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Author
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Topic: Kage Ha! no Kaeri! -The Shadow Blade Returns!
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted July 16, 2003 07:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Dark Llama:
[QBWhy is that? What separates Suicune from any other Pokeon w/ free retreat?[/QB]
I've seen other posts by you and I know you aren't this ignorant of the cards. So what gives? Folks are trying to help and you are insulting them. I agree that if you request no <insert card here> then anyone really trying to help should respect that - but in the case of Elm and Cleffa you KNOW by now that people are going to question your sanity.
I think a good rule would be for people to put whether their decks are fun or competitive. This would allow mechanics to weight the options.
Do not be surprised when fixes for this deck gravitate towards an AQ Scizor/Furret deck. Main reason is that is the best Scizor deck and the Dark Scizor doesn't really have much to recommend it.
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-=>* ScythKing *<=-
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There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
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posted July 16, 2003 09:37 PM
OK, I see you're right.. I have insulted just about everything, but that's because I couldn't conceptualize cards like Electabuzz and Suicune in a mostly grass deck, with no energy or anything to support them. I confused which Suicune everyone was reccomending, I was looking at the holo one, but now that Isee they meant the other one, I understand that.
Now, here is the deck currently:
4x Scyther (2 Promo, 2 AQ, Swift)
2x Scizor (AQ)
2x Sentret (Disc)
2x Furret (AQ)
3x Cleffa (Promo)
2x Bill
2x Trader
3x Bill's Maintanance
4x Juggler
4x Dbl Gust
4x Switch
4x Forest Guardian
2x Time Shard
2x Super Scoop Up
3x Potion
2x Grass Cube 01
4x Metal
11x Grass
once again, NO Elm or Cleffa. I choose not to use the same cards as most everyone else.
I'm also thinking of taking 2 cards out for 2 Oracle, what 2 cards look least useable here?
Also - One thing I've noticed is Scizor's Poke BOdy. It takes out half of the reason the SR Beedril is good, since Scizor can't be poisoned!
[ July 16, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: The Dark Llama ]
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Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
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Gengar094
Member
Member # 11307
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posted July 17, 2003 03:50 AM
You NEED rainbow energy with Scizor to be able to do max. damage. Take out some grass (you don't need grass really at all) for rainbow energy, warp energy and maybe recycle.
BTW, the Buzz is to be used with the rainbow energy, so put a buzz in your deck aswell (For reasons see my other posts).
Edit: quote:
once again, NO Elm or Cleffa. I choose not to use the same cards as most everyone else.
Why are you playing Scizor then?
[ July 17, 2003, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: Gengar094 ]
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Fake Cards
Forum
Worms Armageddon Clan: SNU
From: Raamsdonksveer, Netherlands | Registered: Apr 2001
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The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
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posted July 17, 2003 11:56 AM
LOL, good point. I just don't like seeing Elm or Cleffa over and over again.
BTW - I took out the SUper Scoop Up for 2 Oracle.
One more question, I'm certain you mean the Base set Electabuzz, but isn't that Tyrogue bait?
[ July 17, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: The Dark Llama ]
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Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
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MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
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posted July 17, 2003 03:21 PM
Electabuzz isnt needed all you need is scizor and something for fire. Id suggest mantine and for it to work all you need is 2 water 4 rainbow cause you have furret trust me its tried and tested
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
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Pidgeotto Trainer
Member
Member # 133447
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posted July 17, 2003 03:22 PM
I know no Elm but I think Copycat & Oak's Research tend to be more effective than Bill's Maintenance or Juggler. Especially if you switch some Grass for Rainbow. BTW, Scizor can be good w/out Rainbow but as long as your not playing another attacker you might as well use it.
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Co-Leader & longest member of Northgate Wizards Pokemon League-Seattle
52nd-Fan Appreciation Tournament 3-1 Blackout theme deck. 2-2-1 Kabutops/Scizor/Furret
10th-Feb Seattle SBZ
10th-May Seattle SBZ
Ash: "Pidgeotto Gust attack."
