Whereforth art thou my Cessation Crystal?

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by vanderbilt_grad, Dec 18, 2007.

  1. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    This was touched on elsewhere, but it probably deserves it’s own topic.

    Why in the world aren’t more people playing Cessation Crystal?

    Castaway is already one of the best supporters in format. Why not take advantage of it?

    The counter-argument that I was that no decks really used powers much this season ... to which I say WRONG! Just look at What won Cities. It’s loaded up with decks like:
    * Garde/lade – shut down Gardevoir and they loose major consistancy & speed.
    * Gatr – shut down Delcatty & Mags and they loose a ton of speed and power.
    * Darkwing Duck – That’s one sad duck when his Murkrows can’t use his attack.
    * Nidoqueen / King – Nearly the whole thing is power reliant
    * Infernape / Delcatty – folds to Cess and regular damage.
    * Magmortar / Typhlosion / Delcatty – everything has powers / bodies
    * Venasaur / Furret – While they have nice attacks it’s the powers that puts it over the top
    * R-Gon – Without Delta-Supply how are they special?

    There’s more, but what I’m trying to show is that the huge majority of decks that won BRs use powers heavily. The non-powered decks are there but look to me to be in the minority.

    My personally theory is that Cess is seeing less play because:
    * Many folks like powers & some of the new ones are really fun / good
    * More good non-Colorless/Dark/Metal powers so Battle Frontier isn’t as useful for additional support.
    * Cursed Stone was rotated – it’s still easy to turn off powers but harder to punish them
    * Windstorm
    * Warp Point
    * Simply not having room since we need so many other trainers in this format.

    The thing is that I see most decks going to 2-3 Windstorms, so if you load up the Cess it seems like you ought to be able to make the Crystal stick some especially since it’s searchable and Windstorm isn’t.

    The biggest factor seems to be Cursed Stone being gone & Battle Frontier loosing some of its utility IMHO. This does make it harder to make sure that you cut the powers off or punish them even if they aren’t ... but BF is still good against nearly 2/3 of the decks I listed above even if it doesn’t specifically help against Garde/lade.

    Also without the Holon Engine, VS Seeker, and such the format seems to require that decks run a LOT of trainers. Even moreso with Absol. Many decks simply don't have room to run 4+ power killing cards and keep their own consistancy. The flipside to this is that the format seems to reward speed more than ever right now ... T2 disruption decks are very playable ... but folks are still going for the stage 2 powerhouses.

    So tell me again ... why aren’t folks running Cess?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2007
  2. Ky00ber the III

    Ky00ber the III New Member

    Doesn't the sentence in its original form mean "why are you [insert name here]"?

    Anyways. Cessation is easily gone with Windstorm or Warp. And most decks run powers and the only ones that can afford to run it are those T2 disruption decks.
     
  3. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    I'll edit those in but I'm seeing less WP in most lists here too. WP and Windstorm are feeling the trainer squeeze too. In fact I would argue that most decklists I've seen have anywhere from 0 to 3 Windstorm and WP combined.
     
  4. Ultima

    Ultima New Member

    I'll tell you where they are... I the discard pile after a Baleful wind. Absol is everywhere, and it's so hard to stop it from killing your hand, and even harder to get back the crystals once they've gone.
     
  5. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    I think the biggest reason decks are not running Cessation Crystal now, and this pertains to power denial since the beginning of the game; It's hard to keep up with the decks that use powers when you don't use powers too.

    Power based decks date back to the very beginning of the game when cards like Rain Dance Blastoise, Energy Trans Venusaur and various other Pokemon introduced players to the game. The use and abuse of (Pokemon) Powers was a consistent theme to the game until the third set, Fossil came out. The game's first Power denial Pokemon had been released, and it's name was Muk. Muk could shut down all (Pokemon) Powers on the field. We flip to the future and see that the same battle is happening, with there being many decks that use and abuse (Poke) Powers and there also being decks that denial those decks their (Poke) Powers.

    What has been true since the beginning of the Power vs. Anti-Power battle is that if the Anti-Power deck wants to beat the Power deck, it needs to be just as consistent as the Power deck and needs to be able to setup just as quickly without the use of Powers. During the time of Base Set, Jungle, and Fossil, it wasn't that difficult to accomplish that requirement. All decks had access to unbelievable cards like Professor Oak, Computer Search, and Item Finder, just to name a few. So it wasn't that hard for the anti-Power decks to actually setup just as fast as the decks that abused Powers.

    We flash back to the future. Can we honestly say it is as easy as it once was to setup an anti-Power deck?

