Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

2009 State of the Game Observations

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IMO somethings very wrong with your structure if you pay that much for tournament without getting more then the prices PUI provides :/ How is it possible that it works out for free everywhere else but in the netherlands :/?

And the moment someone would ask me to pay 5€ for playing a BR where the 1st place prices are worth nothing I'd really say "forget it, keep your tournaments, I wont buy any cards anymore and just play for fun with proxies"
 
IMO somethings very wrong with your structure if you pay that much for tournament without getting more then the prices PUI provides :/ How is it possible that it works out for free everywhere else but in the netherlands :/?

And the moment someone would ask me to pay 5€ for playing a BR where the 1st place prices are worth nothing I'd really say "forget it, keep your tournaments, I wont buy any cards anymore and just play for fun with proxies"

Belgium, France, England, Netherlands, they all pay 5€ a tournament (some even more).
We play because we love to play, but due to the costs (buying cards + pay to play + traveling) we also loose a lot of players.
 
Then I'd seriously rather play for free with printed cards or something like that :/
I mean, where does this money flow if its free in other places? I'd be more then willing to pay 5€/TOurnament but not for our current price structure :/
 
We don't have stores who let you use the space for free.
The money is needed to rent a place to play, simple as that.

In some countries the distributor pays for the rent of space, ours doesn't.
Also some distributors will give product for the judges, ours doesn't.
A lot of times when any of us organizes a Battle Road it's a loss when not enough players show up.
If everybody gets your attitude "it's not worth my time, prizes are not enough" we will end up without Battle Roads.
Is that good? NO
The season will start with Cities in November without Battle Roads, like the did 2 years ago and before.
A gap of 5 months between Nationals and the first premier event, it that the way to go?

Most of us like a long season, and with Battle Road we have it.
So even when it's a loss of money we continue.
That's spirit of game, love of the game.
Thats why I am sick of all that whining about prizes.

Just for one time imagine what happens if POP says, Oh they don't like BR let's stop them.
You will have nothing to do untill november.
If that's what you prefer keep on complaining.
I will not, I like it to much to start playing in September WITH or WITHOUT prizes.
The only thing which could keep me from paying to play, if we have to do game play.
Best of 3, paying 5 Euro is oké. Game play stinks.
 
Just fyi it's not like EVERYTHING in the US is free either. My local store charges for table space during league play for example. That's probably more of a detriment to the kids than tournament fees.

I really like my local store too. This post is in no way an attempt to slam them. Just an example.
 
yah^
i go there too, and my going to league depends on if i can scrounge up 5 extra dollars each week.
it kinda stinks...
 
We don't have stores who let you use the space for free.
The money is needed to rent a place to play, simple as that.

In some countries the distributor pays for the rent of space, ours doesn't.
Also some distributors will give product for the judges, ours doesn't.
A lot of times when any of us organizes a Battle Road it's a loss when not enough players show up.
If everybody gets your attitude "it's not worth my time, prizes are not enough" we will end up without Battle Roads.
Is that good? NO
The season will start with Cities in November without Battle Roads, like the did 2 years ago and before.
A gap of 5 months between Nationals and the first premier event, it that the way to go?

Most of us like a long season, and with Battle Road we have it.
So even when it's a loss of money we continue.
That's spirit of game, love of the game.
Thats why I am sick of all that whining about prizes.

Just for one time imagine what happens if POP says, Oh they don't like BR let's stop them.
You will have nothing to do untill november.
If that's what you prefer keep on complaining.
I will not, I like it to much to start playing in September WITH or WITHOUT prizes.
The only thing which could keep me from paying to play, if we have to do game play.
Best of 3, paying 5 Euro is oké. Game play stinks.

I guess I didnt properly express what I meant.

But I dont think I'd take this kind of treatment from my distributor :/ Because they need you to make this game attractive but they dont give you somethign in return, IMO a distributor should somehow take care off the offical tournaments and at LEAST give support to the judges that work for them.

