SP Hate

[PhadedPhione]

That's not enough to beat an SP teched Gyarados... They OHKO everything for no energy with Mesprit disruption. Luxchomp needs two energy with a bat drop to do the same.

Dialga doesn't beat Vilegar either. With hand disruption and Level down, realistically you get one turn of trainers and need more supporters to set it up.

Pixies?

Lostgar has a Junk Arm engine. Junk Arm can fetch Bubble Coat.

Machamp kills Uxies Better than Uxies kill Machamp. Uxie needs DCE and Premier balls (two unsearchable cards). Honchkrow is facerolled by Machamp Prime.

What if you DON'T topdeck? Game over.

Realistically every deck has answers to SPs. Just because SP has an answer, that doesn't make it a solid counter. That doesn't even make it good.

Dialga does realistically beat Vilegar. More often than not, Vilegar loses to its own inability to draw the correct action cards. I've been Level-Down'ed multiple times in one game and still won. Lostgar was all hype and less results, and with Bubble Coat type cards in your deck, I'm probably winning just because you are drawing that in lieu of action cards that could probably help you win the game. An unanswered Big Daddy Krow will probably roll you. SP doesn't need solid counters so much as you get a weak start and it will punish you.

 

[Kayle]

Let's see what happens if I respond ONLY to the OP...

Seriously. I have seen this EVERYWHERE on here...

WHY does it seem like EVERYONE hates SP?

gj saying "seems like"!

I like SP. I don't love it, but I like it.

... believe they are some of the most fun and most challenging decks to play.

Compared to what? This is the thing. You and I wouldn't know. We have played in one or two formats, and those formats were SP-dominated.

SP has been dominating for a long time, yeah. But I mean, it's still beatable...I'm sorry your precious rogue deck can't contend in a format vs SP. Heck, if Vileplume didn't exist, I could've easily topped States, in addition to winning a few more tournaments, but I don't whine about Vilegar. Vilegar, imo, is a boring deck to play, but I deal with it.

Firstly, a rogue is not rogue if it can't contend in the format, c'mon everyone, we know this already. Secondly, if Vileplume didn't exist you'd have been beaten by a superior player playing SP - don't make excuses.

But props for the dwi attitude about Vilegar. That's cool.

But SP is just an amazing deck style in general...why the hate?

Why the hate?

Well, if you look inward only, looking only at what there IS... Then yeah, SP is amazing, and that's why I like it.

But if you look outward, at past formats, and at potential formats - potential decks and strategies - SP looks a lot more hateable, because as a deck it inherently shuts down a huge amount of competition.

Is this how the game usually works? I don't know. I wouldn't. Nor would you.

 

[Shen]

Although the list of things you need counters for seems to be airtight, you're going to have to play a luxchomp deck with a weavile g, 1-1 honchkrow sv, and a 1-1 dialga along with all the colorless techs and aaron's that you need to compete in a tough mirror. And btw, it's not like you can cut any other techs to make room for those cards. Bronzong is needed, so are all the mirror techs, and promocroak (for gigas, magnezone, lux x, ambipom). So.... you're still going to get beat by steelix and by gdos about half the time since you don't have twins + e belt. .

You see, StormFront's list can get even less technical than it already is. For example, Drifblim can cover Machamp and Mewtwo because it's an evolution and can target their weaknesses. Is Mewperior even a problem? I don't see it around, and when I have seen it on one single occasion I was able to get 5 prizes with only Uxies >.> I don't think it needs to be addressed.

Use your time wisely against Gengar if you can, collect some supporters to Bright Look their Vileplume. If you have access to Uxie Lv.X or Drifblim, you can OHKO it right there. If not, you can Flash Impact and either hope they can't retreat or finish it later with Dragon Rush. It may be more effective to KO it than lock it depending on the circumstances, they can sometimes spam Level Down =/ It's how I've played it, and all I can say is it works.

So, when considering everything above, many Luxchomps don't even run Dialga anymore. I will say, though, that Drifblim is losing popularity and I don't really see why. But I guess it works, Mewtwo and Machamp aren't seeing enough play to warrant it. Nonetheless, should the meta ever demand SP to answer to Mewtwo and Machamp, Drifblim would have 'em down.

