Zpst bdif?

[Arks Arcanum]

Theorymon is bad without playtesting. Playtesting results are what we should be basing these deck matchups on not theorymon alone. I have a lot of experience with ZTPS (3x Battle roads, 2nd, 5th and 6th, and lots of playtesting online and with friends). I think Zekrom has about a 50-50 matchup with Tyram. I honestly think that Tyram is Zekroms hardest matchup. If you can disrupt them early then you can sweep them but if they break out some quick Typhlos its over. Goth and Ross are actually easy matchups if you tech appropriately. A consistent list will put your opponent in a tough situation no matter what they are playing.

Back to theorymon I have what I think is a decent example of theorymon failing badly (this is based on my personal theorymon and playtesting). In theory, ZPTS should destroy Cinncino/Kingdra. It doesn't. At all. Between PTCGO games and games with a friend with a solid list, I have lost to it once out of 10+ matches because I was donked that one time. Zekrom one-shots everything in your deck and Cinn/Kingdra is not the fastest deck out there, so in theory it should lose bad, but it doesn't play out this way in actual play. Zekrom can not target and knock out anything that will devastate Cinn/Kingdra and thus once set up, Zekrom just can't keep up with the KO trade.

Thus, I stand bye my general feeling about preparing for tournaments. Playtest, Playtest, Playtest. Theorymon is great because everything is all unicorns and rainbows, but if you don't put the work in and test out this theorymon your pot at the end of the rainbow will not be full of gold, it will be empty.

 

[for some reason]

Because the trick of using Pachirisu and Shaymin to instantly power up Zekrom only works a few times. After that, the deck slows down considerably. Zekrom also hurts itself, so it's easy to revenge kill, meaning your opponent will be forced to get another one powered up.

Plus, Zoark/Cincinno, of all things, tends to be really good at plowing through Zekroms. It's not good to have problems against a popular budget deck.

Lol I got first place with Zoroark Cinccino at a battle roads and the Only thing that I played against was ZPST. I didn't lose a single match.

 

[Ignatious]

Theorymon is bad without playtesting. Playtesting results are what we should be basing these deck matchups on not theorymon alone. I have a lot of experience with ZTPS (3x Battle roads, 2nd, 5th and 6th, and lots of playtesting online and with friends). I think Zekrom has about a 50-50 matchup with Tyram. I honestly think that Tyram is Zekroms hardest matchup. If you can disrupt them early then you can sweep them but if they break out some quick Typhlos its over. Goth and Ross are actually easy matchups if you tech appropriately. A consistent list will put your opponent in a tough situation no matter what they are playing.

Back to theorymon I have what I think is a decent example of theorymon failing badly (this is based on my personal theorymon and playtesting). In theory, ZPTS should destroy Cinncino/Kingdra. It doesn't. At all. Between PTCGO games and games with a friend with a solid list, I have lost to it once out of 10+ matches because I was donked that one time. Zekrom one-shots everything in your deck and Cinn/Kingdra is not the fastest deck out there, so in theory it should lose bad, but it doesn't play out this way in actual play. Zekrom can not target and knock out anything that will devastate Cinn/Kingdra and thus once set up, Zekrom just can't keep up with the KO trade.

Thus, I stand bye my general feeling about preparing for tournaments. Playtest, Playtest, Playtest. Theorymon is great because everything is all unicorns and rainbows, but if you don't put the work in and test out this theorymon your pot at the end of the rainbow will not be full of gold, it will be empty.

No one made the claim that theory should replace testing. I don't know why you posted this.

 

[Arks Arcanum]

No one made the claim that theory should replace testing. I don't know why you posted this.

That's not what I was implying at all. I just wanted to present that I felt it much more important to test as much as possible. A lot of the discussion in this thread is not based on testing but rather on theory. I was trying to provide my personal experience and insight into how I feel about the topic at hand and also some comments about another topic that came up in discussion, which is what I thought the intent of the this thread was. So I don't know why you needed to dismiss my comment.

 

[N plasma]

If you can't set up, it's not a good hand. Perhaps that Magneboar deck run Pichu, plays sage and grabs a means to get a Pichu and immediately fills the bench. Magneboar is a bad example imo because I feel Zekrom has a positive match up there anyways. Generally speaking if set up decks cannot acquire a comfortable bench on T1, it's not a good hand. It's a slow hand.

Does your definition of a bad hand mean not getting sett up?
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[ShadowGuard]

No matter the matchup, ZPST wins if it goes first and/or the opponent gets a bad start. Otherwise, it loses.

So what does Zekrom winning a lot of BRs tell about our format?

 

[TrainerEnjay]

I've playtested against a ZTPS deck with gothitelle like 50 times literally. The games have gone about 50/50 because there is so much tech room in ZTPS and my friend found a combination of techs that are hard to play around. He can donk me, he can take advantage of bad starts (as can i), or if those don't work his techs make the matchup difficult. The techs he added also don't hurt his percentage of first turn donk. Not sure if it's BDIF, but I think any deck at this point can win a tournament based on build and what you face. Well-built Reshiram and Zekrom deck variants are BD(ecks)IF in my opinion.

 

[calisupra2nr]

I think most people in this thread are completely ignoring the fact that ZPST is all about consistency -setup and taking the RIGHT prizes fast. When you have a decklist that is something like this....

4 zekrom
4 tornadus
2 pachi
2 shaymin

4 dce
12 lightning

4 junk arm
4 catcher...

You can really chose what prizes you take very quickly. I am not going to call it BDIF just yet, but it has to be very very close. Once eviolite comes out, you can drop defenders and have a great way to mitigate damage received. Sure it has bad matchups vs Goth, but if so needed play a black belt or 2. Goth decks really can't afford to lose more than 2 gothitelles anyways, but I digress...