Pidgeotto: "Pidgeoooo"
Team Rocket: "Looks like Team Rocket's blasting off again." (ding)
Pidgeotto & I challenge YOU
From: Seattle, WA (Home of the 2002 World Championship | Registered: Mar 2003
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hobbs
Member # 92
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posted July 17, 2003 08:49 PM
Pretty solid deck given the constraints; just a few suggestions.
Time Shard only allows you to return basic energy from the knocked-out Pokemon, so I fail to see its point in the deck.
Also, if your not going to have Cleffa/Elm, then, IMHO, your card drawing should look like this:
4 Copycat/Professor Oak's Research
4 Bill/Bill's Maintance
3 Pokemon Trader
3 Oracle
I took out the Juggler and Forest Guardian because in your deck discarding energy has no additional benefit to the deck; also, the Oracle/Bill combo is a bit more reliable than Forest Guardian and it gets you an additional card.
Next, I'd add in some Rainbow Energy, Power/Energy Charge and a Town Volunteers because it'll help if a Scizor is KO'd.
Lastly, some sort of healing cards like Gold Berry or Focus Band are desperatly needed; especially if you expect to win the game on two Scizors. They will be needed to last more than their 80 HP can carry them.
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"Oh I love your magazine, my favorite section is 'How To Increase Your Word Power'. That thing is really, really, really... good." ~Homer Simpson
From: Mesa, AZ | Registered: Feb 2001
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The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
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posted July 17, 2003 09:45 PM
OK, I did it. I took out 2 Time Shard and a Grass Energy and added Suicune and 2 more Bill. I plan on getting 4 Rainbow in there ASAP, and since I have no Town Volunteers, I have to use my Time Capsules.
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Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted July 18, 2003 10:13 AM
Well, I think Elm is a waste for any deck that Elmis automatically bad when more than 1/3 of your deck is Trainers, and is questionable unless you run less than 1/4 Trainers. There are a handful of decks were Elm will work. Overall however, why use it? Let's assume you have a 20-20-20 spread for you deck? Unless you manage to topdeck like one basic and 6 Trainers for you opening hand, you will end up with 2-3 Trainers per 7 card draw by Elm. Thus, it is likely that 2 cards from you draw will effectively be dead in your hand. Then there is just the normal problem of a)you may only play one enrgy per turn, if you do this before you Elm, then any Energy your draw is dead in hand. This means that 2/3 of your draw, about 4-5 cards, are dead in your hand. Finally, with Pokemon, basics need space on the bench, and evo's need a lower stage to evolve from that had been in play a turn. See why I am less than thrilled with Elm? Now, I must confess, this is just based on the idea that if roughly a third of your deck is Trainers, a random sampling of it will contain the cards in proportion to what they are in the deck. Similarly, I prizes can help maintain or completely throw off this model. One would expect prizes to be 2-2-2 in a 20-20-20 deck. If tehy are a bit off, this can change things. Of course, since they can be off in any direction, it should 'average" out. An actual mathematical model will take a lot of time, and if someone wants to make one, go ahead and I'll look at it. There will be times when you draw no Trainers, just as there will be times when you draw all Trainers. These should average out. So, going by the above, in an "equilateral" deck (a term I use for decks with the the 20-20-20 split), Elm is a poor choice. Now, in a deck that is higher on Trainers, it gets even worse. Imagine a deck that is Trainer heavy. Let's go with 30 Trainers, and an even 15-15 split on for Pokemon and Energies. That is a bit less than the deck we are supposed to be fixing has. Now, an average draw will be be about 3 Trainers, two energy, and two Pokemon. Again, even in ideal circumstances, we have a lot of "waste". If you use your energy attachemnt before Elming, we end up with two cards we might be able to use. This is why I prefer Copycat, Desert Shaman, and Professor Oak's Research. Copycat is a bit random, but I count it as a replacement for Bill, so its definetly earns its keep. POR replaces Elm: I draw two less, but I can use any non-suppoter Trainers. In an equilateral deck, even if we assume 10 supporters, thats only getting one useable card less to ensure you can still make use of Poke-Tools, Pokemon Traders, Double Gusts, and all that other good stuff. Now, factor in oppsoing Copycat's and Desert Shaman. No one here run it for their non-Noccromancer decks? You might want to consider it. SOmtimes setting an opponent back is better than advancing yourself. DS lets you advance slighty to hinder your opponent. How? Well, let's say they just Elmed, drew an evo chain (3 Pokemon), two Trainrs, and two energy. You opponentplays the basics, slaps an energy, and grins at you. Unless your ahnd it perfect, you almsot certainly are better off DSing for 4 new cards a pop: they may get 4 of the 5 cards back, but thats still better than the alternative. Since I find I average a 5 card hand, it doesn;t hurt me too much, particularly since that is before my energy attachment and using evos. It's even better if they just eeeeeeeeked.
