One Side of the AZ States issue(now with both sides post 117)

[mfgoodsale]

We need more love in these world. I read through these posts. The first important point for eeryone to realize is "THE REASON THEY WERE LATE DOESN'T MATTER". It makes it so easy to get on a high horse when you were late because you needed to get someones medicine. But it doesn;t matter, the bottom line is you were late. I have been late becasue I had to jump into a river to save a drowning child. I have been late becasue an orphanige was burning down and I had to save the children. One time I was late because a passenger went into labor and I had to quickly deliver the baby by C-section.
And everytime I am late I get no sympathy from any of the judges, and they always give me a game loss. Yes, they should have given you a game loss and not a disqulaification. But don;t be too hard on them for making that one mistake in Judgement. You made a mistake in being late, they made a mistake in game loss vvs disqualification. Once I make a mistake in life(being late), I notice that others tend to make mistakes too. So why don;t you apolgize for being late, and they can apologize for DQ versus game loss. Everyone makes mistakes.

UI see those people getting to tournaments 2 hours early and sitting around. Godd for them. They will not have any problems with First round losses are DQ's. Let them sit there. i prefer to roll up with just a few minutes to spare. And I will suffer the consequences anmd not beatdown everyone around me for those consequences.

But most of all, I love how everyone hear talks about promoting the game. I loe this gaem. And it is not just to promote the game but also forgive and forget and apologize and make the Pokemon world a better place.

 

[BLiZzArD]

'SotG'?

what about the SotG of every other player who DID manage to get there on time?

why should they continue to make the effort to be up early and leave in plenty of time to arrive during registration if ultimately it doesn't matter as 'exceptions' will be made?

'mom

you have made my point for me up until this point what you describe is exactly what happened this wasn't the 1st time someone was late to an event when this rule was in effect but it was the 1st time it was enforced. Like SteveP posted earlier the Tier Lvl should have no effect on this ruling how were we going to disrupt the integrity of this event that is the only basis that can be used to make this ruling.

BLiZz

 

[Prime]

Wow a story like this really makes thoes of us who have good PTO's realize how turely fortunant we are.

And how truly fortunant AZ is too. Their PTO does a great service to their area too.

This isn't a case of a rogue PTO. Get your facts straight. Read both sides of the story before making a comment.

 

[SteveP]

Patricia "drew a line in the sand" after seeing people arrive late to her tourneys. Ken and crew just happened to be "next in line."

Also, this was NOT a DQ penalty, so Ken and Co. are all still in good standing.

If nothing else, Ken has raised a valid issue that I'm sure will be discussed at the next PTO meeting.

Awareness will inspire promptness.

 

[Mama_Schutte]

One of the reasons that we travel to AZ to play, is that they go by the book (Chrisbo, Doreen, Kim Cali. you guys too). They are very consistent and don't deviate from the rules/regs. Once a person gives small permissions, respect is loss. Even the tourney in the same town I live in, We always arrive a min. of a hour before close of reg. Finally someone has the balls to close the registration on time. For example, remember Riverside City Tournament? We'll we got there 90 minutes before close of reg. after a drive of 1 1/2 hours. Then have to sit and wait for who? you for an hour and even then your deck list was not even written out. This is not the first time you were late and were waited for. I guess being who you are does'nt have the benifits anymore. This should be a lesson to all. Get there early and plan ahead. I was looking forward to playing against Chad, but I will wait until Cali. LOL. In fact, this was'nt a big issue at the time of the tourney. Most people did not know this even happened. Anyways... BTW. If you ever need a ride to be on time, just ask.

