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Author
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Topic: 10 and under got shafted at SBZ
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Johnny Blaze
Member # 234
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posted February 15, 2003 07:10 PM
Let me start out by saying that I thought from the get go that this age modified swiss thingy is for the birds. At smaller scaled events most of the times there are not enough people to play so everyone plays regardless of age. But when stakes are high like a 1st time ever Super Battle Zone then I feel that a younger division is definately needed. Where do we draw the line?
I say start with the 10 and under.
I attended the MA SBZ and it was well run and judged by none other than BJJ and Marril2K. The attendance was around 44 participants. I would say that 1/3 of the players were 10 and under. The majority were 11-14 and then 15+. Who made up the majority of our Top 8? You guessed it 15+. 1st place was an adult so he got the 15+ award and 2nd place went to a 14 year old. Not one of the 10 and under got a chance to play in the Top 8. I also saw like at least 4 times during the day that a child was paired off against thier parent. My son is 10 and under and has won trips to Worlds and San Diego in the past but is not quite up to par with playing against a barrage of adults and teenagers all day long. It did not make it fun for him and he got frustrated at times. Of course its always great to see a 10 and under beat the pants off of an adult too. But for the most part we need to keep a seperate division for 10 and under. The Sportsmanship award did go 10 and under kid.
What has other people's SBZ looked like in terms of 10 and under making the Top 8? How about attendance? Were they well attended.
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From: Clifton Park, N.Y. | Registered: Feb 2001
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SlimeyGrimey
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Member # 92882
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posted February 15, 2003 07:25 PM
well, I think one 10- player made top 8, but he got creamed by the 15+ player he was up against. I'd say there were about 7 10- at the SBZ out of 26 I believe.
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From: Edmonton,AB,Canada | Registered: Jul 2002
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TheAnswer3
Member # 57796
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posted February 15, 2003 07:27 PM
At the Michigan GC a 9 year old made Ten and under with a 5-1-1 record. There were only two 15+ players in T8 and there were..
A Nine year old, a 11 year old, a 12 year old, 2 13 year olds and 1 14 year old.
The 9 year old ended up making T4 and the 14 Year old ended up taking the trophy. I wouldnt say the 10- got shafted. They only become better players by beating us 15+ players which many do consistantly.
TheAnswer3
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From: Michigan | Registered: Jan 2002
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Magby Guru
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Member # 55228
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posted February 15, 2003 07:32 PM
Good point johnny. i see where your coming from. but another thing that you ahve to remember is that if the challnege series are stilla round then the 10- still has a major event to play in, leaving them with a ton to lok forward to. I think these events were designed just to apease the entire audinece in general. Of course mayb a system could be worked out, im not sure. Anyways, im sorry to hear about nikc, hes sucha cool kid! And conradulations to you for making 5th place! thats really good, im looking forward to seeing you again son! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) !!!
-MG
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From: falls Curch VA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted February 15, 2003 08:59 PM
You're absolutely right. Age modified doesn't cut it. During an earlier post about age modified, it was apparent to me that most people did not really know how age modified works. Daniel and I have played in age modifed--and played against each other in the 2nd round! If I lost the first round and he won (especially back when he was the youngest and I was the oldest player), we would get paired up. No one gets it. The program for it sticks. It could be fixed--if someone understood how it actually worked.
At Syracuse, they broke the tournament into two groups: there was a 14 and under and a 15 plus tournmanent. But, then again, they are total rogues in Syracuse. Younger kids had a chance in a 14 and under group. At least, they didn't have to play against people twice their age. Daniel, who just turned 11, won the event. One of the 8 year olds made the playoffs. Actually, 8 of the 10 players made the playoffs.
Definitely, the 10 and under crowd got shafted. No doubt about it.
I don't see why they couldn't break the groups up--at the discretion of the TO into 2 or 3 groups based on attendance.
It was really not that much harder to run two events simultaneously than to run one event with twice the participants.
Also, by combining the age groups--they created a situation where a child in the 14 and under group could go undefeated against his or her own age group--then lose to an older person in the playoffs--and not get the trophy because another 14 and under child gets a better draw in the playoffs.
In the end, if there are 2 trophies--there should be 2 events.
