One Side of the AZ States issue(now with both sides post 117)

[Jaeger]

take it to the 'gym, rather than directly to PUI via phone or email afterwards? THAT'S going to 'get things resolved'?

wow...

'mom

This has been a good discussion on Pokemon policy, while some people do seem intent on flaming. There has been quite a few members that have made this an interseting discussion.

 

[Tyerva]

How would you feel if you drove 5 hours and spent probably 20+ dollars per person to be turned down for being 3 mins late.

I'm going to end this; because this is pointless to get through any of you guys.
My last arguement.
I did drive 7-8 Hours.
We spent alot of money
And we were sure to get there ON TIME because of that fact.
=/
Its' not our fault that they didn't bother calling Trish to explain.
Good day.

 

[ryanvergel]

How would you feel if you drove 5 hours and spent probably 20+ dollars per person to be turned down for being 3 mins late.

More. Think of all the time wasted. They could have been working instead, making more money. They could have been studying, saving time during the week. There were no less than 9 people turned away within 5 minutes of registration closing, without any real justification.

It takes more than "because I can" to justify turning people away from an event. This isn't a Battle Road. These people drove countless hours and invested a lot of time and money and were made into an example. This is wrong.

About whether or not this is appropriate to discuss amongst the community: it certainly is! We deserve to know how poorly our fellow players were treated.

take it to the 'gym, rather than directly to PUI via phone or email afterwards? THAT'S going to 'get things resolved'?

I am pretty sure they tried to contact PUI via phone, and contacting through e-mail afterwards is a poor resolution, and who is to say that an e-mail isn't being written, or has not already been written? Why can't people explore multiple avenues to resolve this situation?

 

[MrMeches]

Have read through all of this and seen both sides of the coin. I may get flamed for posting, but when has that ever stopped me before :thumb:

Here are my insights on the situation and maybe a suggestion for future occurrences, also as Cyrus stated, maybe a vantage point for the Policy of Late Players.

It sounds as Ken owned being late and should be dealt with accordingly on the matter. If it was the PTO's decision to not allow him in, that is at the discretion of the PTO, and right or wrong, should be left at that.

From my vantage point Ken caused the issue of tardiness (owned it though frustrated about it) and not the passengers. The passengers should have been shown some lee-way and allowed to enter the tournament. Some more clarification on this point.... if I am driving my kids to a Tournament it is my obligation for getting them there on time and not theirs. They had no control of the speed, timing, nor decisions I made/make during the journey so therefore should not be denied access to the tournament as that is my burden to bare.

So there you go, don't know if it helps or hinders, but an outsiders perspective on an unfortunate situation.

Hope everyone has a better time at States next weekend!

Still Love everyone in my PokeFamily!

Fish

 

[BLiZzArD]

Pokedaddy you are correct I will quit "fanning the fire"

BLiZz

 

[evil umbreon]

b/c its a top teir 1 or 2 tourny and ya it was a off a little but she says so much not to be late so i think you should listen when she says that so but ya it is a kids game but in tournys like this you have more adults than kids so the adults should know the time be up early enough and get there on time so.

RONG its truly not a top tier tourny worlds nats and regs are tho and until ALL of us a GOOD excuse for her not NOT letting us in im probly not gonna be doing anything poke related for a while.

 

[Scizor]

To all those saying that States is a tier 2 event and that must have something to do with not allowing us to play, think again, seriously. 2-3 years in a row U.S. Nationals has had a massive line for registration prior to the start time, and when I say massive, I'm literally talking about 300-500+ players. The Last Chance Qualifier has also had some pretty huge turnouts with seemingly never-ending lines. Were people given round 1 losses? Rarely. Were they ever not allowed to play? NO! Despite several warnings, nobody has actually been denied entry to a tier 2 event to my knowledge until Arizona States 2009. Unforgiving? Wrong? You be the judge.

I wouldn't wish this upon anybody. I know if it were me, there's no way I could turn away people who were a few minutes late, especially when there was obviously room and I knew I would lose my HJ in the process. That's just me, though. It's not like I know anything about how events work after playing for a decade.

-Chad

 

[yoyofsho16]

RONG its truly not a top tier tourny worlds nats and regs are tho and until ALL of us a GOOD excuse for her not NOT letting us in im probly not gonna be doing anything poke related for a while.

If Regionals is, States is. Nationals, States, and Regionals all have the same K Value, so I don't see why States would be any less top tier.

Plus, last year, there were actually LESS people who came to Regionals than States, by like 2 or 3. So there you have it.