 

[BLiZzArD]

One of the reasons that we travel to AZ to play, is that they go by the book (Chrisbo, Doreen, Kim Cali. you guys too). They are very consistent and don't deviate from the rules/regs. Once a person gives small permissions, respect is loss. Even the tourney in the same town I live in, We always arrive a min. of a hour before close of reg. Finally someone has the balls to close the registration on time. For example, remember Riverside City Tournament? We'll we got there 90 minutes before close of reg. after a drive of 1 1/2 hours. Then have to sit and wait for who? you for an hour and even then your deck list was not even written out. This is not the first time you were late and were waited for. I guess being who you are does'nt have the benifits anymore. This should be a lesson to all. Get there early and plan ahead. I was looking forward to playing against Chad, but I will wait until Cali. LOL. In fact, this was'nt a big issue at the time of the tourney. Most people did not know this even happened. Anyways... BTW. If you ever need a ride to be on time, just ask.

You are very correct I was late to Riverside and Told Matt to start without me I was completely lost and admit that I spoke with the organizer several times and asked him not to hold the tournament for me. he did it was his choice and I wasn't an hour late I was 30 minutes late but I had nothing to do with the decision to hold the event. I'm sorry you had to wait I would have gladly taken the 1st round lose. As for my deck list my intention was to fill it out when I got there on time which we both know wasn't the case. I filled out my deck list between rounds as requested of me by the organizer.

As for AZ tournaments I am never late in fact I'm usually way early being the husband or close friend of the HJ tends to make that the issue. The precedent was set all throughout this tournament season that the warning had no teeth warnings and 1st round losses were given every time someone was late. Once again I apologize for being late it was my fault but how was I going to disrupt the integrity of this event? Also you mentioned most people didn't even know this happened why is that because we didn't come in there and make a huge issue of it we respected the event enough not to try to cause any commotion. I don't need a ride but I would like the money you owe me.

I'll even say that maybe as a "skilled" player it could be perceived that entering the tournament would have some kind of effect but what about my 14 year old daughter who is in last place in AZ BTW how is she going to cause an ill effect what about the other 2 players that showed up after us both new to the game how were they an ill effect.

BLiZz

 

[ryanvergel]

So, again, why weren't these 7 individuals allowed to register as a round one loss?

The point is that the PTO willingly denied them access to play, knowing full well how dedicated these players are, and how far they traveled, and what they went through to get to the event.

I still don't understand why a PTO would not enter them in as a r1 loss. The reasoning behind that decision was not explained, and likely cannot be explained. It was a bad move, and ruined the weekend for an entire group of people. Why? So that the PTO could "make an example?" Come on. This is a joke.

This entire thread is a joke. Are you all really defending a PTO who rejected players because they were a few minutes late? Sure, the PTO has the RIGHT to do so- but that doesn't make it RIGHT to do so. This was a bad decision, plain and simple.

I thought it was a big issue. I was three time zones away and hear about it the morning of. This is a huge deal. Players were rejected that didn't have to be. And there has been no real justification for doing it yet.

 

[SteveP]

...Once again I apologize for being late it was my fault but how was I going to disrupt the integrity of this event?...

It might not have caused any disruption, but according to Patricia's post, it "might" have.

...Everyone basis there choices off their past experiences; we have had players in the past entering tournaments late, delaying tournaments or gaming the event. Because of these past experiences we needed to impose a cut off time...

It was a judgement call.

Personally, I don't see how arriving late is a "gaming" tactic, but I can certainly see it causing a disruption (ie., the dang-crashing tournament software when adding late arrivals).

The stress-level for PTOs is far-greater than judging, at least from what I've seen PTO Dwayne (here in CO) and PTO Andrea (from UT) go through. Late arrivals, regardless of the reasons, valid or not, just aggrevates that stress. In a sense, Patricia "snapped" and said, "enough is enough." Should she have "put her foot down?" That's the million-dollar question.

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So, again, why weren't these 7 individuals allowed to register as a round one loss?

The point is that the PTO willingly denied them access to play, knowing full well how dedicated these players are, and how far they traveled, and what they went through to get to the event.

I still don't understand why a PTO would not enter them in as a r1 loss. The reasoning behind that decision was not explained, and likely cannot be explained. It was a bad move, and ruined the weekend for an entire group of people. Why? So that the PTO could "make an example?" Come on. This is a joke.

This entire thread is a joke. Are you all really defending a PTO who rejected players because they were a few minutes late? Sure, the PTO has the RIGHT to do so- but that doesn't make it RIGHT to do so. This was a bad decision, plain and simple.

