Why Changing Format wont change the fact its still a crapshoot

[Kayle]

@Eeveelover: Bear with me here, if he wants to use SSBM to make a point about this game that's fine. I'll make sure to bring this back.

I guess you're right but not everyone can L cancel. No where in any Melee book, in game training talks about L-Cancel. Its just shielding as soon as you touch the ground which cancels any animation... not any but you know what I mean. A win by glitching is always bad and Melee had it on a huge scale and people called in advance play. Sure it looked cool when you can do 30 thing in 5 seconds but its still glitching..

The Pokemon rulebook doesn't tell you about Uxie or Claydol, it doesn't tell you about Power Spray or SP Pokemon in general. You find these things out yourself by experimenting, and that makes you a good player. Especially in Pokemon, where the game field is constantly changing and you need to be able to adapt every few months...

Saying "a win by glitching is always bad" is a pretty closed-minded statement, even aside from the arguments about whether or not it was even a glitch. That's like saying a win by powerlock is always bad, or a win by benching is always bad, or a win by lost world is always bad, or... Yeah, there are bad ways to win. But you need to have a more defined reason than 'because it's glitching'.

Does glitching actually hurt the gameplay? Or does it just mean that you have to learn how to abuse the glitch? Does it just mean you need to be an advanced player capable of reliably taking advantage of the holes in the game logic? Was it only available to one character or player, or was it entirely available to both?

Read this, if you have already then read it again. Examine in particular this paragraph:

But there is a limit. There is a point when the bug becomes too much. In tournaments, bugs that turn the game off, or freeze it indefinitely, or remove one of the characters from the playfield permanently are banned. Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the player-1 side of the game. Tricks in fighting games that are side-dependent (that is, they can only be performed by the 2nd player or only by the first player) are sometimes not allowed in tournaments simply because both players don't have equal access to the trick--not because the tricks are too powerful.

In Pokemon, a donk is a trick that can only be performed by the player who wins the coin toss - and it surpasses this aforementioned limit.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

Here is my take on this.

The more chance of a donk happening helps the players who aren't as skilled. The less luck that goes on, the more skilled players thrive. There are players who can go into a tournament with 1 of like 10 decks and top cut. However, in the current environment that's just not the case due to donks being so prevalent.

The other point about only having 7 sets legal, isn't a valid point. We have had only that many sets legal at times before yet that didn't stop anyone from being creative. Yes, the cards were better when that happened, but there is no reason that if you are a good deckbuilder that you can't figure out what works. It takes deckbuilding and skill to do well. You will see that a lot of the player who maybe have had bad luck this year due to the crazy format, do MUCH better next year due to the lack of craziness involved with playing. I chose to judge instead of play, not because I didn't think I could earn an invite, but more so that I just wasn't enjoy the format and what I was playing against. It really has been the worst format I have ever seen. I thought GG was bad, but at least that took skill, this format, you don't really need skill to win, and that really doesn't due justice when it is a CCG trying to find the "BEST" players to gain entry into Worlds.

Drew

 

[vaporeon]

^Thank you for that. Seems like me and a few other people really care about the game. I also don't like Catcher all to much. I do love being able to KO any Pokemon I want. Its why I play with Pokemon Reversal but even I think that Pokemon Catcher will be a little too powerful. Setup won't happen at all.

You do make a good point in those post. I think even Zororak would be a good revenge killer for the dragons.

 

[Prime]

I always wondered why TPCi removed Pokemon Catcher from BW, but given the weak format we're walking into (Hgss-on) with very little setup aid for most of the types that aren't grass or fire or water, Pokemon Catcher would really just make that ratio of those that "have" to those that "don't have" even larger.

Perhaps BW2 will introduce some help for those other types. My Gengar deck is needing some help. :frown:

 

[vaporeon]

@ Kayle

You can't really use Uxie or Claydol the same way. The rule book is only going to tell you about game rules, other stuff you need to know and other rulings. The books says do what an effect tells you to. In Melee, it does not do this. You only hear about it from fans.

