SP Hate
- Thread starter Porii Sames
- Start date
vaporeon
Moderator
You make a point there eriknance. I'll lose the RR Eevee and SV Magmortar but I'm liking a HGSS on format. Might be the reason we got no SP counters because they were not playing the SP format.
---------- Post added 03/30/2011 at 08:31 PM ----------
SP takes like no skill. Sure the mirror takes a little skill but the games still come down to opening hands and top decks. My first time playing SP, I won a lot of my games, even during testing. The deck plays itself. G-Dos is easy to play as well. I did well with it but if you put G-Dos in a new players hand, they would not know how to play it well but if you do LuxChomp, they would do well with it. SP is way to auto.
---------- Post added 03/30/2011 at 08:31 PM ----------
SP takes like no skill. Sure the mirror takes a little skill but the games still come down to opening hands and top decks. My first time playing SP, I won a lot of my games, even during testing. The deck plays itself. G-Dos is easy to play as well. I did well with it but if you put G-Dos in a new players hand, they would not know how to play it well but if you do LuxChomp, they would do well with it. SP is way to auto.
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Porii Sames
Active Member
Dude...you need to play SP dittos against some good players...
Or play Dchomp vs. Luxchomp. This post is so ffar from the truth...
Kayle
Active Member
I used to argue against this.
As I play the game more and as I read reports, I realize that he's kinda right.
A tournament takes skill, but when you are actually PLAYING the game, it comes down to what you draw and what you can do with it. And at advanced tiers of the game, the deck is simple enough that "game-breaking decisions" rarely even come into play. It's just a matter of who got more out faster.
HGSS on please.
vaporeon
Moderator
I'd like a HGSS format as well. I'd lose some stuff but if it means more can be playable and the game goes back to what it use to be, I'm all up for it.
---------- Post added 03/31/2011 at 03:46 PM ----------
You might be right about that but the fact is that I can play SA after using the deck a few times. Its not hard to figure what cards combo with what, If I were to play a mirror Luxchomp, it come down to who make the wrong move first and still opening hands and top deck play a large part of the game.
The thing about SP decks is that they indeed CAN take skill at times. In other situations, however, they operate with such an advantage that misplay after misplay can be made and it won't change the outcome of the game. Some of the most basic maneuvers an SP player can make (Dragon Rushing a benched threat, Power Spraying Uxie, completely healing a damaged Dialga) have drastic effects on the outcome of the game. These are no-brainer plays, but they can absolutely break a non-SP player. I played Regigigas at a City Championship one time and on two occasions had my Uxie Power Sprayed. I lost those games because of that simple play, something that any decent player would do (as well as most downright bad ones).
In a format that largely feels like a giant game of Paper, Rock, Scissors (that is, matchups are important), SP's contain the lowest amount of risk simply because of these game-breaking plays. Having a Gloom knocked out by a player's 2nd turn Garchomp X w/DCE is game-breaking, no matter how you look at it. Missing out on a 6-card draw because an opponent Power Sprayed your Uxie is, again, game-breaking. Decks currently run multiple Seeker or Trainer lock to deal with it, but you can't deal with it if you can't draw into those cards.
The worst part is that this does have a lot to do with opening hands or cards drawn off an Uxie drop. I lost a game at NC States playing Gyarados against Dialgachomp. My opponent opened with 2 Power Spray and drew a third one as a prize, effectively cancelling out my first 3 Uxie drops. I was nearly able to win that game, but the early game disruption was too much for me to handle. I found myself passing for a few turns and sacrificing Pokemon until I topdecked something. This is not an uncommon story for people to hear. It happens all the time (as does donks). Is it really skill when a single, obvious play almost entirely dictates the outcome of the game? Also, note that SP decks feature many of these game-breaking plays, so that if a player failed to draw the Power Spray they needed to halt the opponent's Uxie, they still may win simply because they were able to snipe/Bright Look the bench so much that they completely destroyed the opponent's setup.
Keep in mind that this also applies to Gardevoir/Gallade back in the day. GG players could Psychic Lock for the entire game and easily win, completely denying an opponent a chance to set up. Or, if a threat did arise, they could one shot it with Gallade and a Scramble Energy. This only lasted for a year, however, and GG took considerably more skill to play than SP (especially in the mirror) since it didn't really win off donks.