I thought it was a big issue. I was three time zones away and hear about it the morning of. This is a huge deal. Players were rejected that didn't have to be. And there has been no real justification for doing it yet.

I will defend the PTO, because I've personally seen late arrivals cause disruptions. Ken's nearly-on-time arrival probably wouldn't have caused a disruption, but what if it did? It's a catch-22 for the PTO.

 

[Jaeger]

And how truly fortunant AZ is too. Their PTO does a great service to their area too.

This isn't a case of a rogue PTO. Get your facts straight. Read both sides of the story before making a comment.

I don't think she is a red face paint PTO, or a bad one. I do think she made a bad call by not issueing a round 1 loss and letting them play. She obivously has a lot of friends/colleges on these boards willing to defend her, there is also alot of people who are calling her a bad PTO. She obivously has done good things as a PTO to have people so loyal to her. But even everybody who will defend her to the death has to admit 3 mins late=no play is a little harsh. Expecially considering who was late, they weren't some colloge kids who went out drinking Friday night and over slept. They were well respected members of the pokemon community who this was not a common occurance. Like I said before I think she is a good PTO who made a bad call. And I think to many people are attacking/defending the person and not the issue.

Hopefully this will cause POP to set clear cut rules about when it is approite to issue a game loss and when it is approiate to completely deny entry into a tournament. To avoid this sort of situation in the future.

 

[ryanvergel]

It might not have caused any disruption, but according to Patricia's post, it "might" have.

It was a judgement call.

Personally, I don't see how arriving late is a "gaming" tactic, but I can certainly see it causing a disruption (ie., the dang-crashing tournament software when adding late arrivals).

The stress-level for PTOs is far-greater than judging, at least from what I've seen PTO Dwayne (here in CO) and PTO Andrea (from UT) go through. Late arrivals, regardless of the reasons, valid or not, just aggrevates that stress. In a sense, Patricia "snapped" and said, "enough is enough." Should she have "put her foot down?" That's the million-dollar question.

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I will defend the PTO, because I've personally seen late arrivals cause disruptions. Ken's nearly-on-time arrival probably wouldn't have caused a disruption, but what if it did? It's a catch-22 for the PTO.

The rules state that the PTO only has the right to reject players if they pose a threat to the integrity of the event. If they do not post a threat to the integrity of the event, then the PTO does not have said right.

I would like to see some justification that people arriving 3 minutes late would cause the event's integrity to be diminished. How would allowing dedicated players, dedicated judges, and people who have traveled many many hours away into the event degrade its integrity?

You don't have to deckcheck them, simply enter the POP IDs (already in the system for most if not all of these players) and give them a round 1 loss if you desire. Adding ~10 people into an event, none of whom have a history of tardiness, and only a history of respect and SotG, could only BOOST the integrity of the event.

I see no justification for the PTO's actions, so I said it was an abuse of power. Unless the PTO has a real case for how these individuals would cause a degradation of integrity for the event, then the PTO should not have done what she did.

 

[The Ralts]

I will defend the PTO, because I've personally seen late arrivals cause disruptions. Ken's nearly-on-time arrival probably wouldn't have caused a disruption, but what if it did? It's a catch-22 for the PTO.

I don't think a 'what-if' quite justifies turning away 9 players.
And why was it so hard to just have them sit around until the first round was done and everthing was worked out before entering them in the tournament?

 

[Godzfirefly]

@Ryanvergil: You keep saying 'deck-list checks are optional,' but let's face it. If the event had been running deck checks on every player up to that point (all 100+ of them) and the 5-9 (i keep seeing different numbers) late people don't have to get deck checked just because they're late, that would make me question the integrity of the staff running the event and the players who showed up late. Noone wants that.

And, at these large events, deck-list checks at the beginning of an event are certainly helpful to making sure the event runs smoothly later in the day.