Furthermore, I don't see Honchkrow as a necessary tech in anything besides Sablock (which is on the list anyways). Sablock is gonna be a top decking contest for anyone ('cept Uxie donk). Luxray covers Honchkrow, and Ambipom, Dragonite, Garchomp and even the rare Regigigas SP covers their Garchomp. If you have access to your resources, you have them covered... the only problem is that the point of Sablock is to make sure you never reach those resources

So the remainder of the list would be a mere 3 cards: 1-1 Drifblim and Weavile G. If you really wanted to counter ever deck in the format, SP could do it like that... but from my observations at states, you're not even likely to play everything on that list.

I don't mean to pick on just your post, but I'm illustrating for the sake of discussion how it's perfectly plausible for SP to have an answer for everything that sees play.


EDIT: Forgot you mentioned Steelix/Gyara. Drifblim's Take Away attack is great at breaking a Steelix wall. Blaziken is still seeing play, but I'm trying to show how an SP deck can potentially cover just about anything without cutting much out. But that's besides the point anyways, really, because if you play any of the decks on that list you're likely to run into at least one of these counters in an SP deck.

As for Gyara, it's generally written off as an even match-up unless the decks stray far from their standard builds. It's not as easy to beat with SP, but it's still by no means a favorable match for Gyara. I'm not seeing why SP needs Twins (which some run) and Expert Belt (which DialgaChomp runs). The attack of choice against Gyara is Trash Bolt w/ Lucario and a Crobat for Expert Belt, which is quite a bit and that's the only reason Gyara has an even match-up. Any time it can't do that it is hitting the bench since Gyara literally has so much to choose from to KO on the bench.

 

[eriknance]

Is this how the game usually works? I don't know. I wouldn't. Nor would you.

Thank you Kayle for injecting some sense into this thread. Here, let me add to it...

From the perspective of a player who's been in and out of the game for 5+ years, I can definitely see a reason for why people do not like SP decks right now. A lot of comparisons have been made to Gardevoir/Gallade decks in the '07-'08 season, but here's the thing: GG decks dominated only one season. Regionals this year will mark the 3rd time my brother would be able to (successfully) play Palkia Lock. He won Regionals in 2009 with it, placed 2nd in 2010 with it, and can probably beat up on some competition with it again this time around. When the popular deck(s) stick around for an entire year, it's bad, but when they stick around for 3 years, it's just disgusting.

Good, solid counter decks to SP have been noted. Those are plausible choices with good results. But please note that nearly every deck (aside from Gyarados) that exists only exists as a counter to SP. VileGar was originally intended to lock up Trainers (the "broken" part of SP), Machamp could KO almost any SP for 1 energy, Steelix was weak to fire (something most SP's didn't run at the time) and drained SP decks of their resources quickly. These are decks that can pass through the SP battlefield successfully, but only when they don't bump up against pesky counters.

What has happened here is a polarization of strategies in the Pokemon TCG. Before SP decks were around, decks didn't have to be built around a single attack (Take Out, Tail Revenge, Poltergeist, Gaia Crush). In fact, think about that for just a minute: aside from SP decks, there exists just a handful of attacks that other decks use... pretty crazy. No, there were a variety of strategies before SP decks were around (excluding the Gardevoir/Gallade season). I remember the last tournament I played in before SP decks hit the scene. It was a City Championship where my brother and Jake Burt (one of the best players this game never really saw) ended up in the top two playing Magnezone/Raichu against Abamasnow/Cresselia. I played Wailord that day and beat up on a Sceptile deck, a Gengar/Starmie deck, and a Darkrai deck. I lost to a couple of electric decks though. Before the GG season, there were TONS of strategies. But now, there are a handful of attacks trying to take on SP.

I originally liked the SP mechanic; I thought it was neat and efficient, though I wasn't crazy about the simplicity of the attacks or the Poke-Powers/Bodies. That was over 2 years ago. Now, I'm just tired of playing SP or playing against it. There have been so many interesting cards to come out recently that have been completely ignored because they can't run the SP gauntlet. Leafeon/Magmortar, Electivire/Scizor, Electrode/Scizor, Flygon decks, etc. - there are tons of fun cards out there, and they just can't handle the heat competitively because everything's about speed or trainer lock. I look forward to a substantial rotation that causes people to finally try out new strategies. Tank decks, special condition decks, energy manipulation, kamikaze... these are all styles of play that many people today have never experienced. When the game slows down, I'm sure many who have defended SP will look back and say, "Wow, this is a lot funner than all that donking or locking that went on in the past."

