Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

SP Hate

Porii Sames said:
Counter plume, not Slowking. I can't think of a counter there was to Slowking back then...
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Just popping in to mention that the Muk from the fossil set completely shut it down, neo genesis Magby was somewhat used, and neo genesis Pichu was pretty widely used, most common was probably neo discovery Igglybuff though (Slowking decks would often run the Pichu as a kamikaze way to get rid of Igglybuffs).
Slowking was the backbone of dang near every deck that topcut at worlds that year.
After worlds, fossil Muk was reprinted in Legendary Collection and Slowking was still banned.

A one-time showing comparable to what SP has been doing was enough to get Slowking banned and there were already some serious counters to Slowking.

If you view bannings according to how they have been implemented in the past, it really isn't that crazy for somebody to muse about banning cards that have controlled the format for multiple years.

When you consider that the format pretty much rotates around cards that have been out of print for how long, it kind of reminds me of the original reason given for the modified format coming into existence.

My personal view on the matter is that pokemon has had a singular BDIF for much longer than what is healthy for any game.
 
Jeremy Badeaux said:
A one-time showing comparable to what SP has been doing was enough to get Slowking banned and there were already some serious counters to Slowking.

If you view bannings according to how they have been implemented in the past, it really isn't that crazy for somebody to muse about banning cards that have controlled the format for multiple years..
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I agree that if banning Slowking was logical, then banning SP should make even more sense. As brought out, there was a list of plausible Slowking counters. Yet, we have plausible SP counters like Machamp, Mewtwo, Relicanth, Spiritomb, and Vileplume. Even with the presence of serious Slowking counters in the format, it was banned. We have such obvious SP couters that aren't working (read: less serious counters), and SP is still dominating.

On the other hand I don't really like bannings in many games. Unless it stops a game from truly being competitive, I think it should just run its course. It takes a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude, I guess. Besides, we have a level for diversity in the competitive environment anyways... it's just not very much lol


Kayle said:
Wait what? *confused*

Isn't like. Every meta deck played to win?
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You'd think he knew that :p I mean, he has defended donk decks as being legit because they're pretty much played to win.
 
vaporeon said:
I'm not talking about this format. I'm talking about the next format where their are no good sniping moves or DGX. It's just a Plume on a rampage with no way to stop it. Also, it has 120 HP which means you lost 2 turns trying to kill it but lets not forget that the big snipers loses 2 to all energy using the attack which put you back 2-3 turns.

Look at this. Armaldo SS HAS to be active so your opponents gets no Supporters. Golduck d prevents your opponent from playing Stadiums while you have a Holon Stadium in play. Houndoom UF says your opponent can't play trainer as long as you have less benched Pokemon. Sure its a bench effect but has a huge draw back. Kabutops MD HAS to be active to prevents your opponents from playing trainers. We already know about Spiritomb AR, Vileplume EX states that is HAS to be your active Pokemon for the effect to take action and Walrein ex has a put into play power that stops trainers.

I did not list any Pokemon that has to attack to stop from playing. You see the pattern here? All the above Pokemon here MUST be active for the effect to take effect, other then Houndoom but you have to be able to keep less Pokemon in play then your opponent which is hard when there was so much return. The POP Pidgeot returns Pokemon back to the deck as a Power. I'm not with SP. This format can't be saved but I do not want to go into the next format with a card that can't be stopped.

Vileplume does not slow the host player down. All other card the prevent from playing come with a cost. Its ether an attack or has a requirement to be active. meaning you lost a turn to put a lock on someone. Vileplume does not make you lose a turn while you're still attacking, setting up or what ever. Vileplume needs to be banned because it is broken.

---------- Post added 03/28/2011 at 10:43 PM ----------



The thing is Slowking WAS banned for being too powerful.
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Just a slight nitpick, here. Blastoise UL, and heck, most water cards from UL, can snipe. SO assuming HS-ON, we still have some serious snipe power. And without spiritomb, vileplume will take a minimum of two turns to set up. (with the new candy errata) Warotrtle HS uses one energy, snipes it for 20 on turn two, blastoise follows it up mid-game. Sure, you can lay down an oddish. But then i'll snipe that, and you've given me a free prize, because you cannot immediately candy the oddish into a second vileplume. It just takes some thinking about it to realize that in HS-ON, snipe is by no means dead.
 