[ February 15, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Crobat1 ]
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Crobat2:
Winner, Syracuse SBZ, Feb, 2003
22nd Place, 10 and Under, World's, August, 2002
Winner, Friday's Open Modified Event, Origins, July, 2002
Winner, 10 and Under Gym Challenge, Milford, May, 2002
Crobat1:
Winner, Albany SBZ, May, 2003
9th Place: Professor's Tournament at World's, August 2002
Top 4, Theme Deck Tournament at World's, August, 2002
Top 8, Unlimited Side Event at World's (Undefeated in Main Draw), August, 2002
From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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GymLeaderPhil
Member # 455
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posted February 15, 2003 09:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Crobat1:
At Syracuse, they broke the tournament into two groups: there was a 14 and under and a 15 plus tournmanent. But, then again, they are total rogues in Syracuse. Younger kids had a chance in a 14 and under group. At least, they didn't have to play against people twice their age. Daniel, who just turned 11, won the event. One of the 8 year olds made the playoffs. Actually, 8 of the 10 players made the playoffs.
Are you saying that the Super Battlezone at Syracuse did not follow the instructions given to them from Wizards of the Coast to run ONE tournament? Do you know that this means this organizer will never be trusted to organize primere events again? Guess they do now...
Battlezone Tournaments are all Age Modified Swiss. Most DCI Sanctioned Pokemon Tournaments use Age Modified Swiss. What is the diffrence?
Under 50 players playing is not a big enough number to split age divisions into seperate tournaments folks. Additionally our older players have missed out on prizes and trips for nearly two years from WotC. Lets just let the older players have some stuff to try play for at a local level. Few from my area who are 15+ get to go to events out of state that also cater to the 15+.
Judging is not a bad thing, it is just the only thing I do now and that becomes boring quick when you get run-over by kids trying to see the parings in your hand or some overprotective parent questions my rulings. No respect, like Rodney Dangerfield ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
-Phil
[ February 15, 2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: GymLeaderPhil ]
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From: Where ever the ladies take me | Registered: Feb 2001
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Big_Pappa_Poke
Member # 3495
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posted February 15, 2003 09:52 PM
The problem is with the DCI reporter's pairing program. It works kind of like chess, where players are ranked first by score, then by rating. The DCI reporter ranks first by score, then by age group.
Unfortunately, after the DCI reporter pairs the top group of scores, if there is a player left over at the end (youngest group), it pairs that player with a player at the top of the next lower score (often oldest group). The pairing algorithm needs to be fixed.
However, unless there are separate tournaments for each age group, pairings between age groups are inevitable and (unfortunately) necessary for a fair result.
We DO need three age groups, BUT I'm sure WotC could not support Pokemon as it does if they put three age groups into all of its tournaments.
Maybe it should have been 12- and 13+?
Just a thought.
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From: Portsmouth, OH, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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The Dark Llama
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Member # 75434
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posted February 15, 2003 10:30 PM
Yeah... our SBZ was a bunch of 14- at first, but the 15+ dominated the Top 8, then two dropped out and some more 14- got to play there too.
Sportsmanship award went to a 10- but the top 3 prizes were all teens between 15 and 18
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From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002
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The Mystery Thing
Member # 171
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posted February 15, 2003 10:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SlimeyGrimey:
well, I think one 10- player made top 8, but he got creamed by the 15+ player he was up against. I'd say there were about 7 10- at the SBZ out of 26 I believe.
yeah, 7 sounds about right. we ended up with two 15+ in the finals, as well as having one of the two that lost in the semi finals be 15+ (and one 11-14.)
alas, the ups and downs of single elim... 4 decicives, 1 indecicive, and 1 intentional draw later i had first place to my lonesome going into the T8 and got the pants whipped off of me by the 8th place kid... darn kingdras and pokemon centers @_@
all in all, it was a very well run event i think... at least, the one in st. albert was. hats off to the staff at mission fun and games in st. albert for jamming 28 of us into the space all while running the whole thing as efficient as could be. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted February 15, 2003 11:13 PM
Due to lack of 15+ players and the fact that 3 of our top 4 players couldn't attend due to other commitments, the 10-under in Colorado was well represented in our top 8 finals. We had three 10-under players in the top 8. Only one player made it to the top 4, but that player went on to win it all and beat the current #1 player in Colorado, Bobby Derian, a 15+ player. Congrats to Breton Brander who won with a semi-rogue Golem/baby deck (see the decklist in the Tournaments section).