The fact is I consider it glitching. It's almost like saying and legit mods to a Pokemons stats are fine as long as they can happen in the game. It's still looked down on but how many people do you know use Pokesav? That could be consider an advance tool that good players use right? It sets the people who understand the game apart from people who dont. I'd really hate to say that but is upsets me when I see people whiteknighting glitches and other flaws ingame because that's how they win.

Sure you play any game to win. Is Wavedashing, which is a glitch legal, sure the game allows for it, is L-Canceling, also a glitch legal, don't see why not, the game allows for it as well, what about donking, that's a flaw in the games rules and I'd hate to say it but that's a legit win as well because the game allows for it. The problem is when people can't see that they win with glitches and flaws to play around what was intended but once it's being done on a wide scale, what can you do about it?

People play the way they can win and make rules accordingly. I can't save video games. Smash is a failed series because people are looking for new ways to glitch, it's why I stopped playing. I'm just saying I'd hate to see Pokemon go that way. I have a love for this game that I'm trying to defend. It's hard to do that when people can only win 1 way.

I do have hope for this format. I see a lot of good in it but its at a bad start. We have 2 basic Pokemon with 130 HP that hit as hard as stage 2 Pokemon. Thats a problem.

 

[Gyaradan]

Comments above.

I'm not sure what the game is trying to do. This is the first time we had basic Pokemon with 130 HP that could hit for 120 damage with no real recoil what so ever. Every other Pokemon that did that had to discard everything attached, need other Pokemon in play, was ex and still had to discard everything.

This is just a bad way to start the next format. because it still allows only a few decks to be played and that Donphan and some other speed water decks. We'll still be at about 4 decks played. Zekrom, Reshiram, Zororak can be good, but not by itself. Maybe with Donphan and Cinccino. and some other fast deck.

I'm not sure if I'm liking all this speed. Its kind of bad for the game.

and what is popular now? luxchomp and sabledonk. both INCREDIBLY speedy. it's much better than what we have now, and the new "speed" decks you refer to won't be NEAR as flexible as the old ones because there is no more sp engine or T1 donk, unless you're playing zekrom donk. not to mention people might actually be able to safely play trainers again. the slower set up decks will still have a chance and there will probably be lots of variants of each. it's going to be very interesting and a much needed change in this stale, dull format.

 

[vaporeon]

^ Thats what I meant by having hope for the format. We don't know what the future B/W sets have instore for the game.

 

[eriknance]

^ Thats what I meant by having hope for the format. We don't know what the future B/W sets have instore for the game.

Yeah, I mean the main distinction that HGSS-on has going for it is that it's NOT speed-based. The appeal of HGSS-on is measured more by the disdain with MD-on than its overall quality. While HGSS-on is lacking in some areas (the lack of setup Pokemon being the main one), just the fact that players can get a turn or two to get things in play is a breath of fresh air.

For future sets, it's really in the hands of the card creators (Pokemanz Laboratories, INC.) to not screw up the game again. The last time they had this opportunity they went and created Gardevoir and Gallade, which translated for places other Japan into a monstrosity with no clear counter. As a response, Kingdra was a viable counter with its speediness. Then things went into a tail spin until we ended up with basics doing 80 anywhere for a single energy while stopping Poke-Powers and having the ability to heal everything, Gust of Wind anything, etc. etc. It's part of the reason I'm happy to see 2X weakness back in the game -- it creates a format that encourages counters to popular decks.

 

[EricDent]

By the time of the rotation, I would think there would be at least 1 more set out by then.
Maybe even 2 if it is September.

So who knows what strategies may present themselves...

I think this is a good thing to shake things up.

I mean a lot of people were "complaining" that the format was stale a couple of months ago.

Sure you could just "copy" some really powerful deck idea, but isn't it better to design a deck that
suits your play style?

Maybe I am a bit "off" when I say that this is a game, and I thought games were supposed to be fun?

It is NOT fun sitting down, and then 5 minutes later getting back up and waiting the extra 20 plus minutes for the
next round. This is pretty common with a lot of the "best" decks right now.

With the new stuff, there might be a better chance of an even playing field, no matter the skill levels.