Okey, how do you intend to counter Vileplume then?

-You can't bring it up to active position.
-You have to snipe it for two straight turns to take it out, in which time another has come to deal with you.
-WHAT would snipe it? Anything that can snipe requires a hell of a lot of energy. Take Balstoise UL, four energies. Take Drifblim FB, the most reasonable one, three energies.

Vileplume is pretty much the most dominant card next year, and it worries me. How can there be complex, interesting decks, when this happens:

-Plays Vileplume, attacks with Tyranitar Prime for 60
-Draws, half of hand reduced to useless, and a giant 160HPd tyranitar staring down at you. Not Good. Attaks for something.
-Draws, attaches, attacks for 120 and rips everything your opponent has in play to pieces.
-Scoops

Trainerlock kills diversity in the next format, my hope is RR-on. Lets take GoW Reprint=Useless, Crush Hammer=Useless. You have nothing but inconsistent, slow decks that hit each other for some amounts of damage. Not that this format is better, but without VIleplume everything is better. IF there even was a decent counter, but NO.

E: Forgot Blaziken FB, that could work. But then, every deck teching it?
 
Vileplum will be sooo good without spiritomb and bts, it wil even have to run candy to get setup somehow, otherwise GoW will pck off your oddish. The thing is, you can adjust to plum because it gives you time to get your stuff out, you cnat do anything against t2lookimpactuxiebatbatspraysprayrushbatspraylol
 
If it IS RR-on, that's when one should worry the most about trainer lock. Spiritomb would bring about the ability to keep things locked down for the entire game, for one sends out Spiritomb, evolves up to Vileplume, and the trainer lock will always stay in effect. This game CANNOT afford to keep Spiritomb in the format, not when it poses that kind of threat.

What's worse? Catcher/GoW becomes useless at that point, should Spiritomb stay in the format, because you can't gust up said Oddish, Gloom, etc. and kill it off before Vileplume hits the field. Without Spiritomb, that becomes possible at least.
 
Vileplume will only be viable if Spiritomb is in the format assuming RR/AR-ON. Otherwise it will be too hard to setup consistently with catcher in the format. Which gives me the impression that anything other than HGSS-ON will be bad for next years format. Still, don't forget Mew Prime over the next couple of formats will be a beast without BTS, SP engine and rare candy errata. So trainer lock won't neccessarily be as bad as people think.
 
Bloodbane said:
Draws, half of hand reduced to useless, and a giant 160HPd tyranitar staring down at you. Not Good. Attaks for something.
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If Vileplume becomes as dominant as you say, this will never happen. People will stop playing trainers in their decks unless they have a way to shut it off. There will be no point.

The obvious anti-Viletar... would be a supporter-driven Machamp deck. And then a counter to that would be some psychic type, maybe Metagross UL. And so on.
 
So the next format as going to be as bad as this one. Is there even a point in playing anymore? Whats the point if you only get 1 Trainer a turn? There are not good stadiums to play. Lets face it, The EX series was the best with making counters. Make a stadium that turns off Poke-Bodies.
 
vaporeon said:
So the next format as going to be as bad as this one. Is there even a point in playing anymore? Whats the point if you only get 1 Trainer a turn?
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Who cares when you have such awesome Pokemon Powers? Dude. Fighting Tag is amazing. Also, special energy! And SEEKER.

Iunno, feels like the format is preparing us for it!
 
Even if spiritomb remains legal if will still be very hard to get a decent deck going that is centered around vileplume's trainer locking ability. Vilegar is able to do it now because of the pitch dark ghastly, which we will lose. Now, trainer lock decks are going to have to probably play some trainers because they cannot rely on the very high chance of a gamelong lockdown.
 
Still, if you open with Spiritomb there's a good chance you'll have the gamelong lock. Thankfully we're losing Warp Energy so locking Spiritomb with an attack is probably a KO and dragging out Vileplume will likely be a successful strategy. But you gotta wonder how consistent these decks will be with no Uxie. No trainers and no Uxie sounds a little brutal, even now a lot of Vilegar lists run like 5 - 6ish in any combination of Lookers/PONT (and sometimes Copycat) in addition to Uxie.
 