So I understand why no Elm, and reccomend he not use it. Same for Juggler: in a deck with 14 or more basic energy, it's great, but any less and it tends to sit in hand a lot. I have learned that from personal experience One might also try running more of cards they need and less of draw power. You'd be suprised what that does for you (note: not applicable in Unlimited ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif) ).
On a final note, I am wondering if that Suicune ruling is accurate. I assumed Double gust targets the selected Pokemon, so unless its the only thing on a bench, its power won't kick in. Afterall, normally when something is selected, that means you are targeting it, particularly when you select something of someone esles. I'll ahve to look into it more...
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Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
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posted July 18, 2003 10:41 AM
No Elm is a staple in EVERY deck in MF it is a CONSISTANT 7 cards its almost everytime giving you insane card advantage. Dont say theres a reason not to play it =\ Dark Llama just wants to be noticed so he says he doesnt want those cards
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
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Drakeo
Member # 25453
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posted July 18, 2003 12:00 PM
How often do you actually PLAY the game monkeyman?
![[teach]](../tcg/graemlins/teach.gif)
Elm gives you more cards: TRUE
Elm is always better: FALSE
I disagree with otaku's fanatical elm-hating to be honest, but he IS right. 3/3 POR/CC is better. Why? Because you can play POR, get FIVE cards, some trainers you desperately need NOW like focus band or double gust, and actually USE them. Sure, elm gets you two more cards, but if your deck is like 40% trainers, then wouldn't it stand to reason that some of those cards would be trainers you CAN'T USE anyway?
I do prefer elm where I can't fit the 3/3, and don't have 50 million trainers, but c'mon, you have to be reasonable here... They guy is running 32 trainers...You're gonna tell him to use elm? ![[Roll Eyes]](../tcg/rolleyes.gif)
From: Albuquerque, New Mexico | Registered: Jun 2001
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IndigoMaster
Member # 752
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posted July 18, 2003 12:34 PM
I'm sitting here...talking to levi on aim and he shows me this link. I spend 5 minutes having my wizpog pw mailed to me...tring to think up a civil response, but i really cannot think of anything better than
"=/"
From: Atlanta GA | Registered: Feb 2001
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MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
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posted July 18, 2003 12:55 PM
You are obviously looking for something with these search cards. You are looking for a) energy, or b) pokemon. Because that's how you attack, and thus, win the game. So you want to get as many of those cards in your hand.
Elm is simply amazing. It's anti-decking, it gives you SEVEN cards, which nothing else in the game will CONSISTANTLY give you, and you can still play cards afterwards. The only time that COPYCAT or JUGGLER (because Prof Oak's Research is simply A TERRIBLE CARD) would be better is when a) You're looking for a tech card such as Double Gust, or b) when you're pulling off a 2-card combo and you don't want to shuffle back one part of it into your deck. And regardless if you play those two cards, you STILL want 4 Elm because draw consistancy is the number one most important factor in a deck. The main thing that will allow you to win a TOURNAMENT is to get a consistant draw of the right cards EVERY game. That means playing a good ammount of draw, and draw that isn't dependant on any other cards. Lets take a look at what draw cards are dependant on other circumstances:
Bill (You simply draw two)
Prof Oak's Research (shuffle for 5 cards)
Oracle (Put two cards on top of your deck)
Professor Elm (The best draw card in the game)
Bill's influence is so small, it's not worth playing. You're more than likely not going to impact at all. How often are you going to get the card you need in two cards? Not often.
