I would say something but I think enough other people told you off
As for the yugioh comments:
Some cards on the yugioh list is becuase they are broken when they interact with them selves or involve OTK, FTK.
Would you support a banlist?
- Thread starter kwisdumb
- Start date
I would say something but I think enough other people told you off
As for the yugioh comments:
Some cards on the yugioh list is becuase they are broken when they interact with them selves or involve OTK, FTK.
Sure.
This thread isn't a thread about how the banlist would be implemented into the game nor the practicality of doing so. This is just about how the players would react. There are a number of good reasons this will probably
never happen, but that's not really what we're talking about here.
Haha, good call.
Yes, because YGO is a totally terrible game and doesn't sell well at all, nor does ANYONE play it.
Oh, and implementing one part of a game automatically turns X game into Y game, forgot.
Again, this isn't about why it WON'T happen, it's about how people would react to it happening. I didn't realize this point was so difficult to get across.
what.
Or your Luxray is worth a fraction of what it's worth when it rotates next year?
AyameHikaru
Active Member
The thing with Pokemon is they DO make a limiter for overpowered cards. Level Xs have a built-in limit in the form of having the same name as their normal counterpart. You think Luxray's bad now, imagine if people could run 4-4 lines of them. Same with pretty much every other Lv X that sees competitive play.
I don't know how many people remember the old Pokemon *. Some of them were rather awesome. They were basics. But, Pokemon was SMART, and limited them to 1 a deck. Not just 1 of each, ONE POKEMON * PER DECK. It was written actually ON the card, they didn't have to fix it later.
That, to me, is the biggest difference between Pokemon and other TCGs. In Pokemon, things are carefully considered BEFORE they are made, and if it's too overpowered, they put it in a section where it's limited in a way most players accept with a shrug. (Tho, Lost Link may have fouled this up, LOL) We haven't had a card banned since Neo, I don't think we should change that now.
I don't know how many people remember the old Pokemon *. Some of them were rather awesome. They were basics. But, Pokemon was SMART, and limited them to 1 a deck. Not just 1 of each, ONE POKEMON * PER DECK. It was written actually ON the card, they didn't have to fix it later.
That, to me, is the biggest difference between Pokemon and other TCGs. In Pokemon, things are carefully considered BEFORE they are made, and if it's too overpowered, they put it in a section where it's limited in a way most players accept with a shrug. (Tho, Lost Link may have fouled this up, LOL) We haven't had a card banned since Neo, I don't think we should change that now.
z-man
New Member
Ok so here's the problem. If you were to ban cards, prices across the board would drop, and Pokemon would be less popular for 3rd parties to sell singles for. Our loss as consumers. For example, if Cyrus got banned, SP decks would degrade, and drop prices across the board. The format is nearly forever in a state of rock-paper-scissors where 1 deck has a good matchup to another deck, but has a bad matchup to a third deck. Getting rid of paper, for example, would make Rock amazing, and Scissors terrible.
Limiting would be less devistating, but still pretty bad. Limiting anything to 3 would be entirely pointless and would change very little. If you were to limit to 2, that would reduce most main attackers to techs at most. This would cause them to stop being played, and, once again, cause the unbalance. Limiting to 1 would be completely worthless in anything except Lv X. The fact that LV X pokemon have to be active already limits their worth.
Limiting trainers would create MANY angry players. More so than limiting pokemon. And a limit on energy... would be genius. 6 basic energies per deck maximum [/sarcasm]
Limiting would be less devistating, but still pretty bad. Limiting anything to 3 would be entirely pointless and would change very little. If you were to limit to 2, that would reduce most main attackers to techs at most. This would cause them to stop being played, and, once again, cause the unbalance. Limiting to 1 would be completely worthless in anything except Lv X. The fact that LV X pokemon have to be active already limits their worth.