    When Fire Red/Leaf Green was released, Pidgeot was unleashed onto the game. One theme stayed consistent from the time Pidgeot was released to when it was finally rotated out. You either played Pidgeot or you played against it.

    The only Power denial Pokemon in the format was Muk ex (ex: Dragons). Even though Muk ex could shut down all (Poke) Powers and Poke-Bodies, it didn't seem to hinder the use of Pidgeot one bit. Pidgeot-based decks over-populated the format and even with Power Denial, Pidgeot ruled the game. The reason for this, in my opinion, was the lack of disruption and the inability of the anti-Power decks to rival the speed, damage, and consistency of the Pidgeot-based decks.

    Not until Emerald came out did we actually see a card that could maybe deter Pidgeot's control over the game. Emerald seemed made to counter Pidgeot because in the set was two cards that would hinder Pidgeot greatly, Medicham ex and Battle Frontier. Medicham ex shut down all (Poke) Powers on the field. Battle Frontier shut down all (Poke) Powers and Poke-Bodies on evolved Colorless, Metal, and Dark pokemon. Mixed with the disruption released in earlier sets like Pow! Hand Extension, Energy Removal 2, and Pokemon Reversal, anti-Power decks had the ability to disrupt one's setup well enough that they might not get setup at all. Throw in cards like Wally's Training, Celio's Network, and Professor Elm's Training Method and the anti-Power decks were able to match some of the consistency of the Power-based decks.

    Against all odds, Pidgeot still saw play and it still dominated. Why? Because Pidgeot-based decks were broken. Decks like LBS (Lugia, Blastoise, Steelix) could deal 200 damage every turn or snipe any Pokemon for 100 damage every turn. With so much firepower in the hands of Pidgeot-based decks, in many cases, they were able to fight off disruption and Power denial decks and still do well in the format. The disruption decks could match the consistency, and had disruption on their side, but nothing in the format could rival the pure speed of Pidgeot. Any deck that ran Pidgeot was more than consistent, it just worked. Even with 2 big counters to it in the format (Battle Frontier and Medicham ex), Pidgeot still ran wild until it got rotated out.

    Even when Pidgeot was not in the format, this theme stayed true to decks that abused Powers always stayed just a bit above the edge of Power denial decks.

    When the Pidgeot-based decks were finally rotated out, a few decks tried to step-up and take it's place. With the release of Delta Species Pokemon, we saw new decks arise like MetaNite (Metagross d, Dragonite d). MetaNite would take over where LBS left off, but it would not be able to rival the same consistency and speed of it purely because of the loss of Pidgeot. But even with that, it still did very well and was a force to be reckoned with through a large part of the time when it was legal.

    Medicham ex was still legal, but it wasn't able to deter all these quick Power decks, even with Battle Frontier. Medicham ex finally found redemption when people did what nobody expected, combined it with Powers. Medicham ex only shut off non-ex Powers, so people started playing ex's with Medicham that had Powers. Medicham/Eeveelutions became a big hit, winning the World Championships in 2006.

    The format stayed the same until the release of Crystal Guardians when a card named Cessation Crystal was released. Cessation Crystal changed the game in one big way. In the past, if you wanted to shut down Powers and Bodies, you had to play a Pokemon that could do that. But with Cessation Crystal, you could attach that to any Pokemon and the Cessation Crystal would do all the work for it. This opened up so many different opportunities to abuse cards that didn't use Poke-Powers and Poke-Bodies and also shut down the opponent's Poke-Powers and Poke-Bodies. The release of Cessation Crystal was, in my opinion, the biggest promotion to Power Denial decks since the release of Muk in the beginning of the game.

    Since then, 2 years ago, we've seen a few anti-Power decks step up and make a foot print on the format. One that automatically jumps to the to front of the list is RaiEggs (Raichu d, Exeguttor d). It was able to disrupt the field well enough to win the National Championships (in the Masters age group) in 2006. Some decks that have tried to mimic the same success as RaiEggs include Ambush (Empoleon/Marowak d), Mario, Kricketune, and various new decks. None have been able to replicate the same success, but a few have been able to do decently in larger tournaments.

    This leads me to my second question. Why aren't anti-Power decks able to put a dent in the shell of Power-based decks?

    If you've read this far, I give you props.

    I feel the reason Cessation Crystal isn't being played that much is because anti-Power decks are failing when faced against Power-based decks for the same reasons they have in the past. They can't match the speed, consistency, health points, and damage output of the Power-based decks. Even when they can rival one or two of those qualities, they can't match all of them.

    Banette can do some mad damage for no energy, but it can't compare to the unlimited damage of Blissey or the ability of Gallade to OHKO anything in the format with it's second attack. Kricketune can do consistent damage on T2, but it can't match the 130HP of many Pokemon now.