ZPST should be a nominee for BDIF along with Tyram

 

[N plasma]

I've playtested against a ZTPS deck with gothitelle like 50 times literally. The games have gone about 50/50 because there is so much tech room in ZTPS and my friend found a combination of techs that are hard to play around. He can donk me, he can take advantage of bad starts (as can i), or if those don't work his techs make the matchup difficult. The techs he added also don't hurt his percentage of first turn donk. Not sure if it's BDIF, but I think any deck at this point can win a tournament based on build and what you face. Well-built Reshiram and Zekrom deck variants are BD(ecks)IF in my opinion.

What would these techs be?
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[cabd]

What would these techs be?
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My guess is bellsprout or magby or smoochum.

 

[untitled]

Or Aipom, or Mew/Relicanth. I actually kind of like Mew/Relicanth in the deck. Aipom works too, but I like Mew's retreat cost more.

 

[TrainerEnjay]

magby and blackbelt. I know how to play around black belt . Magby gives me a tougher time, but a lot has to go right for him to be able to make full use of it. His deck also has a surprisingly good late game and it is built well. I still win about half the time, but if ZPST is 50% against its bad matchups it has to be close to BDIF. My tier list would be:
Tyram, ZPST as tier 1
Gothitelle, Yanmega/Magnezone tier 2
Ross, Stage 1s, donphan/dragons, magneboar, mew variants tier 3

 

[Professor Elm]

Blackbelt is the worst tech for Goth that I have ever heard of.

R y'all planning on only playing retarded Goth players? Goth will almost never get ahead on prizes if it can help it. So banking on Blackbelt is just stupid.

Magby CAN work if they don't play switch, but once again a good Goth player will likely be able to handle a Magby.
Smoochum is alright if it stays asleep every turn, but once again that's very situational.
Bellsprout is just dumb. U drag up something, they twins for the DCE/Switch, bellsprout gets knocked out.

I'd much rather take consistency and take the autoloss to Goth.

 

[psychup2034]

Blackbelt is the worst tech for Goth that I have ever heard of.

R y'all planning on only playing retarded Goth players? Goth will almost never get ahead on prizes if it can help it. So banking on Blackbelt is just stupid.

Magby CAN work if they don't play switch, but once again a good Goth player will likely be able to handle a Magby.
Smoochum is alright if it stays asleep every turn, but once again that's very situational.
Bellsprout is just dumb. U drag up something, they twins for the DCE/Switch, bellsprout gets knocked out.

I'd much rather take consistency and take the autoloss to Goth.

Generally agreed, although I would have put it a little nicer... Black Belt is a really gimmicky card as a counter to Gothitelle. If your opponent is set up and knows it's coming, he/she won't let you have the condition to activate it. If Gothitelle isn't set up, then you don't need Black Belt anyway.

The strategy of moving energy onto something useless with Aipom and Smoochum is very susceptible to Shaymin. A couple decent Goth lists I have seen use the Jirachi/Shaymin combo. It's key to remember that once Gothitelle sets up, its hard to break the lock if the Gothitelle player doesn't make a misplay. For most non-trainer locking decks in the format, one of the best strategies for beating Gothitelle is just to outspeed it.

 

[BRUTE]

To all the people saying that good players don't go to battle roads, how about nationals? Zps, without Tornadus so therefore not as good because of the lack of more starters and good Donphan counter, took both Mexican and Canadian Nationals. I'm jussayin'.

 

[N plasma]

One great thing is even if you face the bad matchup you can still hope for the donk!
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[calisupra2nr]

Blackbelt is the worst tech for Goth that I have ever heard of.

R y'all planning on only playing retarded Goth players? Goth will almost never get ahead on prizes if it can help it. So banking on Blackbelt is just stupid.

Magby CAN work if they don't play switch, but once again a good Goth player will likely be able to handle a Magby.
Smoochum is alright if it stays asleep every turn, but once again that's very situational.
Bellsprout is just dumb. U drag up something, they twins for the DCE/Switch, bellsprout gets knocked out.

I'd much rather take consistency and take the autoloss to Goth.

lolwut? I suppose the Gothitelle will just stall all game until time is called and then just lose in prizes?

/sarcasm

They will absolutely go up in prizes near the mid-end game at which time you can save a blackbelt to OHKO gothitelle. Honestly ZPST can afford to tech in a single copy of a card and still be very consistent.. I am wondering how you have the right to call people stupid

 

[cabd]

lolwut? I suppose the Gothitelle will just stall all game until time is called and then just lose in prizes?

/sarcasm

They will absolutely go up in prizes near the mid-end game at which time you can save a blackbelt to OHKO gothitelle. Honestly ZPST can afford to tech in a single copy of a card and still be very consistent.. I am wondering how you have the right to call people stupid

...

Once gothitelle has the lock, they'll feed you prized by using reuniclus to knock out things on their bench. That way they can use twins, and you can't use black belt.

 

[calisupra2nr]

...

Once gothitelle has the lock, they'll feed you prized by using reuniclus to knock out things on their bench. That way they can use twins, and you can't use black belt.

hmm.. there is some truth to this but, and this a big but;

you are assuming too much. perhaps the biggest assumption you are making is that goth players play to beat black belts, when in reality most decks don't run it and most goth players dont play against it.

 

[Ignatious]

hmm.. there is some truth to this but, and this a big but;

you are assuming too much. perhaps the biggest assumption you are making is that goth players play to beat black belts, when in reality most decks don't run it and most goth players dont play against it.

There is no reason for them to not do this They can play Twins and stop an opponent from playing Black Belt all at once. If your bold post in truth only has value against foolish players, I would say it was your post that's foolish.