I agree that a 10-under division would have been nice. But we were lucky enough in Colorado to have them well-represented in the top 8.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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annisarich
Member # 105838
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posted February 16, 2003 01:16 AM
I brought two 8 year olds. There were about 6-8 10 and under at the Detroit/MI SBZ.
IMHO there should be a group for "Under10 and over 30 as one group." Damg Nation playing against 12- 15 year olds is unfair to us parent aged folks.
My son had a blast, so did his friend. They were asking about the next event on the drive home.
They didnt have a chance at this event because of the high level of competition. WOW. This Detroit event had some heavy hitters. A good handful of Worlds players and a Worlds winner or so.
There was a trophy for the winner, trophy for the best younger player (-14?) and then a sportsman ship award. There could have been a certificate for the younger kids possibly maybe for something like " Best finish 10 and under" etc and go about three 5 kids deep , just a certificate, cheap to make and it would geek kids out to get something. I do that in Cub Scouts. At that age small things matter and they can all go home happy!
That aside a great event. We will be at the next one if at all possible. ![[Bounce]](graemlins/jump.gif)
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From: A2 MI | Registered: Sep 2002
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted February 16, 2003 04:48 AM
Well, my own 7 year old caught some of this too.
I had finished early in a couple of my matches, so I went to watch him play. Since there were very few young kids there, he was paired with a 10- player only in his first round. After winning that, he went on to play older teens and adults.
Some of them treated him very well.
Most of his matches had crowds of onlookers who wanted to see whether 'that little kid can beat our buddy'. In at least one case, that crowd made loud comments, and the opponent kept trying to rush my son. This confused and upset him, and so he played even slower, crying and saying "I can't think!" He was a total wreck afterward.
My son is a good player, but there is no way he can go toe-to-toe with older people who have been T8 at multiple premiere events. On the other hand, I think it was a great learning experience for him, and made him a better player.
In the end, he said he had a lot of fun anyway... largely because there was one other 7 year old there, and they had a blast playing together after they had each lost their own games.
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From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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Johnny Blaze
Member # 234
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posted February 16, 2003 04:58 AM
quote:
At that age small things matter and they can all go home happy!-annisarch
Anni- I totally agree with you. My son was like I didnt even win one booster pack. So I gave him all the boosters that I won which was a total of 6. Unfortunately T.J.'s ran out of Aquapolis and I couldnt buy more. Aquapolis was given out for prizes though.
So it sounds like the tourneys that alot of 15+ didnt play the 10 and under were well represented. Of course the 11-14 age group was well represented overall, and now I truly believe that this is the level of players that competition is fierce and they may just be the best players overall. Of course there are exceptions but it still looks that for O.P. the 11-14 age division is the most popular.
Crobat1 - Congrats to Danny for winning the 14 and under. Wow so they ran 2 seperate tournaments? What was the attendance like?
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From: Clifton Park, N.Y. | Registered: Feb 2001
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted February 16, 2003 04:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Blaze:
Let me start out by saying that I thought from the get go that this age modified swiss thingy is for the birds.
Well I agree but don't really see any other way to handle it. Big Pappa Poke suggests a 12- and 13+ split and that's probably the most reasonable thing I've heard yet.
At the Atlanta SBZ there were a substantial number of 10-. My son was the only 10- made it to T8 and was eliminated 1st round. I'd have to say that 15+ dominated but we have some darn good players around this part of the country
BTW - Professor Mariah was put in the unenviable position of going head-to-head with her daughter Maria for 1st place! Mariah gets the group hug award for forfeiting so her daughter got 1st and they took home both the Senior AND Junior trophies! Hopefully IndigoMaster will post a report.
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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DarkcrobatsR4me
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Member # 71131
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posted February 16, 2003 05:22 AM
Yea...... At my SBZ in Syracuse there were 2 age groups-14&under and 15+. It was fair over here but i guess it wasnt by you guys. Altered States is prolly going to lose their privelage for running any more pokemon tournies and this is the reason-They had 2 different tournies, and it was run under unlimited format and they did that cuz it was posted on their site. Most of the 14- players had better points than i did cuz i wasnt well prepared for unlimited.
