build a deck based on battle road, Worlds, or National championships reports. Netdecking, in this sense, doesn't refer to those who copy and paste an immediate decklist, but rather those who rush to get a quick list built with minimal effort.
I think it'd be easier to answer each question (Of course I realize none of these questions were directed directly at me, but it's probably the easiest and clearest way of voicing my opinion on the matter):
Accusing people of netdecking? No. I'm not accusing, in fact that's the last thing I suspect. What I do suspect is that people use the internet for a basis of ideas to build on- not the same as netdecking, but a close relative. It's also timing too- reading articles a few months ago versus yesterday plays a huge role in whether or not an accusation is well-warranted. It's different when you get an idea, and run with it for a while and build a few different decks to formulate opinions; rather than get an idea and immediatley run with it and have your explanations come directly from those articles.
Stooping so low? It's not so much stooping so low, but rather pointing out responsibility. If players took their time to test decks, get a feel for 4-5 different decks, and got a headstart on certain builds they wouldn't need to resort to netdecking. How do we know when someone resorted to the internet? When they call a deck by someone else's name. Citing Tournament Reports for their Justification. Not knowing what else can go with certain cards.
I agree with your point about Supply and Demand- Pokemon Collector is an excellent example. It is STILL $5, regardless of it being in every deck, but solely because it has been out for a while and is directly available at a fixed rate in Trainer Kits.
Ross.dec? See now here it gets tricky. If you came to a tournament with the deck and explained it's functions to me fully, performed well given opponent's deck matchups, and didn't directly call it "ross.dec", then I have no reason to accuse you or assume you netdecked. If you came down and said "I just built the 2nd place deck from Worlds!" then I would have to assume you netdecked it. It's all about the attitude when it comes to Netdecking, most of the time the netdeckers paint targets on themselves in neon red paint. I've gotten netdecked when I played Yugioh. Not even from the internet- I had been playing a Final countdown deck and took first place one Sunday locally. The following week, someone had copied my exact decklist, done poorly, and then had the nerve to tell me I didn't deserve the prior week's win because the deck wasn't a good deck and I got lucky. Watching him play, he had no idea what he was doing, and clearly didn't know it was NOT an autopilot deck.
Have I gotten ideas from the internet? Yes. I have, and I have also paraded around local tournaments with such in mind. I give credit where credit is due. And when I can't build something, I drop the idea immediately and move on. I may or may not find a substitute. Regardless, I make the idea work with what I have, or I move on. That's where the difference is- most people see something they like, and because someone else has done it and they can't, that's where these topics come up. I can almost garauntee you, that 99% of the people who complain about Magnezone's (prime) price are those who can't afford to build a Megazone (Or other previously named Magnezone based deck) deck. Not those who can't finish their Magnezone (prime) Collection, or those who really really wanted to try a new Magnezone LVX deck in unlimited. Those people learn to wait, or know to move on to a different idea. They manage. It's the ones who exchange effort with moneyor trade value in trying to build already proven (in someone else's hands) to win decks, hoping to achieve the same outcome.
psychup2034
New Member
I'm not exactly sure why you're so defensive. I actually agree with what you're saying, djjoe. The first half of my post was a response to Prof Clay.
There's a huge difference in tone between the two following quotes:
It's reasonable and fair to suggest that the people who are hurt most by steep prices are those who netdeck, those who are new to the game, or those who choose to wait to playtest. It's not as reasonable and not as fair to say "don't blame anyone but your NET-DECKing selves who can't figure what a good card is or isn't without being told so."
There's a huge difference in tone between the two following quotes:
It's reasonable and fair to suggest that the people who are hurt most by steep prices are those who netdeck, those who are new to the game, or those who choose to wait to playtest. It's not as reasonable and not as fair to say "don't blame anyone but your NET-DECKing selves who can't figure what a good card is or isn't without being told so."
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