    Although the format is started to head towards setup decks again (Magmortar/Typhlosion, Gardy/Gallade), I feel the format is still very attached to fast decks, enough to put a big deterrence in decks that might capitalize on Cessation Crystal and Battle Frontier in hopes of shutting down Poke-Powers and Poke-Bodies.

    When Cessation Crystal gets rotated out, expect to see a format like HL-on again. A few pokemon that can shut down powers, but powers going wild on the format none the less.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2007
  6. ~Blazi-King~

    ~Blazi-King~ New Member

    All I have to say is: I agree on all aspects of your article Prime!

    Very Good Read and Analysis!
     
  7. Darkwalker

    Darkwalker New Member

    Cessation Crystal usage seems to go in cycles. Early this season during the first Battle Roads I was playing a Shiftry Ex (CG) based deck, meant to punish the few Poke Power based decks out there that I assumed would draw the more accomplished players in. Despite doing alright with the deck I made a rather big mistake with my assumption. Cessation Crystal was in roughly 75% of the decks I ran into, and almost none of them ran any kind of Poke Powers with them (Mario, K2, Empoleon, Blissey, etc.). The reason for this I think was the set rotation just prior to this. With the card pool restricted to the smallest point it will be at during the season, the decks and players that kept things simple did well.

    With a metagame like that, people latched on to Cessation Crystal as a catch-all against Powers because it was easy to use and find due to Castaway. What many found during the BR's around here though was that the Cessation Crystal was largely a dead card, since Power based decks were not played as much. In addition, the decks that did try and run powers (R-Gon, for example) constantly ran into Cessation Crystal round after round which hampered how the deck would normally run. With people starting to shy away from Powers, Cessation Crystal became less and less useful.

    We are at the point now where some decks that can and should use it don't because the metagame doesn't warrant it just yet. I have a feeling Cessation will make a big comeback around States, and in decks some people might not think it would normally be in. Decks built where Cessation Crystal can be used at the right time (Lucario Lvl X, DWD, Empoleon with cards like Suicune or Mantine) can mix it in and not disturb what their deck does in any way, but can cause serious problems to whatever they are facing.
     
  8. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    The meta in my area is completely different. Blissey/Delcatty, Garde/lade, Magmoratar/Typhlosion, and more are examples of decks that have won cities here from day 1. That trend seems to mirror what's going on in the City Wins thread too.

    Prime's post was very interesting.
     
  9. JohnnyBlaze

    JohnnyBlaze New Member

    Dude where's my car? Really though come play up here in the NorthEast it is MagSol everywhere. Lock in Cess Crystal with Absol then start to Baleful Wind everything. Majority of the time the Windstorms are getting discarded off of Baleful Wind so any kind of comeback a Powers deck can make is gone in no time and if your opponent is mounting a defense on the bench retreat the Absol and blast away with a Mag Lvl X. The deck is viscious right now.
     
  10. Mew*

    Mew* Active Member

    In my current deck, I only play two Cessation Crystal since Poke-Powers/Bodies aren't so hot in my area right now, and the decks that use them don't play Windstorm from what I have seen. Crystal Beach is a VERY disruptive card. I think they should be used in any deck that doesn't rely on DRE or Boost. That is my top pick for disruption in the format. If a deck doesn't rely on powers, CC is a must. I based my Ambipom deck all around disruption, and sadly Cessation Crystal doesn't see much use as compared to my other cards. But I am happy when it IS there when I need it, and I can easily get it with Castaway!
     
  11. Articjedi

    Articjedi Active Member

    Darn, he got it before me. "Whereforth art" means "Why are"
     
  12. Gymbo ex

    Gymbo ex New Member

    Great analysis seen on this concept so far. My personal viewpoint on Cessation Crystal's lack of impact is: good riddance, stay gone. I think cards like Cessation Crystal make the metagame so very boring and restricted. I like to have a free range of ideas and when you have a couple key cards impacting the metagame so influentially such as Cessation Crystal, Absol, etc the game can get stale.

    That is just my personal opinion. I have no problem seeing the card's lack of play. Disruption is part of the game, yes, but I think a game is more fun to play when you have both parties going at full power and full force so that strategy and sheer ability is the deciding factor in the victory. When I play games I like to have strong games so that people cannot say I "donk" and I hate being "donked." Where's the fun in that?

    Cards like Cessation Crystal, Absol, and Blissey take away from the fun of the game. Which may not be a big problem for people who like to win no matter what and who are super-competitive. But, I think it speaks more about a player's ability to use cards and decks that push the envelope instead of either playing what everyone else plays and/or having to strictly counter what's going on in the metagame.