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From: Buffalo,NY | Registered: Mar 2002
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Darkask2
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Member # 30668
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posted February 16, 2003 06:38 AM
John, i have to agree with you. At Milford I played against three 10 and unders. The first one Eeeeeeeked against a baby without flipping first turn, prize swap penalty. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) One of the others was playing with a Ho-Oh deck that made me feel guilty to beat. I really don't like playing against 10 year olds, it makes me feel guilty if they are unexperienced and I beat them. Of course, I felt there was a bigger problem, but I'll mention that in another post.
[ February 16, 2003, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Darkask2 ]
From: Altamont NY | Registered: Jul 2001
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KYDAD
Member # 30575
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posted February 16, 2003 07:38 AM
In Lexington I thought one of if not the best player was 10. He played a pretty good Entei/Charizard deck. He beat at least 1 Kingdra and only lost to a Light Goldduck when he had trouble getting started. In his last round destroyed an adult psychic deck. He fininshed 2nd overall.
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From: Crestwood, KY, US | Registered: Jul 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted February 16, 2003 08:18 AM
We WERE NOT HAPPY with how are SBZ was being planned.
2 tourneys: one 14 and under and one 15+
WHY?
25 max each... I alone can have 20+ players at a tourney... THERE WAS NOT going to be enough room for players I KNOW. SO how were they going to accomodate those I did not know and were going to join us play?
THe 14 and under ran smoothly. AND YES their decks WOULD have been crushed by 15+ decks, BUT not all. IT comes with the territory.
THey enjoyed it. IT WAS NOT done because *oooh 14 and under will be crushed by 15+* but it had some consideration BUT this location JUST did not have the space for 50 players.
THEY barely, BARELY accomodated 37 15+ players... *phew*
IT was a grueling MARATHON of a tourney.
IN HINDSIGHT, it worked well. Clearly the 14 and under had their match ups and own prizes. THEY WERE HAPPY.
BUT FINALLY, wasn't there some recognition for the 15+ players?
14 and under WILL ALWAYS *cough* have Pokemon's support...
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lacy
Member # 43928
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posted February 16, 2003 08:31 AM
Splitting it into 13+ and 12- is an option, but for events like this I don't know. I don't really think 50 or less people is enough to do a three way split of age groups. In Atlanta everything seemed to even out pretty well for Top 8. It seems like 14- and 15+ were the bigger groups, I don't think there were really that many 10-. Wotc can't please us all, and by doing this age-modified swiss it gave everyone a decent chance to make Top 8.
At Gym Challenges 15+ didn't get to win a trip, 10- got that chance. I wouldn't say 10- have been shafted at all, in the bigger picture. They had a chance at winning the Junior trophy as well. And due to the fewer number of 10- that I saw, I'd say it was fair.
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From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Sep 2001
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Apolonia
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Member # 83163
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posted February 16, 2003 02:45 PM
Today i run a tournament and found out that idiot DCI program was pairing kids of the age of 7 against playes of 14 year old.
What i did, i worked hard for 45 minutes and opened 3 separate tournaments. Took a while to put everything in de computer again.
We paired the 2nd round manual because of this.
I did had prices for every group. We were even playing with 4 groups. New players unlimited, 10- 11-14, 15+ all limted.
This was no Battlezone just a tournament.
It's not fair to let players with an agedifference (read thinkdifference) play against each other. They will back out because of those things. That's why we even run a starters unlimited tournament at the same time.
Now at the end of the day i had 44 happy people who played a game against equal players.
The player who won the Starters tournament has to play in the limited section at the next tournament. This way all the newbees have the change to win and will be kept motivated.
Sorry for Wizards but we want to enjoy the game, all of us. And if this will apply in not having SBZ no problem, keep it. We are having fun this way.
For the records i had 12 kids playing starters unlimited. 10 Kids playing 10 and under limited, 10 kids playing 11-14 and 12 people playing 15+.
And they all had a great day.
[ February 16, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Apolonia ]
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From: Netherlands | Registered: May 2002
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted February 16, 2003 02:51 PM
SO We don't want 10 and under to endure the tourney environment?