Prof Oak's Reaseach suffers the same fate. You argue against Elm in that if you've played an energy and draw 2 trainers, you only get 4 workable cards. If you've played an energy, and get a supporter with POR, you've now got 3 playable cards in your hand, which makes it worse than Elm. Plus, the card is especially bad early on, when you just want a LOT of cards in your hand to fill it up, you ARE going to be able to play those cards on your next turn.
Oracle shouldn't even count as draw, as your hand size increases by ZERO cards.
Elm is the best draw in the game. It will give you SEVEN NEW CARDS EVERY TIME. There isn't a time when it doesn't. Think about when you want to play draw the most. It's in the first turn of the game. You HAVE to find your main basic, and you HAVE to get set up. Most draw cards are Supporters anyways, so if you play a POR/CC/Jug/PFC, you can't play another one. Comparing Elm to all of those, which one gives you the most cards? ELM! Seven cards trumps all of the other ones, and on the first couple turns, double gust/strength charm/techy trainer cards don't see play. So you want sheer card advantage over your opponent. Elm is what gives you that.
Backing up to my earlier point, most draw cards are supporters. Which means after you play a draw card, you're probably done! But not with Elm. Juggler+Elm and Copycat+Elm allows you to search through a SERIOUS portion of your deck on the first couple turns, allowing you to search for the pokemon you need to WIN THE GAME. Trainers are there to find and assist your pokemon, and to disrupt your opponents. But using these trainers won't matter if you don't have your own pokemon out, which is why Elm is so good.
Juggler and Copycat are the only draw cards that can TOUCH Elm, POR is trash. Juggler is amazing in Typhlosion and Gatr-Sect decks, because it turns a disadvantage of the card into an advantage, making it a 7-card draw for you. The reason it's not better is because it's dependant on how many water you have in hand, making it inconsistant. Copycat is also good, since it can draw even MORE than Elm, but suffers the same inconsistancy drawback.
Elm is PURE consistancy. If you play it you get 7 cards every time, and you're going to play it in the turn you need the cards the most- the first one. The no-trainer drawback is also less painful during these turns as well. You can simply play everything in your hand, then Elm. You're most likely looking for Pokemon, so if you get your basic the first turn, you really can't do much but wait until the next turn to evolve. Drop your basic, then play Elm, and wait to evolve next turn.
Or you could simply not listen to any logic whatsoever. To believe me, all you have to do is look at every decklist from the ECSTS, WCSTS, Worlds, Origins, GenCon, every SBZ, every QT and every local league tournament filled with randoms and you will see that ALL of the best decks at these events ran FOUR Elm. The deck has been the best draw card since it was released in Neo Genesis. If you don't believe that it was and is the best draw card, tell my why every deck that wins, regardless of that deck's theme, runs four of them.
Elm is the best draw card in the game right now.
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
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The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
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posted July 18, 2003 02:46 PM
Maybe it was good before, but we all know Genesis is going to rotated out someday, so why not prepare for it and be ready to use an alternative far before that happens. I used to use Elm, but I found it rarely helped at all, same with Cleffa. It's just waste of time and cards.. I say again, monkeyman, I don't seek "attention" by not wanting to play Elm/ Cleffa, but rather try and inspire others to think of better ways to do things. Oracle/Bill is the best combo right now. Why? Oracle gets ANY 2 cards from your deck, put them on top. Bill grabs them. Elm gets you 7 random cards from your deck, now explain to me where getting exactly what you want is less important than getting random stuff?(which runs the chance, btw, of not getting anything useful)
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
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Pidgeotto Trainer
Member
Member # 133447
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posted July 18, 2003 03:41 PM
I agree mostly with Monkeyman. Elm/Copycat are the BEST card-drawers out there. I would say Elm is the best card in Modified just because Copycat doesn't always work. 95%+ of winning decks will be using Elm/Copycat. Elm gets you that 7 cards every time & it can be played after Oak's Research/Copycat. 1 thing I disagree with is Oak's Research is good. I use 4 Elm 3 Copycat & 1 Oak's Research. My friend uses more Oak Search. Against some decks/situations you need that Oak's Research. For me Copycat averages 5-6 cards so use it more than Oak.