 

[Ignatious]

Dialga does realistically beat Vilegar. More often than not, Vilegar loses to its own inability to draw the correct action cards. I've been Level-Down'ed multiple times in one game and still won. Lostgar was all hype and less results, and with Bubble Coat type cards in your deck, I'm probably winning just because you are drawing that in lieu of action cards that could probably help you win the game. An unanswered Big Daddy Krow will probably roll you. SP doesn't need solid counters so much as you get a weak start and it will punish you.

That's my whole point. SP is a deck that is amazing at punishing bad or weak starts. Build your deck to not have bad or weak starts. Make decks consistent. Take out dead draws. Run ONE bubble coat. You will cycle through and find it. Rescue energys keep Gengars and Vileplumes coming. It's not hard to draw the correct action cards. Not even against SP. I don't understand how anyone is having suck difficulties.

@ Nance: So you're tired of it. That's an understandable point. But wouldn't that make you tired of Palkia Lock? NOT of SP in general? Delta decks were out for a few years, and so were Dark decks before them. But the decks within those mechanics changed quite often, with other contenders that played outside of those mechanics. The decks within SP have been changing, Last year around this time was when Luxchomp first became a Tier 1 deck. Gyarados has been playable for longer than that, and SF Gengar has been playable since it's release years ago as well. If you want to pick on specific decks there are MANY of them that anyone could be sick of.

 

[eriknance]

@ Nance: So you're tired of it. That's an understandable point. But wouldn't that make you tired of Palkia Lock? NOT of SP in general? Delta decks were out for a few years, and so were Dark decks before them. But the decks within those mechanics changed quite often, with other contenders that played outside of those mechanics. The decks within SP have been changing, Last year around this time was when Luxchomp first became a Tier 1 deck. Gyarados has been playable for longer than that, and SF Gengar has been playable since it's release years ago as well. If you want to pick on specific decks there are MANY of them that anyone could be sick of.

Ignatious, I think you missed my point. When delta decks were around, there were plenty of non-delta decks that could keep up in the format. Delta decks only got a few delta-exclusive cards, and they weren't on the same level as any of the SP-exclusive trainers, so they weren't overpowering in a format that featured tons of decks and tons of strategies. Dark decks worked the same way (though from what I heard Rock Lock was insanely popular before I started playing). Moreover, Battle Frontier AND Holon Legacy existed for countering those decks.

But the biggest difference during those times is that other decks (Mewtric, Lunarock, Queendom, Ludicargo) could still work. These were decks that existed before delta Pokemon became popular, and they continued to exist afterwards. They also existed in a format with Dark decks as well. There were no constraints on the strategies that a player could use. SP decks, on the other hand, gained dominance over the format the moment they were released (almost 50% of the top 4 decks in 2009 States were SP-based). See, Metanite was fast, but it wasn't a speed deck; neither were decks like Dragtrode or Ludicargo. SP decks, however, are inherently fast given that they're all Basic Pokemon. Since SP hit the scene, all other decks had to bend to compete with SP's speed and versatility.

This is the main difference between SP decks and those other types of decks, the fact that SP decks were built for speed (well, that and its exclusive Trainer line, which none of those other decks had). When speed takes precedence in a format, everything else has to match it. This is why every non-SP deck is based around Pokemon requiring only a single Energy to do something (that or they have to maintain a Trainer lock for the ENTIRE game). And like I said before, this causes a rift in strategies within the format. To keep up with SP's speed, decks have to speed up themselves (like how Gyarados can drop an Uxie 5 times in a single turn) or employ some type of lock (like how Vilegar can lock trainers for the whole game). When the cards are turned over, if the donk is avoided, everything boils down to speed or trainer lock. In my own opinion, it's boring.

Also, I think I said this before, but just in case I didn't... If there were no SP cards in the format, everything would still be the same since Gyarados is essentially a speed deck. It does have a hard time against Vilegar, so you would still see the same two strategies everywhere. I guess if you want to get really technical, I don't hate SP so much as I hate the speed in the format. It's just that SP decks are usually what people think of when they think about speed.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Worth noting also that the delta support cards also worked with a number of non-delta decks. The easy example would be Infernape/Delcatty which used the discard mechanism of the delta supporters to put stuff when Delcatty could use it.