 

[ryanvergel]

@Ryanvergil: You keep saying 'deck-list checks are optional,' but let's face it. If the event had been running deck checks on every player up to that point (all 100+ of them) and the 5-9 (i keep seeing different numbers) late people don't have to get deck checked just because they're late, that would make me question the integrity of the staff running the event and the players who showed up late. Noone wants that.

And, at these large events, deck-list checks at the beginning of an event are certainly helpful to making sure the event runs smoothly later in the day.

Deck checks help the players by making sure their lists match their physical decks, that each card is notated correctly, and that the sleeves are in proper condition. It is done as a benefit to the players. If the late individuals don't receive a benefit (having their decks checked) how does that degrade the integrity of the event?

Deck checks are entirely optional. Not giving some people a deck check doesn't diminish integrity, it merely means that the players registering late don't have a safety net should they write a card down wrong, etc. If they do something incorrectly, the problem may result in a DQ or card substitution later.

So, again, where is the justification for this action of rejecting players? Having 9 people no do a deck check won't alter the event's integrity at all- it just means the late players don't have a safety net.

It's not that

late people don't have to get deck checked just because they're late

like you say, NO PLAYER HAS TO GET DECK CHECKED. Deck checks are a benefit to the individual players, and if a late player doesn't receive that courtesy benefit, how does that detract from the integrity of the event?

All these lame attempts at justifying this PTO's actions just makes me disgusted. These people drove from all over and were 3 minutes late because of an uncontrollable situation, and were rejected to serve as some glorious example to not show up late. The PTO messed up and should be held accountable. The PTO violated spirit of the game in the very least, and obviously abused her rights by rejecting people without justification as to how the event's integrity would be degraded.

There can't be issues of gamesmanship for showing up late- we've shown why it's disadvantageous to arrive with a R1 loss and attempt to win. So where is the justification?

Ken and his crew were crucified to tell others not to be late. Now the PTO needs to justify such an action, and she has not been able to. She should be given her share of justice too, possibly removing her from her position. I would never let a PTO of mine reject honest, respectable players to serve as some petty example. Her actions are inexcusable and degraded the game.

If any one person was degrading the event's integrity it was the PTO herself!

 

[SteveP]

I don't think a 'what-if' quite justifies turning away 9 players.
And why was it so hard to just have them sit around until the first round was done and everthing was worked out before entering them in the tournament?

The "what if" is VERY valid, because according to the PTO, late arrivals caused disruptions in the past.

 

[yoyofsho16]

Well, clearly this whole situation is causing a lot more hassling and trouble for the PTO (if she has seen all of this) than letting in less than 10 players would have.

 

[The Ralts]

The "what if" is VERY valid, because according to the PTO, late arrivals caused disruptions in the past.

Past. Sometimes. In the past.
Did it happen every single time a player was late?
Is that the excuse for not letting 9 players in? After driving for 8 or so hours?
I can't think of a circumstance when a what-if would ever be a valid excuse for not letting that many players in the tournament. So a few times some disruption was caused when entering late players? I'm pretty sure that all those players who weren't allowed in would have gladly waited a half hour or something to not cause a disruption.
From what I've read, it doesn't seem like any of those players have tried to cause disruptions in the past, and what about the new kids who came? Seems like some new players, and their parents, who now might have a bad outlook on the game and the people who run tournaments. Not a good thing to do.

 

[ApachePrime]

Ken and his crew were crucified to tell others not to be late. Now the PTO needs to justify such an action, and she has not been able to. She should be given her share of justice too, possibly removing her from her position. I would never let a PTO of mine reject honest, respectable players to serve as some petty example. Her actions are inexcusable and degraded the game.

If any one person was degrading the event's integrity it was the PTO herself!

Ryan, I don't know if it needs to go this far. Outrage is possibly a step beyond where this needs to be handled. The PTO made a mistake in response to a mistake. Two wrongs do not make a right, and I don't think Blizz wants this PTO to be removed from her position. In fact, being the reasonable guy he is, I think an apology is completely called for. I also think POP should look into clarifying this rule in the next PTO meeting.