I think what some SBZ locations did with prize support and raffles, and feel good items was comendable.
BUT the Tourney itself? WE knew it WOULD be ONE tourney *if run by WotC's standards*
Mentally ALL players should have been prepared for that.
Deck help, tourney/game prepping, etc.
Isn't this the difference between BZ and league?
Hopefully it is a MOTIVATION to improve their game play and NOT give up.
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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Apolonia
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Member # 83163
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posted February 16, 2003 03:16 PM
And because of this Wizards Standards this game is almost dead overhere.
First we loose league in the middle of the year, Support for "helpers" never heard of that.
I remember something about older players (15+) were to competative and that's why they were not having their Stadium Challenge.
About that there were a lot of things going on, on this board.
But suprise now there is Battlezone, doesn't that really sounds competative and is going to be warzone between younger players and older ones.
You can't prepare a 7 year old kid to compare with a 14 year one, otherwise they were in 1 class at school too.
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From: Netherlands | Registered: May 2002
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted February 16, 2003 03:17 PM
The first 3 or 4 tournaments that Daniel played in as a 7 year old were all age limited.
I accept (and endorse) WOTC's decision to offer prize support for 15+. That is a long overdue response to a sense of being neglected. I even accept that prize limitations meant that there would be only two age groups.
But, there was no need to make it worse by making the entire group play in one tournament.
I know an 8 year old whose mom drove him 75 miles to play in his first real DCI tournament this weekend. And because Syracuse chose to divide the tournament into two groups--at least he got to play the entire tournament with kids 14 and under. He won 2 of his 5 matches--made it to the playoffs--lost in the first round of the playoffs--but went away with an increased wish to improve his game.
What would have been the value of having him play some of his matches against grown-ups?
Kids have more fun playing kids. It's as simple as that.
[ February 16, 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Crobat1 ]
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Bilbo Baggins: "Every worm has its weakness."
Crobat2:
Winner, Syracuse SBZ, Feb, 2003
22nd Place, 10 and Under, World's, August, 2002
Winner, Friday's Open Modified Event, Origins, July, 2002
Winner, 10 and Under Gym Challenge, Milford, May, 2002
Crobat1:
Winner, Albany SBZ, May, 2003
9th Place: Professor's Tournament at World's, August 2002
Top 4, Theme Deck Tournament at World's, August, 2002
Top 8, Unlimited Side Event at World's (Undefeated in Main Draw), August, 2002
From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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Johnny Blaze
Member # 234
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posted February 16, 2003 05:28 PM
quote:
At Gym Challenges 15+ didn't get to win a trip, 10- got that chance. I wouldn't say 10- have been shafted at all, in the bigger picture. They had a chance at winning the Junior trophy as well. And due to the fewer number of 10- that I saw, I'd say it was fair.
Lacy - We know and respect now that 15+ do not get trips. In fact there has been some specualtion that 14 and under will no longer have trips either. Like I said it is merely speculation at this point but it would seem that there will be just regional champs. Meaning a East Coast tourney, West Coast, and Central tourney to decide regional champions. We'll see what Hasbro has in store for us. Im sure though that the Wizards staff have much more in store for us. I cant commend enough what MTM and DMTM has done to keep this game alive and kicking.
To get back on point, it was more of the case that 11-14 year olds won the Jr. Trophy than the 10 and unders. In our SBZ case, it was an Adult vs. a 14 yr. old in the finals so both won their respective trophies.
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MTM vs. Johnny Blaze at the MBI2
From: Clifton Park, N.Y. | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted February 16, 2003 06:38 PM
Ok.
KIds play kids.
BUT couldn't they also learn strategties from OLDER more experienced players?
Couldn't the older player strike up a conversation and make the game interesting?
As long as older players are forthcoming and engaging THEY could teach and mentor thees YOUNGER players in the SKILL of playing in COMPETITIVE tourneys.
THAT should be a goal of us older players... to WIN but also be genial competitors and teachers of the game.
I know OLDER players who will ofer help and tips so that the YOUNGER player can improve their deck building & playing ability.
Tourneys CAN'T all be fun... someone has to lose... BUT the lessons learned? Those coulde be invaluable.
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