Also key in on the word Supporter. Most of the delta support was in the form of supporters. The key trainer support just let you find your supporters faster or to get them back from the discard pile. SP is the reverse where you have a key supporter that grants access to many fast trainers. You weren't going to play multiple delta supporters unlike SP Radar, PokeTurn, Energy Gain, etc. potentially happening all on the same turn. The delta support granted massive consistency without the massive speed that the SP trainers give.

In fact thinking back speed decks were frequently one of the counters to delta decks. Banette EX for instance tried to disrupt delta by massively outspeeding it.

 

[Ignatious]

Ignatious, I think you missed my point. When delta decks were around, there were plenty of non-delta decks that could keep up in the format. Delta decks only got a few delta-exclusive cards, and they weren't on the same level as any of the SP-exclusive trainers, so they weren't overpowering in a format that featured tons of decks and tons of strategies. Dark decks worked the same way (though from what I heard Rock Lock was insanely popular before I started playing). Moreover, Battle Frontier AND Holon Legacy existed for countering those decks.

But the biggest difference during those times is that other decks (Mewtric, Lunarock, Queendom, Ludicargo) could still work. These were decks that existed before delta Pokemon became popular, and they continued to exist afterwards. They also existed in a format with Dark decks as well. There were no constraints on the strategies that a player could use. SP decks, on the other hand, gained dominance over the format the moment they were released (almost 50% of the top 4 decks in 2009 States were SP-based). See, Metanite was fast, but it wasn't a speed deck; neither were decks like Dragtrode or Ludicargo. SP decks, however, are inherently fast given that they're all Basic Pokemon. Since SP hit the scene, all other decks had to bend to compete with SP's speed and versatility.

This is the main difference between SP decks and those other types of decks, the fact that SP decks were built for speed (well, that and its exclusive Trainer line, which none of those other decks had). When speed takes precedence in a format, everything else has to match it. This is why every non-SP deck is based around Pokemon requiring only a single Energy to do something (that or they have to maintain a Trainer lock for the ENTIRE game). And like I said before, this causes a rift in strategies within the format. To keep up with SP's speed, decks have to speed up themselves (like how Gyarados can drop an Uxie 5 times in a single turn) or employ some type of lock (like how Vilegar can lock trainers for the whole game). When the cards are turned over, if the donk is avoided, everything boils down to speed or trainer lock. In my own opinion, it's boring.

Also, I think I said this before, but just in case I didn't... If there were no SP cards in the format, everything would still be the same since Gyarados is essentially a speed deck. It does have a hard time against Vilegar, so you would still see the same two strategies everywhere. I guess if you want to get really technical, I don't hate SP so much as I hate the speed in the format. It's just that SP decks are usually what people think of when they think about speed.

Whether it be speed, disruption, or power, EVERY deck in any format has always had to to bend to compete with the top deck. When LBS ran the table, every deck had to make sure it could withstand its sheer power. When GG ran the table every deck had to withstand its disruption. That's the same as it is now. Luxchomp has many tricks up its sleeve, but other top decks in years past could do just as much. The format we are currently in has MANY top tier decks that can stand up its speed, the format is diverse. Many different decks won states. TWELVE to be exact. Most were Luxchomp, but it was the same with any top deck in years past, not because it's a broken deck, but because it's the most played. Vilegar wrecked havoc in the GA marathon. It was easily the bdif, but only because it was played the most. Luxchomp is not broken. It's just played the most.

SPs have their own engine, and it's a really good engine, but what is popularly missed in the engine that stage 2 decks can run that do in fact keep up. Sure, Machamp can't poketurn itself. It can't Spray. The fatc though, is that it doesn't need to in order to be a playable deck. It has its own engine that Luxchomp cannot abuse that makes it able to stand up to the current formar (including Luxchomp). Luxchomp can;t use stage 2 techs, nor can it trainer lock. Other decks in this format have options that SP decks do not have availiable to them. These options are VERY good options, and keep them surviving in such a speed oriented format.