Its not even the lack of support itself that would annoy me, I can afford 5€ to pay a tournament, and I'm willing to pay it, but if I feel like I'm getting ripped off by a distributor I would refuse to support him anymore. I mean they earn money by selling you printed paper for 5€ or something, i'd AT LEAST expect them to give somethign back in form of tournaments and prices. Its like Absoltrainer (i think it was him xD) said, tournaments are the "payback" of the distributor, what he gives you that you keep on buying colorful paper.

If Pokémon DIDN’T give prizes, almost no one would go. If Pokémon did not hold Nats or Worlds, people would not bother to play the game. A healthy OP is needed to make money. Pokémon HAS to host tournaments and HAS to give incentive, otherwise they will lost players and thus lost money.

Dunno but I wouldnt take this treatment. If you spend that much on BRs you might as well rend a bus and visit us over here in germany. Like this you could show your distributor that you dont agree with what they're doing :/


~~~~


One thing I want to point out is that our distributor over here is great =)
I mean germany is a joke in comparison to the US and they still throw in 6 (pui just pays one flight / country for europe, right?) extra flights and let the top3 of each division go to worlds.

We also had a worlds preparation tournament and they just gave us a price support equal to that of a city championship for this small tournament. Just like that, to support the people that love this game and were going to play at the world champuionship, the "hardcore gamers"

The Amigo guy at worlds 2008 even gave us good luck charms with our names on it...

And now tell me that PUI couldnt afford a bit more price support...

(Amigo :thumb: )
 
Chris, I want to give you a very manly hug.

As for everyone mentioning paying for things.
-Europe, that is a tragedy. I'm so sorry to hear it. People in the US complaining however will likely not lead to PUI completely denying you Battle Roads. Your structure over there is doing the job intrinsicly, I'm sorry.
-$1 Drew? Really? Let's assume each player puts in for the cost of one pack (retail). Those packs then go out in prizes, distributed by age group. Even if that isn't the distribution, I feel like that is a much more realistic scaling.
-VB Grad, my local store is AWESOME. They are happy to see me walk through the door with Diaz even if all we do is sit and play Pokemon there for hours. We don't spend money every time we're there. The store sees letting us use that space (which they have either way) as a way to keep us loyal. Further, the store looks alive with people in it. It seems like your local store is rejecting the business model that I've watched many of my local stores use to succeed. No skin off my nose really, but if you'd like to help them GET IT some more, feel free to PM me. I enjoy healthy positive communities.

Judging nonsense
Vince, maybe its me but you sound really anti-player in some of your posts.
Kettler gets it, everyone would like more pie.
Chris gets it too, more people sharing the same pie doesn't work out. Judging simply doesn't work. If a BR has one judge, maybe two, in my area that means there are probably 2-5 parents interested in judging, plus myself, benlugia, diaz, and thedarktwins. Plus a few others I'm sure you've never heard of.
Whats with the stigma against competitive players who judge? Its economics. Same goes for trying to cater to your judges who will be there at the bigger events. I want to make some comment about striking a balance here, but you clearly can't please everyone. I just want a system in which participants (players, judges, player-judges) can act logically and receive relevant rewards.

Less in tune with Chris's first post, but since people love talking about BRs
DRUM ROLL on redistribution of prizes for BRs problem
If I playtest with someone, and we can possibly avoid going to the same event (provided we are skilled, competent players) we probably will. 1st+4th is less than it was last year. 1st+2nd is less than it was last year. If you're competitive, don't show up to events with your friends or testing partners and profit. This is an attitude logical players will be driven to that is totally against what I imagine the Pokemon creedo to be.
 
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Judging nonsense
Vince, maybe its me but you sound really anti-player in some of your posts.
Kettler gets it, everyone would like more pie.
Chris gets it too, more people sharing the same pie doesn't work out. Judging simply doesn't work. If a BR has one judge, maybe two, in my area that means there are probably 2-5 parents interested in judging, plus myself, benlugia, diaz, and thedarktwins. Plus a few others I'm sure you've never heard of.
Whats with the stigma against competitive players who judge? Its economics. Same goes for trying to cater to your judges who will be there at the bigger events. I want to make some comment about striking a balance here, but you clearly can't please everyone. I just want a system in which participants (players, judges, player-judges) can act logically and receive relevant rewards.