 

[Kayle]

The fact is I consider it glitching. It's almost like saying and legit mods to a Pokemons stats are fine as long as they can happen in the game. It's still looked down on but how many people do you know use Pokesav? That could be consider an advance tool that good players use right? It sets the people who understand the game apart from people who dont. I'd really hate to say that but is upsets me when I see people whiteknighting glitches and other flaws ingame because that's how they win.

It's harder to judge with RPGs because of the amount of work you have to go to to get anything good out of the game, but I'd sooner equate L-Canceling to IV breeding than to PokeSav. PokeSav does not break any rules (unless you use it explicitly for such, in which case, good luck playing in any sanctioned tournaments), it just saves you work.

Sure you play any game to win. Is Wavedashing, which is a glitch legal, sure the game allows for it, is L-Canceling, also a glitch legal, don't see why not, the game allows for it as well, what about donking, that's a flaw in the games rules and I'd hate to say it but that's a legit win as well because the game allows for it. The problem is when people can't see that they win with glitches and flaws to play around what was intended but once it's being done on a wide scale, what can you do about it?

...I don't understand your point.

I could say that Team Hatter's Game Over deck was an oversight that wasn't ever intended to be possible - Dialga Lv. X, Jirachi RR and Seeker weren't really supposed to be in the same format. [I think they were for a while though, in Japan - maybe not.] That makes it a "glitchy" deck. But I don't see ANYONE up in arms about it.

Donks are "allowed" by the game in the same way that wavedashing is "allowed". However, one is clearly, clearly broken. It removes all skill from the game and just hands the win to whoever goes first. Wavedashing is not.

I do have hope for this format. I see a lot of good in it but its at a bad start. We have 2 basic Pokemon with 130 HP that hit as hard as stage 2 Pokemon. Thats a problem.

See this particularly irate post about Zekrom. Yes, it was for MD-on, but I have a hard time seeing either variant working at all without Uxie. It sounds like starter Pokemon are going to be a common way to play, and if you're going to waste your time and energy getting a fast 120 on a starter Pokemon, I can't see that going far.

Catcher makes it a whole different beast. But we'll see.

 

[iansedelow]

^ Doesn't that require Pachirisu having to attack though? Its not a donk if its not over on T1.

EDIT: Never mind, I'm stupid. I just looked it up.. But is it going to be likely to see 3 Lightning energies in opening hand?

It happens. I've played quite a few games with Zekrom and I seem to get those hands often.

 

[Qwachansey]

Zekrom Donk needs FIVE cards in the OPENING HAND to even have a shot at donking. Without Zekrom active they're ruined. Without THREE LIGHTNING ENERGIES it's over. And if I have more than one Basic the whole thing is moot. This deck should really be looked at for its potential T2 or T3 rather than T1 IMO.

1 :lightning:
1 :lightning:
1 :lightning:
1 Zekrom
1 Pokemon Collector

 

[TheDoctor]

I already have at least 4 decks that actually work HGSS on. We also have to remember a new set will be coming out after Worlds which can change the format.

What really annoys me is Vileplume.

 

[vaporeon]

^ That I agree with.

 

[CFOURCOLTSFAN]

Yeah i've 4 decks that work as well, also this Zekrom thing, at best it donks in 35% of games, AT BEST!
Also i wouldn't mind going through a year of Zekrom and Reshiram dominating, they're legendaries i think it's COOL that SR Legendaries are playable and aren't stupid SPs either, just my point.

 

[jrwaxman]

From what I have seen a good Zekrom deck does not even play Collector so I think you a little off chancey. From what I have seen at league it is a scary situation to have to face.

 

[CFOURCOLTSFAN]

^
I'm playing 1 in my list but it doesn't always donk, it donks enough that it will scare the crap out of you though, not gonna lie. I like the deck but i don't think it donk enough to warrant it to be a donking deck, i think it has a CHANCE to be the fastest deck around though.

 

[TheDoctor]

Zekrom is just pure hype.

 

[SebastianS]

i didnt expect my troll thread to get this far
i come back in a week and like
8 pages
awesome.
well i hope you guys have talked about something enlightning!
enjoy!
great things happen when you have a little sauwwwce in you

 

[Shen]

When lacking a sufficient counter argument, turn it into a troll thread