If you want to be creative & not use Elm go ahead. You CAN win w/ Copy/Oak 3/3, but if you want the Best, use Elm. It is a small improvement in my mind but Elm IS better.
BTW Elm will be around for quite some time because of the Best Promo. (Thank You Wizards) ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif)
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Co-Leader & longest member of Northgate Wizards Pokemon League-Seattle
52nd-Fan Appreciation Tournament 3-1 Blackout theme deck. 2-2-1 Kabutops/Scizor/Furret
10th-Feb Seattle SBZ
10th-May Seattle SBZ
Ash: "Pidgeotto Gust attack."
Pidgeotto: "Pidgeoooo"
Team Rocket: "Looks like Team Rocket's blasting off again." (ding)
Pidgeotto & I challenge YOU
From: Seattle, WA (Home of the 2002 World Championship | Registered: Mar 2003
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MonkeyMan8889
Member
Member # 51034
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posted July 18, 2003 03:45 PM
In themselves Bill or oracle alone cant compete with elm, but saying that ORACLE BILL > Elm isnt even viable because thats a combo I mean if YOU get to say that Copycat for 6 and Elm for 7 is better =\
Everything you are drawing isnt random to a extent I mean everything exlcuding energy is some form of an option you can choose. Elm can even grab the things you wanted from the Oracle Bill without the fraction of the cost.
JUST because elm is going to be rotated out some time doesnt mean YOU should drop it from your deck because at that time half the rest of your deck wont be legal either.
[ July 18, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: MonkeyMan8889 ]
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
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Prime
Member
Member # 102940
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posted July 18, 2003 05:00 PM
I dont like anything that I do not attack with. While it is active, you do no damage to your opponent and they get a free prize.
I like Dark Scizor. Takes to long to power up? Not really. On the AQ scizor, you put steel and rainbow, but on this, you put dark and steel. Same chances of getting both too.
The thing I don't like about cleffa or elm is that it takes your hand away. So what if it gives you a new one, it still stops trainers for that turn, and takes away anything good that was in your last hand. Not using them isn't stupid, because you can survive without them.
I'm not good with deck fixes, but I will try.
Pokemon:
2x Scyther (Promo)
2x Scyther (AQ, D-09)
3x Dark Scizor (Dest)
3x Cleffa (Promo)
Trainers:
4x Switch
3x Potion
3x Gold Berry(moo-moo milk if you dont like GB)
3x Super Scoop Up (to save Spec. Energy)
2x Metal Cube 01
1x Grass Cube 01
2x Bill
2x The Boss's Way
2x Rocket's Hideout
3x Bill's Maintenance
2x Juggler
2x Oracle
1x Traveling Salesman (gets TMs)
Energy
12x Grass
4x Metal
4x Darkness
I took out the AQ scizor becuase I think that you might get the AQ scizor at the wrong time, like when you only have dark energy. I then put in one more grass. I changed Forest Guardian to oracle because you have promo cleffa in there which works perfectly with it. and also bill. I kinda took out some supporters because you had alot, and even more with the changes I made. See, you can tell I aint so good at fixing it. Potion wasn't enough healing alone, so I put in some Gold Berry, but if you didn't want that, I thought to use moo-moo milk. I added a few more super scoop up because it is a flip so it might not always work.
I am sorry I screwed up your deck ;D
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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
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Articjedi
Member # 342
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posted July 18, 2003 08:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MonkeyMan8889:
In themselves Bill or oracle alone cant compete with elm, but saying that ORACLE BILL > Elm isnt even viable because thats a combo I mean if YOU get to say that Copycat for 6 and Elm for 7 is better =\
Everything you are drawing isnt random to a extent I mean everything exlcuding energy is some form of an option you can choose. Elm can even grab the things you wanted from the Oracle Bill without the fraction of the cost.