Limiting trainers would create MANY angry players. More so than limiting pokemon. And a limit on energy... would be genius. 6 basic energies per deck maximum [/sarcasm]
ashinto
Active Member
We're seeing it anyway basically...I think that the banlist would be even worse is because then people would be whining about how a card shouldn't be banned.
I already see them...
AyameHikaru
Active Member
First off, why does it matter how much money third party sellers make?
Second, we're not talking about taking a rock/paper/scissors situation and taking out paper. We're talking more of a rock/paper/Uzi situation. in which case limiting the Uzi is a good thing. Now, Uzis don't often sneak into the format, but when they do they need to be handled carefully.
superfullvic
New Member
Something nobody mentionned yet is we play Pokémon TCG for FUN in the first place... If you don't then get a life. And I personnally think that owning that "super card that won tournaments" can be very cool ! I think it's something you can be proud of. Pokémon in general made pokémons stronger than others, so I guess that valuable cards can be considered as Legendary Pokémon !
Where's your heart ?? When was the last time you read the lines describing the pokémon on the card or even looked at the image ? Competition is a thing, and I don't blame it, as it gives us a goal for playing, but we should just accept that certain cards are more powerful than others. Other than that it's pretty much making black and white become a plain gray, 'know what I mean ?
No BanList for me, or I just stop playing.
Stop Complaining, Start Countering.
Where's your heart ?? When was the last time you read the lines describing the pokémon on the card or even looked at the image ? Competition is a thing, and I don't blame it, as it gives us a goal for playing, but we should just accept that certain cards are more powerful than others. Other than that it's pretty much making black and white become a plain gray, 'know what I mean ?
No BanList for me, or I just stop playing.
Stop Complaining, Start Countering.
tehmoe
New Member
it wouldn't matter, cause the banlist would so many cards you'd be better off with rotation. its not like they wouldn't have energy removal/ gust of wind/ scoop up etc banned. no way in heck would prof oak be at four, maybe 2 if we were lucky. computer search would have to be limited to 1 and thats only talking about the obvious, not to mention holon engine would be restricted as well as tons of draw power cards(i say this assuming the banlist would mirror that of ygo) powerspray will be limited to 1 some pokemon might also be at the 1 only stage such as uxies and maybe even the stage 1/2 of certain evolution lines. ban list would be terrible, if you wanna play older cards with newer ones you'd be better of asking for an official unlimited play.
shiftrymaster68
Active Member
This might be the dumbest post I've ever seen.
Yeah, listen to this guy, 'cause he thinks "that owning that 'super card that won tournaments' can be very cool !" and "Pokémon in general made pokémons stronger than others, so I guess that valuable cards can be considered as Legendary Pokémon !"
However, banlists are unneeded. They would unbalance the game more than balance it.
I don't think there is any real need for a ban list, because the card developers do a reasonably good job at balancing the format. In the grand scheme of things, while you can cram all the competitive playability of a set into a couple of cards (UL much?) I don't think there are any truly infallible cards around. You can have SP that more or less control the format, but there are a always hard counters such of Machamp or Mewtwo Lvl X. Techs can change that, but that makes the game more interesting. If you get out the ban hammer, the format will constantly be changing, which will be a lot of stress, especially on players with less experience or disposable Income.
Way hay first post. Sorry I generally just lurk but had to register to chip in my 2 cents here. I'll try to reply to the main points brought up. BTW I am an active Yu-gi-oh and Magic player as well.
The main reason Yugi needs a ban list is because the card effects are pretty much ripped straight from the TV show where logic doesn't apply. This leads to a lack of play testing by the design team so extremely broken cards get released without any thought and then have to be banned.
Pokemon and Magic both have much better design teams so a rotation works with them. Especially as the rotation means that you get a good amount of time from when a set is released until it is rotated out so you don't feel like you've wasted a lot of money of a card only for it to be banned within six months or worse an emergency ban.