Judge support does not cut into the pie...that comes from the :edited: PTO's own personal pie.

And trust me...there is no PTO or judge in the country that is more on the players side than Vince.
 
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Clay, I've met Vince and he is a great guy. I specifically commented on how I thought he sounded. I'll try to be more clear next time.

Pie in terms of the reward at the end of the day is what everyone wants. Judge support comes from PTOs I think you're trying to say? That's cool. Blizz and Kettler I believe both stated something along the lines of the judges are NOT receiving too much, the players are receiving too little. People talk about Victory Medal, and I really believe we need to start getting the other prize cards that the Japanese receive. It helps add VALUE to Battle Roads. I don't see why it would be much more expensive than printing the same old prize card (victory medal).
 
Judge support does not cut into the pie...that comes from the judges own personal pie.

Which personal pie?
You mean a budget given by POP to a (P)TO. (and from that budget judge support has to be given out but NOT the tournament winner prizes/booster)
or
You mean a PTO has to find a job at (let's say) Walmart, work there for 5 hours to earn $50 and from that $50 he/she is paying a judge at a pokemon tournament?
 
I really believe we need to start getting the other prize cards that the Japanese receive. It helps add VALUE to Battle Roads. I don't see why it would be much more expensive than printing the same old prize card (victory medal).

I'll vote for that
 
People talk about Victory Medal, and I really believe we need to start getting the other prize cards that the Japanese receive. It helps add VALUE to Battle Roads. I don't see why it would be much more expensive than printing the same old prize card (victory medal).


Since Battle Roads are also intended to get new players into the "competitive" scene. I also like the suggestion made by some others.
Why not a BR stamped Claydol or Uxie or Roseanna.
A kind of "players choice" card which is needed in a competitive deck and which are most times the cards new players don't have (or cannot get).

Even when "veteran" players would win such card it's good, because they most likely will trade their "old" claydol/uxie/roseanna away.
There are always "staple" cards who are hard to get, and they don't even have to be foil. (better not, those foils tend to bend to much)
A Battle Road stamp only on them will make them special enough.

2 Battle Roads cycles a season, there will always be more than 2 cards a season who are desired by most (or even all) players.
 
Lia's point about the stamped "staple" cards are very valid. Magic does "Friday Night Magic" stamped copies of popular cards. Seems moderately light on the production costs, and doesn't likely dig into the "casual base"'s desire to buy boosters, as those sales are driven primarily by lvl x's and popular foils, not the competitive Uxie/Claydol/Supporters etc.

There is only one "pie". That is the net budget. PUI can allocate this pie amongst a number of outlets, be it players, judges, etc. We simply need there to be a bigger pie. Even if I do feel that the current pie could be divided up a little better.

NoPoke brings up a very good argument, and NOT being a business major, one I'd like to get more input on from others, opposed to turning this isn't a "players vs judges" war, as I'd love to see us all looked at as "supporters of the game".

What I take your argument as is that your saying PUI willingly took a huge profit loss and overspent in the first few years, hoping that the huge outpouring of resources would work as a jumpstart to invigorate the franchise with full intent to reduce it if successful?

Now, this seems like it isn't unreasonable. I can't say whether that was or was not their intent, I doubt anyone outside of PUI/Nintendo could. What does trouble me with that is a few things.

A.) Pokemon was on it's deathbed. Having played near the game's end, if you told me to guess the odds of whether the game would survive or not, I'd have given it 10 to 1 in favor of dying within 2 years. If you look at the sales, the state of the tcg market, and public perception of Pokemon as a franchise, the odds of revival didn't look GOOD. To risk a huge potential cash hemorrhage when the odds looked that poorly doesn't seem like a wise business move. WotC had nearly killed the game. A strategy such as that seems much more useful to try with a new product in hopes of getting attention, not with a game that had bad stigma attached to it and had been dying a slow death for 2 years prior.

B.) Look at VS. When you cut prize support, you have to be aware that it will have a backlash with player moral.

Even then, one of the arguments I received a lot when talking to people at Worlds ( PokePop as an example ) was that PUI was having a hard time making the argument that Organized Play impacted sales enough. Yet, if the 04-06 "burst" of prize support is to be accepted as a theory, than that would indicate that they DO view OP as a strong way to draw players and thus revenue.