Shen said:
Still, if you open with Spiritomb there's a good chance you'll have the gamelong lock. Thankfully we're losing Warp Energy so locking Spiritomb with an attack is probably a KO and dragging out Vileplume will likely be a successful strategy. But you gotta wonder how consistent these decks will be with no Uxie. No trainers and no Uxie sounds a little brutal, even now a lot of Vilegar lists run like 5 - 6ish in any combination of Lookers/PONT (and sometimes Copycat) in addition to Uxie.
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They do gain Mag prime so that won't be too much of a problem for the deck.
 
vaporeon said:
So the next format as going to be as bad as this one. Is there even a point in playing anymore? Whats the point if you only get 1 Trainer a turn? There are not good stadiums to play. Lets face it, The EX series was the best with making counters. Make a stadium that turns off Poke-Bodies.
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If we get an HGSS-on rotation, I don't think the next format will be too bad. Pokemon Catcher looks pretty threatening, but this is about the ONLY thing that seems really speedy to me. In terms of Trainer lock decks, things will be fine so long as we don't have AR Spiritomb in the format. The problem with Trainer lock right now is that it can be maintained throughout the entire game based solely on opening hands. Again, this is another form of that whole "Turn 1" stuff getting wildly out of hand (it might not be a donk, but some decks are just worthless against an entire game of Trainer lock). Without Spiritomb, I can anticipate things like Vileplume or Gothitelle and play accordingly. Same thing on the speed side of things. If Zekrom rush is popular, I should expect that my opponent is playing Pokemon Catcher and work on benching two Phanpy. To do otherwise would mean that I'm a bad player (unless, of course, things are prized).

I'm not terribly threatened by RR-on, SV-on, or AR-on formats either (whatever gets rid of SP and Uxie), but I won't be happy with them since it would prolong the divide between the way we play the game and the way Japan does. P!P has been extremely effective at managing a format that is just not in line with what Japan's is. Sometimes this has seemed their own doing, other times (like with Japan's sudden move to an HGSS-on format) it seems out of their hands.

Also, I agree completely with your assessment of ex-era counters. Battle Frontier, Milotic ex, Desert Ruins, Cursed Stone, Windstorm... these were all effective counters against popular decks during those times. I struggle to see why SP was so hard to counter, though I have a feeling it's because of SP's speed and versatility. Cards like AR Rapidash and Mewtwo X just can't compete sometimes with the blinding speed of Luxchomp or SP's natural counter to basically everything: Dialga G X.
 
vaporeon said:
Maybe a HGSS on format would be better for the game?
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I honestly think it would be, and not just because of "SP hatred" or any such thing. One of the things I've always felt strongly about is making sure that our format is as close to Japan's as possible. That way the game can be played the way it should be played.

Let's suppose for a moment that the rotation for next season is AR-on. This would leave us with some pretty strong cards, including Spiritomb, Charizard, Expert Belt, the Arceus line, and some other potentially powerful cards like Cherrim and Porygon-Z G. We might not see these cards as that good right now (though Spiritomb would definitely cause some havoc with its trainer lock potential), but imagine what might happen the moment a Basic Pokemon gets a semi-powerful attack for a DCE. That plus an Expert Belt plus 1st turn Trainer cards might spell out the game's donkiest format ever. And then it might not... but here's the kicker...

No matter what an AR-on format brought us, Japan doesn't care. They would still be producing cards with an HGSS-on format in mind. What if they made a super-powerful Stage 2 Pokemon with a Poke-Body that said "You may copy the Poke-Body of any Basic Pokemon you have in play"? Spiritomb would make that card insanely good in our dumb AR-on format, but it wouldn't make a dent in Japan's format. Moreover, they would have no incentive to create counter cards, since they don't have to deal with it.

My point is, even being a couple of sets off from what Japan is playing can have dramatic effects on what we end up playing. Then again, it might not at all! But it's a risk I think should be avoided for the health of the format.
 
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