 

[SteveP]

...All these lame attempts at justifying this PTO's actions just makes me disgusted. These people drove from all over and were 3 minutes late because of an uncontrollable situation, and were rejected to serve as some glorious example to not show up late. The PTO messed up and should be held accountable. The PTO violated spirit of the game in the very least, and obviously abused her rights by rejecting people without justification as to how the event's integrity would be degraded.
...
Ken and his crew were crucified to tell others not to be late. Now the PTO needs to justify such an action, and she has not been able to. She should be given her share of justice too, possibly removing her from her position. I would never let a PTO of mine reject honest, respectable players to serve as some petty example. Her actions are inexcusable and degraded the game.

If any one person was degrading the event's integrity it was the PTO herself!

Wow! Extreme!

Did the PTO single-out and crucify Ken? Unless there's some kind of enmity between the two, I highly doubt it.

Was he "made an example of?" Possibly, but I doubt that was Patricia's intent.

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Past. Sometimes. In the past.
Did it happen every single time a player was late?
Is that the excuse for not letting 9 players in? After driving for 8 or so hours?
I can't think of a circumstance when a what-if would ever be a valid excuse for not letting that many players in the tournament. So a few times some disruption was caused when entering late players? ..,

Patricia is not some kind of seer.

Last year at US Nats, when the player-limit-cap was exceeded, POP adjusted. There were many top-notch staff there to help alleviate the disruption. If that adjustment had NOT gone as smooth as it did, I'm sure we'd have a different view of how well US Nats was run last year.

Patricia will take her "lumps" for this judgement call. Other PTOs might have done something differently, but that doesn't make it right or wrong, just debate-able.

 

[Jaeger]

Ryan had friends that were in that van so of cousre he mad thats why he is taking it so personally.

 

[Ice'Cold]

If we believe the same is necessary in this case, we will update the policy, one way or another and PTOs will have a specific rule to follow in these cases, but will lose the ability to be flexible, even if flexibility seems appropriate.

Hope that helps.

Thank you,
Prof Dave

All I still see is bashing and nothing constructive on this thread. Patricia has made it clear in her post that she did not have all the information. Turning people around (regardless of who they are) is one thing but I know she would make an exception for a medical condition. Why did she not enter the players with the round 1 loss I have no idea. Adding players into an event during the 40 minutes that the rest of the "on-time" players were playing is completely reasonable had I been a player in the event, I would not have minded postponing the tournament even 20 or 30 for a group of people who spent hours travelling here to be able to play in at all.

I don't know about the rest of you, but for me this is a game and I play it to have a good time, and seeing something horrible like this happen to other players would have taken away from my experience as well.

To all the arguments that getting a round one loss might give you some type of advantage, you are foolish and even suggesting such reflects your utter lack of knowledge.

So where can we go from here, how can the existing floor rules policy be changed to make it more "fair" for players who show up late to an event. Should a PTO/TO be required to use all means necessary to let these players into the event, even with a round one loss? The wording would be very important because these rules would effect not only medium sized events like states but also nationals?

I had the poor experience (my fault, forgot my badge in the hotel and had to run back and get it) of getting in line for nationals late a few years back. Fortunately for me (and other late players) the evet was delayed due to technical issues and Dave was kind enough NOT to give us a round one loss. Nationals have gotten much smoother over the years and I suspect this is not the case nowadays. Delays on a large scale play a much bigger role.

We also have to take timing into consideration. Is the event starting very early? No PTO wants to be there till Midnight watching the masters finals go on, so every second an event is delayed counts. Would entering these players late cause a "significant delay in the event?" I really don't belive so unless you had, you know, over 9000 players (or something rediculous)show up late for the event. Round one takes a good 45 minutes (granted you have to be entering round results during this time as well)

In the end the power is ALWAYS going to be in the hands of the PTO, and people POP entrust with running their events smoothly. The head judge of Indiana states I went to made an intresting statement last saturday, something to the effect of "All of my calls are the final call, so even if I make a wrong decision it is still the right decision." You don't have to agree with everything they say but at the end of the day it is going to be their call.