Plus you do get people that actually enjoy collecting Pokemon cards so even older cards retain some value whereas Yugi nobody is really interested in the crappy rares or even supers so rarity really plays no part in a cards cost.
If something really needs banned in MTG or Pokemon then I don't see a reason not to ban it but because of the set rotations and the aforementioned better design teams and play testers you usually end up with 4/5 top decks that are capable of winning and even new players can build an OK deck relatively cheaply. Although this changed with MTG slightly with the introduction of epic rares.
I'm just going to give a rough estimate for entry barriers to each game (assuming a reasonable deck)
Yugi - At least $100 for a tier 2 deck but probably even more depending on what rarer cards you need for it. For a tournament winning deck probably closer to $200-300. And that's every six months depending on what gets hit in the ban list.
Pokemon - Maybe $80 for deck staples (trainers, support and Claydol) then whatever else you want.
MTG - OK I'm not actually sure because this is the one I only play occasionally. But my deck now probably only cost around $60 and is alright.
The main reason Yugi needs a ban list is because the card effects are pretty much ripped straight from the TV show where logic doesn't apply. This leads to a lack of play testing by the design team so extremely broken cards get released without any thought and then have to be banned.
Pokemon and Magic both have much better design teams so a rotation works with them. Especially as the rotation means that you get a good amount of time from when a set is released until it is rotated out so you don't feel like you've wasted a lot of money of a card only for it to be banned within six months or worse an emergency ban.
Plus you do get people that actually enjoy collecting Pokemon cards so even older cards retain some value whereas Yugi nobody is really interested in the crappy rares or even supers so rarity really plays no part in a cards cost.
If something really needs banned in MTG or Pokemon then I don't see a reason not to ban it but because of the set rotations and the aforementioned better design teams and play testers you usually end up with 4/5 top decks that are capable of winning and even new players can build an OK deck relatively cheaply. Although this changed with MTG slightly with the introduction of epic rares.
I'm just going to give a rough estimate for entry barriers to each game (assuming a reasonable deck)
Yugi - At least $100 for a tier 2 deck but probably even more depending on what rarer cards you need for it. For a tournament winning deck probably closer to $200-300. And that's every six months depending on what gets hit in the ban list.
Pokemon - Maybe $80 for deck staples (trainers, support and Claydol) then whatever else you want.
MTG - OK I'm not actually sure because this is the one I only play occasionally. But my deck now probably only cost around $60 and is alright.
z-man
New Member
If third party sellers make less, they might stop selling. If they stop selling, players will have less options of where to buy singles. That would mean less people, for example, If we ban Luxray LV X, there goes some of our value. If enough value is dropped all around, we could lose some of our places where we buy singles. If enough shops stop selling, the other shops will increase their prices due to having more demand than supply.
As for RPS, I have not ever seen an "uzi" situation in the format (except for Sneasel... that was just hax). Just because paper is used about 70% of the time, and scissors only 5% of the time does not mean that paper should be banned. Its just players should suck it up an do something about the format.
I agree with DrunkenPlayer also. Pokemon is a very well designed game for the rotation. With the power creep, we should never need a ban list. Old cards should be unappealing to play with. Look at Sneasel, a once banned card, released as a lowly common. No one cares anymore about that guy. I'd say suck it up and continue on.
Goldenthumb
New Member
Simply put
Pokemon doesnt do ban lists because they do reprints of older cards. Anything that they still want in the format will be reprinted in new sets. Example: rare candy, warp point, potion, switch....
And for the record pokemon does ban cards.
Pokemon doesnt do ban lists because they do reprints of older cards. Anything that they still want in the format will be reprinted in new sets. Example: rare candy, warp point, potion, switch....
And for the record pokemon does ban cards.
pokemontexas
New Member
I always hated the fact that you couldn't use your most powerful cards inYGO. Thats why Iquit. Rotation FTW.