In a format that largely feels like a giant game of Paper, Rock, Scissors (that is, matchups are important), SP's contain the lowest amount of risk simply because of these game-breaking plays. Having a Gloom knocked out by a player's 2nd turn Garchomp X w/DCE is game-breaking, no matter how you look at it. Missing out on a 6-card draw because an opponent Power Sprayed your Uxie is, again, game-breaking. Decks currently run multiple Seeker or Trainer lock to deal with it, but you can't deal with it if you can't draw into those cards.
The worst part is that this does have a lot to do with opening hands or cards drawn off an Uxie drop. I lost a game at NC States playing Gyarados against Dialgachomp. My opponent opened with 2 Power Spray and drew a third one as a prize, effectively cancelling out my first 3 Uxie drops. I was nearly able to win that game, but the early game disruption was too much for me to handle. I found myself passing for a few turns and sacrificing Pokemon until I topdecked something. This is not an uncommon story for people to hear. It happens all the time (as does donks). Is it really skill when a single, obvious play almost entirely dictates the outcome of the game? Also, note that SP decks feature many of these game-breaking plays, so that if a player failed to draw the Power Spray they needed to halt the opponent's Uxie, they still may win simply because they were able to snipe/Bright Look the bench so much that they completely destroyed the opponent's setup.
Keep in mind that this also applies to Gardevoir/Gallade back in the day. GG players could Psychic Lock for the entire game and easily win, completely denying an opponent a chance to set up. Or, if a threat did arise, they could one shot it with Gallade and a Scramble Energy. This only lasted for a year, however, and GG took considerably more skill to play than SP (especially in the mirror) since it didn't really win off donks.
Scipio
New Member
One thing I like to consider regarding GG is that:
- GG had a low damage output. 60 for 3 (or 50 for 2, DRE) isn't a lot, and thus won't OHKO fast. Meanwhile, SP pulls 60 for 1, 80 snipe for 2. Goes much faster.
- If GG goes for the big damage, the lock is insta-gone, giving you a chance to get back. SP can go for a powerful hit...and still threaten the lock.
- GG takes longer to set up. Needing at least 2 energy drops and a stage 2 vs a basic X, 1 energy and a tool card...
- There were better draw supporters in the format at that point. Most notably Steven. Oak is all fine and dandy but we just don't have good direct draw. Back then there was Steven, Scientist (I recall GG's hands being bigger when playing vs non-GG) and a few other cards, like even Castaway.
Not gonna downplay GG's chokehold on the format, but it certainly had less of a setup-denial ability as SP does nowadays.
Most of my losses when playing WITH GG was the opponent keeping a bench of 3 and building up a big threat that I couldn't KO late game. That doesn't fly vs SP...
You give GG too much credit
If -- in your logic -- GG only needs two energy drops to attack (with DRE), then by the same logic Garchomp only needs one energy (with a DCE) to snipe for 80 instead of two. Still, I think it's a fair comparison lolSo you know, Japan was still RS-On during our Delta Species days. They didn't rotate out any of the EX series until basically DP's release.
We've more or less NEVER had a format in-line with Japan's.
They often don't even play with the same deck size as us.
I really don't see how "playing like Japan" is meaningful to anyone except maybe people that feel that anything non-Japanese is bad. <_<
Porii Sames
Active Member
Wasn't Crystal Beach in format during the GG reign?
It was, but most GG lists ran Windstorm or other Stadium cards like Lake Boundary or Moonlight Stadium. Cards like Crystal Beach and Cessation Crystal were around, but if the GG players could counter it just once, it usually meant that they'd pull ahead for the rest of the game. When I played in Nationals in 2008 I experienced this first hand. I was running a Blissey/Banette deck with Cessation Crystal and Crystal Beach. I had the lock on a GG player for half the game, then wasn't able to keep Cessation Crystal in play any longer. My opponent proceeded to copy some draw Supporter from my discard (Steven's Advice more than likely), Rare Candy to a Dusknoir, use its Poke-Power to get rid of the threat on my bench, Rare Candy to a Gallade, play a Supporter from hand for more cards, counter my Stadium, then level up to Gardevoir Lv.X and KO the other threat on my bench. He did this in a single turn and afterwards I lost pretty easily.