People complain about the options and abilities that are unique to SP, but without those cards Luxchomp would disappear and the next big deck would take its place, with a unique strategy unlike other decks. Then everyone would complain about its capabilities as well. As far back as I can remember, the top deck has always been hated on. I think SP hate, is, in actuality, bdif hate.

If the speed in SP is truly what you hate, then hate the format in its entirety.

 

[vaporeon]

Thank you Kayle for injecting some sense into this thread. Here, let me add to it...

I to have been a player for about 7 or so years. I started when the EX series was released. There were so many decks to choose from. Of cource I went red face paint but there was a lot more the game had to offer at that time. Now its about play SP or play a counter. The game feels like I'm play Yugioh all over again. Its the reason I quit Yugioh and now it seems Pokemon is following in its footsteps.

 

[Kayle]

People complain about the options and abilities that are unique to SP, but without those cards Luxchomp would disappear and the next big deck would take its place, with a unique strategy unlike other decks. Then everyone would complain about its capabilities as well.

Yeah, but would the complaints be founded?

I'm not complaining that SP is good. I'm not complaining that it has a unique strategy and unique capabilities unlike any other decks seen.

I'd be complaining that it's forced the metagame to conform to it - and that it's done so for three seasons in a row.

That's all.

 

[supertyranitar]

SP has been one of those mechanics that started out fine. When it was born in Platinum, I myself liked the idea behind it quite a bit. Basics that were actually really good, and had their own engine. They brought to the table a fair amount of skill given when they were introduced. Power Spray was one of those cards that one really had to decide when they wanted to use during that time, and Double Colorless was no where to be seen. SP's had a lot of great cards when first introduced, Dialga G and Palkia G being the biggest ones, and soon to follow was Luxray GL. Still, during this time, everything was balanced. SP's had a great addition, SP Radar, but, they still had opposition in the forms of Flygon, and Machamp. Beedrill could even take them to a degree, as was seen by Raybees. Gyarados soon hit the tournament scene, and still, things were balanced between the world of SP and Non-SP. But, when DCE hit the field, that's when the problems occurred.

When DCE was released, that let LuxChomp off the leash, and allowed it to rise above the other SP decks and become the biggest problem.

What's made things worse is that LuxChomp has only gotten more and more things to use. Entei Raikou Legend, Junk Arm, Communication, and Twins were the biggest things. This one deck has gotten so much support, and when Claydol left the format, other decks got hit hard from the loss of their biggest engine. Sure, Uxie was still there, but, that was the problem. It was ONLY Uxie to give these other decks draw power. Being able to stop an Uxie meant that SP's could just pile drive decks into the ground because they could not get off the ground - the exception to this, as of right now, being Vileplume variants. Further, since LuxChomp has had so much in its court, everything else has to work to be able to fight back against the deck. Even worse is that its speed has been hard to match with most decks; speed has been too big of a deciding factor for these past two formats. It's ridiculous when speed alone has to decide an entire format. Formats should not be about who's as fast as The Flash. (Hidden Legends on was a prime example of what a format SHOULD be. There were multiple decks, not just one big beefy deck that shut out all but two other options, and speed wasn't such a large factor. It was clearly a good thing, but it did not absolutely decide everything. LBS was a great deck, yes, it had a lot of speed and power, but the other decks in the format, such as Pow!Tar, Flariados, MewTric, Rock Lock even, were available. This format was completely balanced, and skill was the deciding factor most of the time. Not that it isn't now, but that'll be addressed later). If it wasn't for things like Broken-Time Space, Evolution decks, in my honest opinion, would not stand a chance. One card versus an entire engine given to an entirely basic deck that is up and going constantly by turn two. Gyarados is an incredibly fast deck, clearly. It has the potential to disrupt powers like LuxChomp does via Mesprit. It has an attack that does ninety for no energy, and 110 with Expert Belt. But, it has to play cards specifically aimed to getting the chance to be able to disrupt powers, it has to play a lot of trainers just to get off the ground as fast as it does. What does LuxChomp have to do? Play the engine that was handed to it from the start that allows it to both set up and disrupt powers, and has an easy time of getting their important cards back to hand to use again. On top of that? It has a multitude of counters that can be tech'ed for whatever match-up might prove difficult.