JUST because elm is going to be rotated out some time doesnt mean YOU should drop it from your deck because at that time half the rest of your deck wont be legal either.
Ummm, I think Elm is a best promo, so it probably won't be rotated for some time. Unless Nintendo bans all of WOTC cards and in that case, your deck is already screwed.
The problem with oracle/bill is actually getting both of them in your hand at the same time to use the combo, in that case, you're already going to have to have some decent card drawing to get these two cards in your hand.
Even in this deck I would suggest elm and cleffa, because even though the trainer count is fairly high, getting a new hand, outweighs waiting a turn. Its not like there is any hand disruption like in unlimited. Not using elm means that that hand that you just used all of your trainers on is now useless, essentially, you ran out of gas. Cars don't run without gas, and pokemon decks don't run without drawing. Elm is the best drawing card in the game simply because of quanity. However since you are so dead set against using them, well...
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Thank you WOTC for a wonderful pokemon journey.
From: Seattle, Washington | Registered: Feb 2001
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The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434
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posted July 18, 2003 09:17 PM
ok, maybe I'll try them out. I plan on getting 3 Elm soon anyway. Happy?
--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7
Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0
Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.
YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8
My have/want list
One Sentence Add-On!
From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
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Prime
Member
Member # 102940
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posted July 18, 2003 10:21 PM
I wouldn't play elm if you dont want to. I plan on not playing elm in the future. The reason I don't see myself playing it is because of what it does. I mean, why do people like desert shaman? Because if your opponent has a good hand, it can make them shuffle it back in and then draw a brand new hand of 4. Well what do you think elm does? It does that on your. It is actually really hand-destructive in itself. Not only does it not help keep those good cards and add on to it, but it also stops the use of trainers. And with decks that are around 1/3 to 2/5 filled with trainers, it makes sence that shutting down 2/5 of your deck is stupid.
I rather use copycat than elm. Sure it is hand destructive, but it doesn't stop trainers and that is the biggey. There is still good drawing with bill, juggler and other cards.
Heck I like professor birch better. Atleast it adds to your hand and no shuffle in the cards you need.
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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
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Articjedi
Member # 342
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posted July 18, 2003 11:41 PM
Elm doesn't exactly render those cards useless. I think you can wait a turn for that gold berry or a focus band, if not, you're losing already, and the chances of drawing those cards with anything else is dim. Isn't the plan to use up your hand and when you have nothing else useful for the turn, you elm. You don't use elm for the cards you get now, you use it for the next turn, and if you get that crucial evolution, more power to you. If not, you have a nice new hand, then you can play that devastating double gust, probably a double gust that you didn't have in your previous hand.
Considering most of the other cards are supporters, the rule keeps you from using another supporter on your turn, you'll most likely draw another one, so that's another useless card.
Birch? A new, improved mail from bill. Also not legal in current Modified. Maximum card advantage is 5. And that's if you didn't have anything else in your hand, and if that, you probably wasted a lot of cards to get that advantage.
Bill's advantage is a single card, you spend the bill to get two cards. It won't make much of a difference, when you can draw so many cards.
Copycat is completely dependent on your opponent, who has probably wasted his or her hand already. you won't get much maybe 4 cards, unless they used cleffa, that's when it's ideal, but how often does that opportunity come up?
Juggler is a built-in combo, you need two energy cards in your hand in order to use it. Even then, the card advantage is 2 at best, three cards for five. Unless you turn the disadvantage into an advantage, like gatrsect, then it isn't worth it, you'll spend the only energy in your hand to get other cards maybe one or two energy, most likely one.
Desert Shaman. The only reason to use this is if you've established board control. Great for noctowl because you can disrupt their hand further, bad because you only draw four. Card advantage 3.
Oak's Research essentially gives you an advantage of four. You'll probably draw two trainers, most likely another drawing supporter that you can't use.
Bill's maintenance suffers the same problem as bill. Not enough to make a difference.
The copycat/bill problem has no calculated advantage. You'll improve a better hand, provided you get the cards, those two cards are probably the evolution line, or some combination of crucial trainer and energy. You'll still need energy for that line, and trainers to support it. In fast fire, it's your combination of macargo, entei, or slugma, or a couple of energy for good measure. SMF gets one of it's evolution lines. Late game you'll get a double gust for the final prize, which you'll probably draw anyway with a copycat, or god forbid, and elm.