Someone asked if I felt that baseball players are deserving of their salary. Do you know why baseball players are able to be paid as high as they are? Because the people who own teams make enough profit that they are able to pay to get good players. So Team A can give a star pitcher an offer of X dollars. Team B than counteroffers, So the teams of the league can make as high of offers as they want within their profit margins due to competition. If a baseball team couldn't afford it due to the profits they make off of WILLING CONSUMERS, the prices wouldn't be able to get that high. The salary is very high, but they are the best at what they do, so they can fetch top dollar. Would you say that a sculptor charging 50,000 dollars for one sculpture is ridiculous if someone buys it for that much?

Sticking with the baseball analogy, what is happening is that I play for the Cleveland Indians ( Pokemon ) and am offered 3 million to play. I really enjoy playing for the team, and would love to do so. Yet I'm receiving offers from the New York Yankees ( Magic ) to do the same job and get 12 million. Its all about opportunity costs, and I'm sorry, these other TCGs ARE Pokemon's direct competition, you can't expect those who DO put the competition as their primary reason for playing for wanting a more even playing field. I'm not begging for the same prize support, but I don't want to feel like we aren't even getting reasonable offers. And yes, I DO say that per player potential prize support DECREASING while the number of players and sales INCREASE qualifies as not being a "reasonable offer".

As to what ChaosJim said regarding Vince: Vince, whether your trying to or not, your coming off rather one sided on the issue. I fully acknowledge I am as well, and I know neither of us are guilty of this. Its what happens you have something to get defensive over. Ask any number of people, your name, alongside Heidi Craig and the local PTOs John and Laura are the ones I give as outstanding examples of staffing. Its not just something I'll say to your face,
 
Sticking with the baseball analogy, what is happening is that I play for the Cleveland Indians ( Pokemon ) and am offered 3 million to play. I really enjoy playing for the team, and would love to do so. Yet I'm receiving offers from the New York Yankees ( Magic ) to do the same job and get 12 million. Its all about opportunity costs, and I'm sorry, these other TCGs ARE Pokemon's direct competition, you can't expect those who DO put the competition as their primary reason for playing for wanting a more even playing field. I'm not begging for the same prize support, but I don't want to feel like we aren't even getting reasonable offers. And yes, I DO say that per player potential prize support DECREASING while the number of players and sales INCREASE qualifies as not being a "reasonable offer".

An excellent analogy, and one that works on several levels.

Someone playing for the Indians for many years, would likely have an affinity toward the team that would encourage them to stay. I feel like a lot of players, including myself stay in the game partially for this reason.

Also, a job for the some other team might be flat out easier in the same way that winning prize support might be easier in other games with lesser competition.
 
Gradually pulling the money rug out from under the prize support and an unwillingness to increase marketing budgets shows that the company knows people will continue playing the game.

Cards cost very little to produce (15-35 cents per pack I suspect) and markup, even at the distribution level, is probably somewhere between 700% and 1000% per unit. OP is marketing that operates largely on the backs of gracious volunteers and through the distribution of additional marketing materials as prizes. Scholarships are tax write-offs; blocks of rooms are obtained via hotel/venue exclusivity agreements, along with contract fees; but airfare is almost 1:1 expensive.
In business, operations with such good margins and a lack of substantial operating overhead are commonly referred to as cash cows. It's better to play this game for fun.
 
Drrty Byl: So what your saying is, Pokemon knows it can short change players because a majority will still play, but we should simply turn our heads and not even try and change that?

And hey, if they don't want to give full travel allowance to players, don't: But at least put that 1:1 expense into that oh so write-offable scholarship.
 
What I take your argument as is that your saying PUI willingly took a huge profit loss and overspent in the first few years, hoping that the huge outpouring of resources would work as a jumpstart to invigorate the franchise with full intent to reduce it if successful?

I'm not a marketing major either so there is lots of guesswork involved but here is how I think it goes in a touch more detail. There is a marketing budget and the OP side took a disproportionately high slice of that budget in the early years. Disproportionate by size of target market (players vs casual shop purchases). Why invest so heavily in the players? Because the players then become unpaid marketing for your product.