    Please note I'm not calling anyone who likes Cessation Crystal boring or limited-minded. I just think the concept of disruption wanes in the presence of intense battling. I also think it is a little bit weaker than more consistent decks that are built on a stronger foundation. For example, if you cannot disrupt or beat your opponent early (Decks like Absol/Whatever now and stuff like Medicham ex from the past), you struggle mid-late game. You also rely a bit more on luck too typically if you go with disruption (picking the right cards, flipping for ER2, etc)

    Again, these are just my thoughts.

    ~Jim
     
  13. Skull Bash

    Skull Bash New Member

    I still stand by what I said in the other forum. Blissey is the most popular card/deck. It doesnt use powers. Magmortar/Gardy/Honchkrow are the only threats right now that use powers. Those cards are easier taken out by other cards. Instead of using cessation, people opted to use Absol to try to deal with Gardy. But like I said a lot of the good decks right now are just mixtures of Empoleon, Blissey, Magmortar, Lucario, Absol, etc. most of which dont use powers(Besides Magmortar, but idk if it's worth it.)

    And if all of the good decks right now are running powers..(Which I dont think they are), there are no decks left to contend with that don't run powers. The only decks that would be able to run it are the decks I listed above.
     
  14. DarthPika

    DarthPika New Member

    Don't forget that last year when Metanite was popular, cc beat it because Metagross only had 1 attack. This year many pkmn in power decks,(Gatr, Mag, Lade) can survive because they have other attacks that arn't affected by cc. In fact, with the exception of empoleon and Blissy, most decks that use or use cc where fast st1 decks, that didn't have a lot of hp. This lack of hp, means that even if you can cc lock say Hurrican, they can just Breaking Tail you to death and get rid of the cc. Or they go agro Gatr and, watch as you try to take out the 130 hp. Same with Magmortor and G&G. cc just dosn't work any more.
     
  15. Dark Weedle

    Dark Weedle New Member

    Just from my own expieriences

    If you play cessation crystal you proably dont have much damage output for the first few turns and i can easily beat you with breaking tail only. Once your ccs are gone its over.
     
  16. KazamBolt

    KazamBolt Active Member

    CC isn't as good of a card as it was last year, but it is still a card that can be used to take up 1-2 spots in a deck. Castaway easily searches it and there are always those rogue decks that use powers. Most archtypes will use powers or bodies sometime in the game to setup or help like Empoleon's Mantine, Infernape's Delcatty, Gallade's Gardevoir or Magmortar's Magmortar, Typhlosion and/or Delcatty. Many decks DO use powers now a days, but none of them rely on it. It's still nice to stop their setup for a turn or 2, but it isn't something that absolutely has to be done.
     
  17. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    Skull take a look at the Cities wins thread that I linked to in the first post. Just look at the list and see how man power based decks are there. They are clearly in the majority. There are some Blissey, some Empoleon lists and some Lucario-Empoleon and a few other things that look like they might be powerless or don't heavily rely on powers, but it seems clear to me that they are in the minority.

    Your meta might be different but I'm thinking about what I see in mine and what I see on that list which clearly matches my experience in play. Powers winning Cities. Oh, and Bliss is clearly in decline. Gallade eats it alive and Garde/Gallde is going nuts right now through the US.


    My son's deck at Fort Mill SC featured Dugtrio SW and CC. With a DRE it could potentially do 90 on T2 with cess attached. While it's true decks that run Absol are probably too busy trying to baleful wind you to death you can't count on every deck doing low damage early while running Cess.
     
  18. Dark Weedle

    Dark Weedle New Member

    and then their one pokemon is ohkoed with rc scramble
     
  19. Skull Bash

    Skull Bash New Member

    But it's like I said, people are just using things like Absol to counter Gardy instead of CC. And regardless, Absol might be the best card in the format right now. Other people want things to counter that like Copycat and other cards. With these in the deck, there's minimal room for Castaway/Cessation anymore. It just isn't as worth it as it used to be. With Pachurisu coming out in the next set, I'm not sure how big tools will be,
    but there will be a whole lot better Powers/Bodies than right now.
     
  20. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Pachurisu can only discard tools by his attack. If the opponent doesn't lay the cessation on their active, Pachurisu cannot discard it. If the opponent ko's Pachurisu the same turn they lay the tool, Pachurisu cannot discard the tool. Pachurisu isn't going to even deter tools. Most likely it's going to be KO'd or off the active T3 or sooner to let other things start working. It's primarily a dunsparce, nothing more.
     

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