 

[homeofmew]

that's not the point, they knew my kids were competitive players, my 2 boys has won cal states, nev states, regionals in consecutive years...in my opinion they tried and succeeded in getting them a first round loss....in other places they would do registration first, then deck check afterwards or later...that's what is being done at nat'l, worlds, other states and regs
i kept it to myself til this issue came up................................

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:



yes i did and all my selling merchandise.............

Next time don't have them in your car.
It doesn't matter who your kids are new/competitive/ect the judge/to/pto isn't going to care.
Plus it's your choice to play with foreign cards too. And I believe it's pretty underhanded/sketchy behavor not having translations on you at all times KNOWING you have Japanese/ Foriegn cards. I even use translations for casual play.

nats and worlds are different they don't have time to do all preliminary deck checks. Now if I recall you OCULD get your deck checkwed at nats (in which I did)..

Most TOs/PTOs are pretty strict about translations.
I don't blame them since most foreign cards used are Japanese.
sorry you got a r1 loss (or your kids).

Someone here almost had to drop a tournament because he LOST his translations (or they got stolen) you are responsible for all your cards in your deck (and translations) at all times, this is clearly mentioned in the rules.

 

[SteveP]

So, after some further thinking, how can tardiness be used to "game" the system?

1. A first-round loss is different than a tardy-loss. One way, you're docked premier points, the other, not. If you're interested in premier points, going 5-1 with a tardy-loss is better than going 5-1 with a game-loss. High-ranked players who arrive late should automatically raise flags.

2. There's the potential that late arrivals have gotten a scouting report of decks being played in the first round. So, they have an unfair advantage to switch decks/cards at the last minute. IMO, admission or proof of this intent should get you banned.

By NO means am I saying Ken and Co. are guilty of any of the above. But, the possibility to "game" the system exists.

 

[Scizor]

I'm not saying you are accusing of us of gaming the system, Steve, but I thought I'd let everyone know that Josh was the only one even over 1700 (barely) in our car and that we had all of our decklists filled out prior to even arriving. Possibilty of gaming the system? None of us would ever put our reputation on the line for that kind of crap.

 

[SteveP]

I'm not saying you are accusing of us of gaming the system, Steve, but I thought I'd let everyone know that Josh was the only one even over 1700 (barely) in our car and that we had all of our decklists filled out prior to even arriving. Possibilty of gaming the system? None of us would ever put our reputation on the line for that kind of crap.

I have it on good authority that someone, somewhere in the universe once bragged about "gaming" the system. Did they actually do it? My source tells me it probably happened. The "threat level" has been elevated.

Anyway, I'm 99.999% confident Ken is innocent of any such crap.

 

[PokePop]

I'd have to play with the math, but at first glance, a first-round-late-arrival loss is harder to recover from than a first-round-played-match loss (because event tardiness is the first tiebreaker). If that player really wanted to "game" the system smartly, they'd concede/throw the first round match rather than show up late.

So opp-win percentages don't even come into play for tardy players.

Now, regarding how it affects pairings, I'd hope TOM is fixed and does it correctly (based purely on records-first-random-second); otherwise, the issue here is with TOM, not the player.

So yeah Ken, I don't understand that issue -- if indeed, that's Patricia's rationale.

The player would have to win all games AND all X-1's would have to make it into top cut.

 

[JandPDS]

Let it be Ken.

Can't you see that in my first post I was trying to give this thread a way to die out?

Since all your objectives have been met. Please stop flaming the fire. Please.

Its not your decison that this thread die out. I think this was an outrage. Not just the adults but the poor kids aged 11 and 6 who were denied entry to this Pokemon event becuase the PTO had to make a point. Her pride has probably resulted in two kids who will never ever play this game again. Nd they will tell thier firends not to play. Theese two kids coild not control when thier parents got them to the event and to bar them was just inexuesable. Especially when you consider that the event was running one hour behind, So its ok for her to run behind but not anyone esle huh? Stuff happens that life but if I was a few minutes late and the PTO told my 5 year old daughter that she could not particapte in the event she had been looking foreward to for weeks. I would be furious.

Just becuase you have the autority to do something, that does not mean that exercising that authority it the correct thing to do. There was no attempt to ude any judgement. A blaket decison was made and blindly enforced no matter who was hurt. Once she barred the adults from the event, she had to then bar the children. That is the ture tragedy of this stroy. There was not attempt for any empathy on the part of the PTO here and all this uglyness was the result of her being so leaglistic.

It would have been so simple for the late players to have been told that they would have to waite to register once the tournement was underway and they could all enter the event with a 0-1 record. This was the only compassionant thing to do with this situation that occured.