I think one thing people have failed to mention in the YGO vs Pokemon argument is resources for activation. I played YGO for awhile and had some great experiences with it, I just moved on to a different card game when it was right for me.
Now as I remember you could someone level 1-4 monsters for 0 penalty. 5-6 1 monster had to be sac's, 7-8 2. Yes you had life points which could be used for various effects sure, but no raw resource to make any effect happen. What I mean is if I wanted to use Raigeki, I played Raigeki and boom your monsters are gone. I wanted to attack with Gemini Elves there they go? (Yeah I'm YGO dating myself here shush) Thus there would be a reason to ban/limit cards.
In Pokemon I want Luxray GL X do something I need atleast 1 Lightening energy and 1 colorless energy or some way to provide it (hai2u E-Gain) and then attack. In theory I could run out of said resource leaving my Pokemon useless if they needed said resource to attack.
Comparatively trainers and spell cards are both resource free and thus would make sense to ban or limit. Again the question comes to what gets banned and limited. If one thing gets targeted over another (say Broken time Space becomes limited to 2 while E Gain is still fair game S2 players would rage a bit) players will not be happy.
Essentially the need to ban things would have to be great (this from a Sneasel/Slowking era player) Lux X doesn't affect the game the same way 3x Slowking in play did. Rather than a Ban/Limit list perhaps an active forum where players could voice things that would be useful to the companies/y producing the cards so they know what sort of cards need to be designed. Requests would have to be broad with reasoning behind them not just "Bring back claydol cause he is cool!' more "We need a new set up Pokemon as Claydol upped the consistency of many decks and now they do not function the same without a similar engine."
If there is such a feature available then I was unaware.
One idea from another TCG I played that was pretty cool was that the top player at a big event as part of the prize helped in designing a card that was released in a future expansion. I think it would be interesting for world champs to aid in deciding a card that would be released perhaps the top 4 from each category would collaborate to make a card to be released. It would at least stand that it would reflect what a portion of the player base would want
Now as I remember you could someone level 1-4 monsters for 0 penalty. 5-6 1 monster had to be sac's, 7-8 2. Yes you had life points which could be used for various effects sure, but no raw resource to make any effect happen. What I mean is if I wanted to use Raigeki, I played Raigeki and boom your monsters are gone. I wanted to attack with Gemini Elves there they go? (Yeah I'm YGO dating myself here shush) Thus there would be a reason to ban/limit cards.
In Pokemon I want Luxray GL X do something I need atleast 1 Lightening energy and 1 colorless energy or some way to provide it (hai2u E-Gain) and then attack. In theory I could run out of said resource leaving my Pokemon useless if they needed said resource to attack.
Comparatively trainers and spell cards are both resource free and thus would make sense to ban or limit. Again the question comes to what gets banned and limited. If one thing gets targeted over another (say Broken time Space becomes limited to 2 while E Gain is still fair game S2 players would rage a bit) players will not be happy.
Essentially the need to ban things would have to be great (this from a Sneasel/Slowking era player) Lux X doesn't affect the game the same way 3x Slowking in play did. Rather than a Ban/Limit list perhaps an active forum where players could voice things that would be useful to the companies/y producing the cards so they know what sort of cards need to be designed. Requests would have to be broad with reasoning behind them not just "Bring back claydol cause he is cool!' more "We need a new set up Pokemon as Claydol upped the consistency of many decks and now they do not function the same without a similar engine."
If there is such a feature available then I was unaware.
One idea from another TCG I played that was pretty cool was that the top player at a big event as part of the prize helped in designing a card that was released in a future expansion. I think it would be interesting for world champs to aid in deciding a card that would be released perhaps the top 4 from each category would collaborate to make a card to be released. It would at least stand that it would reflect what a portion of the player base would want
Shino Bug Master
Front Page News Editor
Ha, I just realized reading this thread that Pokemon has a huge banlist now. Of foreign language cards. I remember when that was announced with all the "I'm gonna quit!" posts.