Worlds Grinder-Top cut or single elimination??

[Martin]

I think the Grinder was perfect. They should do it again next year, because from what I saw, the best players really did emerge victorious. As for Worlds, I think Worlds 2005 should of been a top 8 only cut. No top 32, too many bad decks can get in. Do it in 06! TOP 8 ONLY! =D

 

[NoPoke]

The 'problem' with the grinder was that many of the 15+ didn't realise the consequences of

a) time constraints
b) the large field
c) that there might only be eight spots and not more

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I hope that the grinder stays as swiss since it is probably my only oportunity to play against foreign players.

Even if the reality is that two losses means that you have no chance of getting through many will choose to play because of the social FUN side to pokemon.

I would like to see players with a single loss get through to worlds for the selfish reason that it gives ME a better chance! However I don't want to see the flood gates opened such that the 15+ grinder admits more than a small percentage of the total entrants in 15+. Exactly how much of Worlds should be filled by LCQ spots in 15+? I know that is kind of a poll question but I wouldn't want more than 10% of the field to be from the LCQ. Its currently around 6% which seems ok to me, for all that means I'll never make it through the grinder!!!

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None of this applies to the 10- group. It may apply to the 11-14 group at some time in the future. At that point I think we can anticpate changes. Possibly a world series to take the bugeoning number of YOUNG players into account.

 

[Scizor]

NoPoke, I don't really understand what you are getting at. Most 15+ players didn't realize those things? What are you talking about? The eight spots we obviously didn't expect, but time constraints and a large tourney, well for ONCE, California was prepared for a big event. Check out our attendance records, how would someone not know that the grinder was going to be huge? Time constraints is a poor, poor excuse to me too. Everything should be planned far in advance to allow enough time to run a proper event and the SAME goes for the players, in knowing the time and structure of an event.

Martin is right too, Top 8 for the Main Event would be nice. Run more swiss rounds. More rounds = Better players really start to come out on top with the best records. Besides, the KING OF THE WEST went 7-1 in Swiss and lost in top 32 SINGLE ELIMINATION, due to a bad matchup. Top 8 > 16 > 32 for Worlds.

EDIT: Go read my first post on page one of this topic. Seems like everyone ignored it.

 

[Muk Man]

no single elm...too many factors...to determine

what if you face a deck that you are weak against? does that mean you should be eliminated...even the world champ's deck lost a match...single elim means that the winner will have had to had the LUCK of opponents swiss is the best factor for determining the top players...i sya that if nintendo cant decied how to do it...ask the contestents at next years grinder during sign up...take a vote i am willing to bet that 90% of those in the grinder will just say no to single elim...

 

[GymLeaderPhil]

NoPoke, I don't really understand what you are getting at. Most 15+ players didn't realize those things? What are you talking about?

Well now they do or should.

The eight spots we obviously didn't expect,

What was promised was given: http://op.pokemon-tcg.com/content/events/faqs/2004-2005/last_chance_faq.asp

Check out our attendance records, how would someone not know that the grinder was going to be huge?

I assume that it was not known at the time of planning this event that attendance would have increased. Nobody knew that US Nationals was going to have a huge spike in attendance and nobody could have predicted that the attendance to the Grinder was going to increase.

The size is really a non-issue. We didn't hit the cap for the number of players, although we were a few shy of reaching that point.

Time constraints is a poor, poor excuse to me too.

I invite you to plan your own World Championships and understand why there are time constraints. While you may enjoy playing more rounds and a cut to determine which eight players get in the Grinder, it is neither feasible nor worth anybody's time to do so.

Everything should be planned far in advance to allow enough time to run a proper event.

Two things:
1) This event wasn't just planned on the fly. This is why POP didn't anticipate such a jump in attendance for the Grinder... it just wasn't known at that point during planning.
2) As far as I'm concerned it was a proper event. Please indicate to me what POP and the staff did that was improper.

and the SAME goes for the players, in knowing the time and structure of an event.

I invite you to find both of those things on this page: http://op.pokemon-tcg.com/content/events/faqs/2004-2005/last_chance_faq.asp

 

[Scizor]

I don't think you have a clue what I was trying to get across. I wasn't bashing POP at ALL. I'm done here, there are too many ignorant people here. Go read my 1st post, it's nothing BUT the truth.

 

[FireFighter095ReBorn]

The Grinder SHOULD be single elimination best 2/3 games. Will it be? No. Every post I see about there being serious proposals by the 15+, SOMEONE ALWAYS posts "oh the 10- would never have that happen" THAT is exactly the reason it will NEVER happen. As long as the game is 'focused' toward kids and families, the 15+ will never be happy. It's simple. This isn't Magic, it isn't VS, it isn't ANY of those highly competitive games. Maybe it's a shame, but we have to deal with it. Excuse me if that was off topic, I really thought it had to be said. Do what you want.

I see where yoru coming from and how you see it not working. This game is a game based on nothing more then kids being happy and the rest of the community evolving as they grow. I and alot of us need to look back and relize that before we rant on single elimination or if there will be more then 8 invites. I think next year POP will look back on this mistake and find a way to fix it. Maybe they will just make top 8 for all and just kill the extra invites or maybe they will mke a better format for players so this issue that occured will not happen again. I was hasty to put this up and argue it after all that i have seen. Scizor is right: "This isent magic,vs,yu-gi-oh or any otehr competitive game out there" This game is and always will be a game based on kid participation and fun. If it ever steers away from that,it will die and POP knows that so dont expect any diffrent then what they have now.