There was also the issue of modified weakness. Since RR Lucario wasn't around, the only way a player could get 2X weakness was by playing Lake Boundary. But if you're playing Lake Boundary to let your Banette OHKO Gardevoirs and Gallades, you're not running Crystal Beach (Banette being the only Pokemon for a long time capable of even landing a OHKO on a Gardevoir or Gallade).
People hate SP because it is most certainly the Top Tier of the game. When a Top Tier is established over every other deck (not saying it beats every other deck 100% of the time, mind you), it leads to a format that is very unhealthy. Sure, there were lots of contenders in this year's State Championships. Tons of variety. But when you get down to the nitty gritty and look at the winners... the 1st Place decks... well. The only word for it is dominant. SP is dominant. And until Platinum is rotated out, they will continue to be dominant. Because Cyrus' Conspiracy and PokeTurn are broken cards. Obviously, if the same card (Super Scoop Up) for any Pokemon OTHER than SP requires a heads coin flip... well, you know something is awry. Auto-scoop is stupid. Cyrus is a theme-specific version of one of the most broken Supporters ever (Castaway). So. SP is just too good. That is why there is so much SP hate. Oh. And I play Luxchomp. And I win with Luxchomp. So I understand your concern. But... it is cheesy. That is all.
CMsvW
New Member
I like creativity and variety. Seeing 40-60% of decks at almost any tourney I go to be either Luxchomp or Dialgachomp is a major turn off. Half the game is deck building and when someone wins with a deck that is just plain cookiecutter, I don't have any more respect for them if they win the whole tourney than someone who played rogue and went 3-4.
Do I think SP has some unfair advantages? Yes, but it's not TOOOOOO bad (Still bad though). The worst thing about it is everyone conforming and just playing the same stuff.
Do I think SP has some unfair advantages? Yes, but it's not TOOOOOO bad (Still bad though). The worst thing about it is everyone conforming and just playing the same stuff.
But I don't think cookiecutter lists are the problem. We saw the same thing when plox was reigning over the format. Basically every list was played almost exactly the same. A huge gardevoir line with 1 lv x and 1 or 2 gallades. A 2-2 claydol and a 1-0-1 or 1-1-1 dusknoir were also very standard. Same with 2 windstorms, 2 or 3 stadiums, 4 double rainbow, 2-3 scrambles, 2-4 call energies, and some sort of starter basic, whether it was chatot or phione, or whatever we used back then. The occasional muk tech was seen, but other than that, lists only differed by like 5 cards.
vaporeon
Moderator
But GG was only around for a year though. I could have beat the deck with my Pidgeot/Empoleon spread deck if if were not for bad draws. That aside, Luxchomp has been around for 3 years and still going strong and thats the problem. Sure I hate netdeck as much as the next person because it takes legit wins from a skilled player but every other deck out there had a counter part to it.
As a rogue player, I never had problems with a format before or meta before. I was always able to make decks that did well. Sure I lost a game or two but I still made top cut or was a game away from it but this format and the next one are going to be bad for all rogue players and skilled ones and trainer lock, vile-whatever is killing it for all of us.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Luxchomp
Started when DCE came out.
DCE came out in: 2009
2011-2009=2
???
I make rogue decks a lot (not that I play any but one in a tournament). Do they lose to some of the format? Of course. Just...deal with it tbh.
Started when DCE came out.
DCE came out in: 2009
2011-2009=2
???
I make rogue decks a lot (not that I play any but one in a tournament). Do they lose to some of the format? Of course. Just...deal with it tbh.
@ Vaporeon: So... you're agreeing with me. I was just disagreeing with the previous point by saying that sp netdecking, or netlisting, is not the problem because it was not a problem when gardevoir decks were around. You're right, it sucks that sp have been dominating for that long.
But btw, I think vilegar is great for the game. Without a powerful trainer locking deck, the game would be much, much quicker because you could build your deck however you wanted. Trainerdos and trainer heavy luxchomps would be just too quick for everything. But, in order to have a decent chance against vilegar, gyarados and luxchomp are forced to be slower.
But btw, I think vilegar is great for the game. Without a powerful trainer locking deck, the game would be much, much quicker because you could build your deck however you wanted. Trainerdos and trainer heavy luxchomps would be just too quick for everything. But, in order to have a decent chance against vilegar, gyarados and luxchomp are forced to be slower.