I know that I simply cannot stand LuxChomp at the moment. I know that it does take some skill backing it for match-ups like mirrors, or other SP variants. However, it's ridiculous when seeing someone run hot with LuxChomp. It's hard to beat someone that's running incredibly well if they have LuxChomp in their hands. And, if your starting hand is awful to begin with, your chances of winning are fairly low, depending on the deck that you happen to be using. If it's another SP variant, and your hand is awful, you're done. If it's Gyarados, and your hand is awful, you're done. Vilegar is about the only deck that I've seen that can cope with a bad hand, but even it has its own issues.

I really don't hate all SP's. LuxChomp is just the one deck that I cannot get behind. It's incredibly boring. I'm not a fan of a deck that pretty much had everything handed to it. But, while it was incredible last format, and has proven to be good in this format, as Ignatious pointed out, it's also heavily played. That's a huge factor in why it wins as much as it does (even though it has a ton of different counters for certain match-ups). Things like Gyarados and Vilegar both can contend with it, and contend with it well. But, in the end, It comes down to speed or trainer lock. And with speed comes a lot of luck. Incredibly boring if you ask me.

 

[eriknance]

Ignatious, I do hate the format in its entirety. I've said before that this is the worst format I've ever played in, but to say that SP has nothing to do with that would be misguided. I'm well aware that there's usually a top deck in the format that other decks have to be able to face. You mention LBS, which is a good example. But decks like Flariados or Ludicargo didn't just disappear after LBS hit the scene; instead, they ran comfortable techs to help out in the matchup. They still maintained their core strategy. Here, check out the results from the '05-'06 City Championships, when LBS should have been dominating:

City Champion decks for the 15+ division:
61 Scizogross
50 Queendom
46 Ludicargo
34 Draggytrode
32 ZRE
28 Medicham
23 Meta-Nite
23 Dark TTar
19 Eeveelution
18 RockLock
13 Blastoise-ex
12 Typhlosion-ex
8 Dark Slowking
8 TTar-ex
6 Metattack
5 Espeon-ex
5 Dark Steelix
5 Feraligator-ex
5 Meganium
5 Zap-turn-dos
4 Metatrode
4 Jumpluff
4 Hariyama
4 Mercury
3 Dragonite-d
3 acid liability
3 Tyranitar-d
3 Blaziken
3 Burning Liability
3 Steelix-ex/Tyranicargo
2 Dark Liability
2 Flareon-ex
2 Sunflora
2 Houndoom
2 Camerupt
2 Ho-oh-ex
2 Four-corners
2 Crobat
2 Venucenter
2 Manectric-ex
2 eggs.dec
2 Jynx Pwn4g3
2 Polytoed
2 Sally-ex
2 Salamence-d
Dusclops-ex
Lunatone/Solrock Swarm
Pilowswine
Machamp
Marowak
Vilex
Steelix-ex
Mediyama
Swampert
Slowbro
Chex Mix
Articuno-ex
Zapdos-ex
Liability
Chaos Legends

Info found here: http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26546&highlight=cities

I'm pretty sure LBS was "Blastoise ex" on that list. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from when a past format was this diverse. And even though LBS did very well at States that year, decks that were prominent in the format prior to LBS could still exist after the combo started dominating. This wasn't like the Gardevoir/Gallade season (another format I was not fond of) and it's not like our format today. Today, entire decks have been wiped out because of SP. Right before SP came out, these decks were winning tournaments: Dusknoir/Lumineon, Tyranitar, Regigigas, Kingdra, AMU/Palkia X, Gengar, Magnezone, Abamasnow, etc. After the SP flood at States, Machamp and Gengar were the only ones to truly survive (the reason? single energy attacks). And this was with the slowest SP's of the bunch.

I get what you're saying about there always being a top few decks to rule the scene. But you have to admit that there are some key differences when it comes to SP:

1. They've been around for far too long. By comparison, GG was only around for a year and made a brief reappearance last season.
2. They gain a tremendous advantage from SP-exclusive Trainers that other decks can't use. Delta/Dark decks weren't like this. The Holon Engine was available to every deck, while TRR's best trainers were too.
3. They feature a mechanic that the game has never seen before by all of them being Basic Pokemon. Unlike differences in type (Delta/Dark decks), this is a game-breaking difference since the most powerful Pokemon is now a Basic, increasing speed and opening up more spots in the deck for techs/counters.