I must thank scizor for posting this and opening my eyes to the situation and the truth. :clap:

 

[Adv1sor]

I think next year POP will look back on this mistake and find a way to fix it.

What mistake?

This year's grinder was one of the best ran tournaments I've ever seen.

 

[meganium45]

I still like my way to fix the 15+ grinder the best :biggrin:

 

[The Gorn]

I totally agree with Meganium45.

Eliminate the 15+ grinder. (But offer more trips instead.)

 

[Scizor]

Well, it's nice to see someone agrees with me. I do, however, disagree that the game would die if it steered in another direction, like say, a Pro Tour for the 15+. I would think it is possible to have a competitive part of the game, while maintaining the family and fun part of it. But, that's all a different topic. Also, I hope everyone is reading Moss' post on the Scrub thing on the News and Gossip. Should be really opening people's eyes.

 

[GreatFox]

As I posted in the previous topic I started.... All that has to be done is announce how many open seats are available earlier in the Tournament. Don't wait 'till the very last round to announce it.

This year, they could have told us earlier, right after all the invites had checked in at the set time... that would have made it what... 3rd or 4th round abouts... and there would have been no problems.

Then those that wantd to could keep playing and the rest could have droped and enjoyed the rest of the side events and the food.

Plain and simple!

 

[SD PokeMom]

As I posted in the previous topic I started.... All that has to be done is announce how many open seats are available earlier in the Tournament. Don't wait 'till the very last round to announce it.

This year, they could have told us earlier, right after all the invites had checked in at the set time... that would have made it what... 3rd or 4th round abouts... and there would have been no problems.

Then those that wantd to could keep playing and the rest could have droped and enjoyed the rest of the side events and the food.

Plain and simple!

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=345540#post345540

You guys keep harping on this issue that we 'knew' how many we were taking. Main event check in did not end until 7pm. Even at that, we had a few players trickling in. Once that was done, it took about 1/2 hour for ME to generate the report of how many players had checked in, and how many were marked for late check in. Then, doing the math, I was able to figure out how many slots were available, and make adjustments to have room for error.

So, it was about 8pm before we knew exactly how many slots were available. It was VERY clear prior to that how many would get in in 10-, so they were notified.

If you guys want single elimination, fine, that's what we'll do. But, I doubt that's really the case, as it sure is nice for those people who seem to actually enjoy playing the game to be able to keep playing, even though they've been eliminated.

Trust me, single elimination is MUCH easier for us to run, so maybe that's what we'll do next year for 15+ since the group is obviously so displeased with our doing exactly what we said we would do in this 'farce' of an event.

Thanks,
Prof. Dav

'mom =/

 

[Adv1sor]

Thanks for posting that 'mom. I hadn't seen Prof. Dav's response.

I sincerely hope that POP won't think that the rantings of a few of us fools represent the majority of the players.

I played in the 15+ Grinder this year and I thought it was one of the best ran tournaments I have ever seen. Since I am from Sensei's gym, that says a lot!

They promised 8 slots and 8 slots were delivered. You know some people will complain no matter what you give them.

Personally, I would like to see all major tournaments ran on a no time limit, single match, single elimination style format. This adds a level of competition that, to me, really sets the tournaments aside from the league. I've ran single and double elimination style myself for a few small tournaments always offering league play for those eliminated. Becuase half the players are eliminated each round the "no time limit" thing doesn't really hurt much, and it eliminates stalling.

Keep up the great work POP! I've already scheduled time off for next year's Worlds and am planning to book the hotel room as soon as they say exactly where it will be held, regardless of the format for the Grinder.

 

[GreatFox]

So, it was about 8pm before we knew exactly how many slots were available. It was VERY clear prior to that how many would get in in 10-, so they were notified.

Wasn't that what I posted? They knew at about 8pm, so it should've been announced at 8pm. Which was durring the 3rd round or begining of the 4th abouts (if I remember correctly). Instead, it wasn't announced until about 9pm.

I'm not saying there should have been more open slots. I know 8 was all that was promised and I took that into account when I played. Thats why after my 3 loss I droped cause I know there was no chance at all of making it by then and I'd rather go enjoy the rest of the side events and get something to eat while we waited for the final results (and cheer on the rest of my friends that still had a chance).

 

[NoPoke]

As to the tardiness between the announcement at 9pm and knowing that only 8 slots were available at 8pm. I certainly don't know exactly when it was determined that only top 8 in 15 plus would make it, or when this information was communicated too the people running the event. Nor do I know what other tasks were being carried out durring this hour delay. Or even that the delay was a whole 60 minutes. 8pm is a very round figure which could easily be 8:20pm.

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So exactly why should the grinder be single elim?

Though I can see lots of advantages I can't see any way around that monsterous disadvantage of an unlucky matchup. Its one thing to misjudge the local metagame and play the wrong deck but its quite another to miss out just because your one and only chance (aka single elim) was determined by matchup luck

Double elimination maybe, but single elimination? JUST SAY NO