Professor Elm is probably the best. Card advantage 6, so you'll get something good. If you're talking about what you're going to use, then and advantage of 3 or 4, even then you can still wait a turn, and unlike, cleffa, you still get to attack. The best part is that it isn't a supporter, so if you draw it after a copycat or whatever you draw with, you can elm for another hand.
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Thank you WOTC for a wonderful pokemon journey.
From: Seattle, Washington | Registered: Feb 2001
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Prime
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posted July 19, 2003 12:26 AM
Many times, you will not be able to waste the cards in your hand so you can elm. And even if you do elm, and get the same cards, you cannot use them now(if they are trainers).
Elm shuffles the hand, the hand that had cards you needed, into your deck. Sure you get 7 cards, but heck you can't play any trainers and I can bet you won't get half of the cards back that you shuffled back in. Well considering this isn't late game and you are low in your deck.
Alot of the time, you have to choose to wait a turn or elm because you have good cards in your hand that you rather not shuffle back. The good thing about bill is that you can add more cards to your hand, without a cost or without shuffling any cards back into your deck.
Elm is like a long shot. You could keep your current hand and add on to it with bills and such or you could shuffle your hand back in and have a chance to get back a few of those cards you needed.
I am not saying Elm is bad. I am just saying that with the major use of trainers in this game, you cannot use a card that disables all of them. Whatever you get from elm, if it be a trainer, you still have to wait a turn to use. Many times I have elmed just to get a full hand of trainers. So what happens next turn? OHKO and I lose. Before I could play the GB or the FB. Before I could play the switch to save my active and win the close game.
Reason I would play oak over elm is because oak doesn't shut off trainers. And with that you can keep your turn going and keep playing trainers. But Oak isn't legal so yeah. Bill helps get those few cards you need to keep your trainers going like copycat or desert shaman. Shaman is like a elm too, but it shuffles your opponents hand too.
Desert Shaman is a hand destructive card, so one that does the same effect on you isn't? Oh its so different, you get 3 more cards. Oh wait, Elm is worse, it shuts off your trainer use. Would you play a trainer that shuffled your oppoent's hand into their deck and made them draw 7 cards and then they couldn't play any trainers until the end of their next turn? I would.
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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
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MonkeyMan8889
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posted July 19, 2003 01:37 AM
Yes I am happy, you will soon realize that elm and cleffa arent so bad. I mean all you gotta is give it a try and youll see they are neccesities (sp?)
And Prime if you cant understand the logic above your a hopeless cause =/
PS dont TRY comparing oak to elm because this is a MF chat
[ July 19, 2003, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: MonkeyMan8889 ]
From: Xerox box behind Albertsons. | Registered: Nov 2001
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Prime
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posted July 19, 2003 02:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MonkeyMan8889:
Yes I am happy, you will soon realize that elm and cleffa arent so bad. I mean all you gotta is give it a try and youll see they are neccesities (sp?)
And Prime if you cant understand the logic above your a hopeless cause =/
PS dont TRY comparing oak to elm because this is a MF chat
Me a lost cause? Who is not looking at the other side of the puzzle here? I said that Elm was good and all, but also gave the bad things about it. You just seem to think that Elm is all and mighty. Nothing can be wrong about a card that gets you 7 cards for only one card. But it has the biggest cost of all trainers. No trainer use for the rest of the turn. Think about it. You shut down 1/3 of your deck by your own doings.
Eh, well I'll stop argueing. Any idiot could see the downsides to elm.
Who knows till you try it though. I can guarantee that you never did. People form new archtypes by experiementing.
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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gengar094
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posted July 19, 2003 07:08 AM
Who said you have to use up your whole hand in the turn of the Elm. 4-5 cards are not useful on THAT turn, but might win you the game the NEXT turn. Forward planning anyone?
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From: Raamsdonksveer, Netherlands | Registered: Apr 2001
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