TL;DR: Strategies were plentiful before Gardevoir/Gallade and SP. Now they are not. SP's are the top deck because of speed, something that can only be countered successfully with speed or absurd trainer locks.

 

[vaporeon]

My Chaos Legends deck is on that list. I came second with a rogue deck no one said I could win with. I'll be doing it again this year.

 

[Porii Sames]

Vaporeon, just saying but spelling rogue correctly makes you look much more intelligent.

 

[vaporeon]

Vaporeon, just saying but spelling rogue correctly makes you look much more intelligent.

I guess but I just misplace 2 letter. Not a big issue.

 

[Kayle]

I guess but I just misplace 2 letter. Not a big issue.

You trigger the filter and it always shows up as red face powder instead of rogue.

 

[Jaeger]

Ignatious, I do hate the format in its entirety. I've said before that this is the worst format I've ever played in, but to say that SP has nothing to do with that would be misguided. I'm well aware that there's usually a top deck in the format that other decks have to be able to face. You mention LBS, which is a good example. But decks like Flariados or Ludicargo didn't just disappear after LBS hit the scene; instead, they ran comfortable techs to help out in the matchup. They still maintained their core strategy. Here, check out the results from the '05-'06 City Championships, when LBS should have been dominating:



I'm pretty sure LBS was "Blastoise ex" on that list. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from when a past format was this diverse. And even though LBS did very well at States that year, decks that were prominent in the format prior to LBS could still exist after the combo started dominating. This wasn't like the Gardevoir/Gallade season (another format I was not fond of) and it's not like our format today. Today, entire decks have been wiped out because of SP. Right before SP came out, these decks were winning tournaments: Dusknoir/Lumineon, Tyranitar, Regigigas, Kingdra, AMU/Palkia X, Gengar, Magnezone, Abamasnow, etc. After the SP flood at States, Machamp and Gengar were the only ones to truly survive (the reason? single energy attacks). And this was with the slowest SP's of the bunch.

I get what you're saying about there always being a top few decks to rule the scene. But you have to admit that there are some key differences when it comes to SP:

1. They've been around for far too long. By comparison, GG was only around for a year and made a brief reappearance last season.
2. They gain a tremendous advantage from SP-exclusive Trainers that other decks can't use. Delta/Dark decks weren't like this. The Holon Engine was available to every deck, while TRR's best trainers were too.
3. They feature a mechanic that the game has never seen before by all of them being Basic Pokemon. Unlike differences in type (Delta/Dark decks), this is a game-breaking difference since the most powerful Pokemon is now a Basic, increasing speed and opening up more spots in the deck for techs/counters.

TL;DR: Strategies were plentiful before Gardevoir/Gallade and SP. Now they are not. SP's are the top deck because of speed, something that can only be countered successfully with speed or absurd trainer locks.

Eric I really can't argue with anything you said but wouldn't you agree that if SP didn't exist it would only be something else (OMG Gyarados its for 90 with no energy!, All Gengar Prime has to do is remove only 6 Pokmon!, Vilegar stops me from playing trainers and they get to flip when it dies, broken!, etc.)

 

[vaporeon]

I would agree with that but IF SP was not around, more decks COULD be played. GDos and Trainer lock is played because of SP. If there were no need to counter the deck, other would flourish. I'm not saying the deck would not be played but it would not be a common as it is now.

 

[Yoshi-]

Eric I really can't argue with anything you said but wouldn't you agree that if SP didn't exist it would only be something else (OMG Gyarados its for 90 with no energy!, All Gengar Prime has to do is remove only 6 Pokmon!, Vilegar stops me from playing trainers and they get to flip when it dies, broken!, etc.)

If we wouldnt have sps you would have at least 2 turns to live to build your counters. Sp counters dont work because youll never get them up, if prue machamp doesnt beat sp that speaks for itself, right?

 

[Porii Sames]

I would agree with that but IF SP was not around, more decks COULD be played. GDos and Trainer lock is played because of SP. If there were no need to counter the deck, other would flourish. I'm not saying the deck would not be played but it would not be a common as it is now.

No. Gyarados and trainerlock are played to win.

Trainerelock loses to Dchomp. Trainerlock beats Gyarados. ???