 

[Mewtant]

^ I don't know... this could be a good life lesson for the kids. There are MANY times in life when stuff happens to you that isn't fair, but.... c'mon evryone, say it with me.... life ain't fair! They'll get over it and live to play another day.

I'm not saying I agree with the decision. I probably would have let them play (but I'm a softie and thinks this stuff should be FUN anyway, not so darn strict). But if this happened to MY 5 year old, I would try and have him learn some sort of a lesson from it, not that he should be furious at the unfairness of it all.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[SD PokeMom]

it's MY responsibility as a parent to get my kids where they need to be, WHEN they need to be there.

if i get them there too late, it's not the omg mean!!1! PTO's fault they're upset, it's MINE for not leaving early enough, not reading the website info correctly, not mapquesting the route, stopping at the backed-up starbucks drivethru, whatever.

the TO didn't make my kids cry, *I* did. personal responsibility, what a concept!

'mom

 

[Articjedi]

Okay, we've read both sides, and I still find this absolutely distasteful.

First of all, to all making accusations, or even mentioning the possibility that this particular situation is one of gamesmanship. We're talking about a respected PTO, and we all know that Ken would never do such a thing, why this is being brought up in this thread is completely off topic and needs to be said somewhere else. Because the only conclusion I can make out of anyone posting such is simply a personal attack on the integrity of Blizzard and everyone who was traveling with him. Whatever your intentions of bringing this up are, that's exactly what the perception is. I'd considering starting a new topic toward that end.

Jand's post above summed up most of what I wanted to say. I still don't see what the problem with giving them a first round loss is. Even if Blizzard and his crew didn't want to accept it at least the TO would have made an offer. You could easily have done proper deck checks during the first round and everything would have continued.

 

[SteveP]

Okay, we've read both sides, and I still find this absolutely distasteful.

First of all, to all making accusations, or even mentioning the possibility that this particular situation is one of gamesmanship. We're talking about a respected PTO, and we all know that Ken would never do such a thing, why this is being brought up in this thread is completely off topic and needs to be said somewhere else. Because the only conclusion I can make out of anyone posting such is simply a personal attack on the integrity of Blizzard and everyone who was traveling with him. Whatever your intentions of bringing this up are, that's exactly what the perception is. I'd considering starting a new topic toward that end.

Jand's post above summed up most of what I wanted to say. I still don't see what the problem with giving them a first round loss is. Even if Blizzard and his crew didn't want to accept it at least the TO would have made an offer. You could easily have done proper deck checks during the first round and everything would have continued.

What!? Ken told us the PTO's issue. The late arrival was deemed as a disruption to the integrity of the tournament. Patricia mentioned the same in her response. That's the dispute, and it's being debated here. Bringing those subjects up are EXACTLY on topic. As has been stated, any other rationale would've been put the PTO in-the-wrong.

As inappropriate as it might seem in this situation, the guideline is there to protect the integrity of the tournament. The integrity of the players might be solid, but that doesn't matter sometimes. The rule is there to stop the 0.001% of players who DON'T have integrity.

 

[Agent Kadabra]

Ok, so I'm kinda suprised this thread isn't locked yet.....anyway.....

In my opinion, there is very little left to say about this issue and everyone needs to move on. No offense to ken or anyone else but they should have planned ahead of time to get to the event on time, taking the possibility of wes' medical issues into account as well. Trish did exactly what any PTO should do with the cut off time already passed and as little room that was left for the tournament. Yeah, we had a big venue but there were nearly 100 people there!!

Rules are in place for a reason and they do need to be enforced. I live so far away from Gamer's Inn that I thought my little group was going to be late and if we were denied to be in the tournament....guess what? It was our fault and no one elses. :nonono:

One more thing: If people want to keep debating this (on a rules n' reg. level), make it a thread somewhere else because the point of this thread is done and over with.

 

[siliconmatrix]

I really do not understand why there is such a mess going on about this. There was a precedent set forth by the PTO and she should not waiver in her resolve to uphold such a rule by sway of friend or stranger. The PTO gave a 1hour and 45minute window for people to get in there and get registered. With the gravity of such an event of this you would imagine a responsible adult who is really into this game would plan to arrive at such an event at least an hour early. The PTO doesn't need to explain her actions as much as someone else should explain why the lack time management skills of the player is the PTO's responsibility. This is the largest POP event in the state, the highest level it gets here, I fully understand the need for the PTO to put her foot down and take charge of the event and run it as seriously as it should be. If a person is negligent in their actions to accomplish a task you don't say it failed by way of who created the task. If I got fired from my job because I was late I don't think I'm going to get anywhere by blaming my boss for not just letting it slide.