For the most part you don't plan for failure so you don't plan to shrink the budget when expectations aren't met. The plan would be to get sales to the point where the budget is sustainable. Obviously there will have been some one-off specials in amongst the initial spend but I would not typically expect the early "special offers" to be the bulk of the OP budget. Unfortunately there is another factor that could easily distort the early budget.

At the end of the wotc era there were a lot of unhappy customers. Unhappy customers are expensive. Not just because they take extra $$ to convince to return but because while they remain "unhappy" they have a negative influence on the group of customers as a whole. The presence of unhappy customers may have resulted in a chunk of budget being allocated to removing the negative view that unhappy customers have of the brand. This is a one time expense and would be an example of planned reduction in expenditure for future years. For if there are to be future years then there have to be fewer unhappy customers.

I'm not a psychology major either yet it always seems that marketing is more psychology than anything else. Perceptions are more important than reality, which isn't something that sits well with me as an engineering major. It makes calculations and arguement based upon utility or opportunity cost very tricky. Just why does anyone play the national lottery?
 
I read the origional write up about a week ago, but I just now found the time in my schedule to reply. I might be off on what the whole topic is really about, but I'd like to list a few observations I've made post 2009..

1. The International Scene
Well, from what I have gathered there's a bigger distribution of funds going into the International tournament scene which I think is great. Nothing wrong with a little bit of love going elsewhere to keep them playing. They def. contribute to the Pokemon economy.

2. The Battle Roads issue
I just came back to the game this season and back when I played in 2006 this did not even exist. Now, I played in 1 this year and actually thought it was a great idea. Yeah, they spread about the packs a bit this time but the purpose of battle road is to be an entree level event for new players to get a splash into the competitive world. I think the packs are just an added bonus aside from some points to pad the rating.

3. Budget
Let's face it, it's not reasonable to expect the luxuries we have gotten in 2004/2005/2006. The way the World Championship was presented this year, I coulden't even tell a budget difference from past events outside the realm of the celebration dinners we used to get. Sure, trips got cut down too, but the fact Regionals still offers Trip packages really compensates for less trips to Worlds in my opinion. You are given the opportunity to fight for vacation twice a year! Talk about good rewards!

4. Worlds 2010
I will comment on this once the details of the trip distribution and invite structure is announced. Although, it's safe to assume that this will probably fall into the same range as 2007.
 
Some of this response is discussed in the Worlds wrap up thread and I've managed to link them together, but I thought I'd respond. I think Fulop went out of his way to be fair and NOT antagonistic toward PUI and staff. I think that at the minimum - sleeve checks before the tourney is a resonable request, as is the prize support that we already had. Personally, I don't care if the prize support is increased or not, I play mostly for the experience(my son on the other hand likes the trips LOL), but it can be difficult when you have the #1 ranked player in NA and are unable to afford the trip to worlds - we almost didn't make it this year(pass down at Nats) . Hawaii is almost certainly not going to happen invite or not....It's situations like this that make competitive playing difficult - especially when you have always been spoiled with paid trips in the past. I AM NOT COMPLAINING. Please do not misinterpet. I am trying to explain how competitive play is enhanced when the rewards are just enough to make the travel and time worth it. If there was no prize support we would still play the game - we absolutely LOVE it. but our binder would be sketchy and our play would be cut back.....When people say "play for the love of the game" that does not neccessarily include competitive play... I powerlift for fun -- competition on the other had is too much for the rewards..... I guess the point I'm trying to get across here, is that anyone who gets on their high horse and acts as if this is some kind of charity organization and every one should shut up or get out is missing the point.. If the balance between opportunities and rewards are kept reasonable then the game only grows...As far as the judges go, I only applaud them. Their time and energy is always appreciated and deserves the same kind of reward to keep them motivated as the players do.... You can always play for fun.. we don't need OP for that....I think if you polled the majority of players who are doing well at tourneys- they would agree 100%. I'm not rallying for more prize support, but I do feel the original posters comments are worth listening to......Darn you Fulop for starting two threads... I'm so confused...
 
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